Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:36:23 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #422 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. More medieval talk (David Riggs) 2. Re: Trying to contact someone (Kes41355@aol.com) 3. Re: Eskrima defense (Kes41355@aol.com) 4. RE: Blades vs. armour plate (Young Forest) 5. fit tv deadly martial arts (dvljr1@verizon.net) 6. (no subject) (CHRISTOPHER RAMS) 7. Re: Blades versus Armour Plate (Jonathan Kessler) 8. Re: Blades versus Armour Plate (jay de leon) 9. Re: Blades versus Armour Plate (John Johnson) 10. Magellan bites the big one (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:15:41 -0500 From: David Riggs To: Eskrima mail list Subject: [Eskrima] More medieval talk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Its great to hear from someone who studied the japanese arts divorced from many of the current sport adaptations. Thanks for that contribution. There is a lot of false or misleading talk about all arts and cultures driven by ignorance and folklore. I believe the Philipino chain mail was made of whale bone rings. They were purposefully done in imitation of the conquistadores. The region also has rod and slat armor and a lot of woven shields which were used to entangle an opponents spear or sword as well as deflect. I havent heard of that tactic other than the roman scutum and javelin. David On 12/9/05 6:01 AM, "eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net" wrote: > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 01:20:36 -0500 > From: "Jeff Monaghan" > To: > Subject: [Eskrima] Swords and Amour > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Having studied authentic Japanese swordsmanship (Kashima Shin > Ryu) from a Japanese priest from the Kashima Shrine before getting into > Kali it always bugs me how they show swords clashing together, etc. in > demos, etc. Most authentic styles (you can usually tell what style > someone studied by the stance and posture) don't block or parry with the > blade but rather prefer evasion. If it you do parry it is more of a > sliding technique like a bil jee (sp?) attack in JKD where the blade --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:23:35 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Trying to contact someone Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I'm trying to get in touch with someone who may be a member here. His name is Brandon, and goes by the screen name "cutsandbruises," but I just can't remember the name of the Internet server he uses. Brandon wrote to me looking for FMA instruction, but I accidentally deleted his letter before I could respond. Brandon, if you are out there and read this, please write to me soon. I am going to be starting a class at my church after the first of the year, plus will possibly be teaching out of a local school, and doing private lessons again. Sorry about the screw up, but I'm not the most computer literate person you'll ever meet...;-). Anyway, I am teaching again, so if you can contact me, we can get together and discuss it. If any of Brandon's buddies see this, please pass it on to him that I'm trying to get in touch with him. Thanks, Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 08:45:14 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Jeff, I can only speak for my particular system, but you are correct in assuming that in Eskrima we don't clash the swords together when defending against an incoming strike. Our first line of defense, if the situation allows it, is always a Larga Mano type of intercepting strike/defensive motion, in which we simply evade and strike the incoming blow, nailing the hand or arm. This is the most economical way to deal with an attack, puts us immediately on the offensive while it puts the opponent in the defensive mode right away, plus it inflicts pain on the first beat, turning the tide in our favor from the get-go. My teacher, Rob McDonald, is extremely adept at the Larga Mano style, and I was heavily influenced by this. If we are in a situation where Serrada is the more common sense way to go, we will parry/block with the alive hand, and what appears to be a block with the stick or blade is actually an intercepting strike which again, inflicts pain immediately. It's kind of difficult to explain in written form, so to sort of illustrate this, let's look at one of the more common "blocks" in Eskirma/Kali/Arnis, the cross block (also works the same for an umbrella/roof block type of maneuver). The alive hand intercepts and controls the attacking hand, and the weapon, in a cross block position, looks as though it is absorbing the energy from the incoming weapon, but is actually striking the hand on the way in, then positions to absorb the weapon's energy. With a stick, this little rap on the knuckles is very painful, and is a terrific way to turn the tables on the attacker, giving us just enough advantage to take control without a lengthy exchange. With a blade, use your imagination and you can quickly understand the psychological advantage gained when significant injury is inflicted on the first beat in a knife or sword fight. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't want to have to spar around with an attacker, trying to jockey for position is a race that can go either way in a heartbeat. I want the advantage ASAP, and this type of defense is the cornerstone of most FMA's to begin with, the "defanging the snake" we hear so much about. Besides, clashing swords or knives together in the heat of battle doesn't do much to prolong the life of the weapon, and metal can easily be broken when the blows get heavy. Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima In a message dated 12/9/2005 6:35:52 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Having studied authentic Japanese swordsmanship (Kashima Shin Ryu) from a Japanese priest from the Kashima Shrine before getting into Kali it always bugs me how they show swords clashing together, etc. in demos, etc. Most authentic styles (you can usually tell what style someone studied by the stance and posture) don't block or parry with the blade but rather prefer evasion. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Young Forest" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:04:07 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Blades vs. armour plate Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >"In the Reformation armour reached an incredibly advanced state. In fact, >the > >more you know about the complex interweaving of offensive/defensive > >technologies and strategies on the Renaissance battle field the more > >impressed you will be. Using that technology I will without hesitation go >up > >against any blade system out there. It's that good." > >Magellan had the same opinion to the point he felt 30 guys in plate armour >could take on 1000 men without it. Well, if Pizarro could do it against even larger numbers... Badger Siling Labuyo Arnis --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 08:10:42 -0600 (CST) From: To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] fit tv deadly martial arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi guys, I came across the show "deadly martial arts" on fit tv awhile back when they focused on capoiera. It's a show where this 30 or 40- something year old Canadian lady trains in different martial arts. I happened to catch it again yesterday and they did a show on Muay Thai. They covered not only Muay Thai, but also Krabi Krabong. I thought it was interesting enough to pass it on to the group. I did a search on when it was going to air next. Unfortunately, this morning was the last time. Maybe they'll replay it. Here's the link: http://fittv.discovery.com/tvlistings/series.jsp?series=108911&gid=0&channel=FIT Thanks, Jay --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "CHRISTOPHER RAMS" To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 10:25:04 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Actually its available on DVD all 6 episodes in the set...Budo videos sells it...Its an EXCELLANT series Thanks for Your Help Sincerely Chris --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 07:48:16 -0800 (PST) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Blades versus Armour Plate Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net By Magellan's time, armour was already in decline. Magellan's breastplate and open Morion helmet was a far cry from a full suite of plate (which would have been impractical for a marine force, anyway). Also, nobody is saying that a fully plate-armoured fighter was invincible - only very well protected. And that wounds to said fighter would be more likely to come through gaps in his armour, or through crushing blows TO the armour, than through having his armour sliced through. JK Message: 4 Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2005 14:51:02 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: federicomalibago@earthlink.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Blades versus Armour Plate Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From: "Marc MacYoung" >"In the Reformation armour reached an incredibly advanced state. In fact, the >more you know about the complex interweaving of offensive/defensive >technologies and strategies on the Renaissance battle field the more >impressed you will be. Using that technology I will without hesitation go up >against any blade system out there. It's that good." >M Magellan had the same opinion to the point he felt 30 guys in plate armour could take on 1000 men without it. Federico -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 10:02:01 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Blades versus Armour Plate To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I believe the chief you were referring to was Humabon, who was an enemy of Lapu-Lapu. Humabon was at the encounter with hundreds of warriors, but was told by Magellan not to join the fray. Magellan either believed his crew was more than adequate for the fight or wanted to show off Spanish fighting prowess to Humabon. Interestingly, after the death of Magellan, Humabon turned on the remaining Spaniards and massacred some of them, thereby depleting the expedition even more. He had become unimpressed with the Spaniards, who allegedly started messing around with the women. That always does it, doesn"t it? Jay de Leon Ray wrote: > Magellan had the same opinion to the point he felt 30 guys in plate armour > could take on 1000 men without it. But also remember that 'Maggie' screwed up by arriving at low tide which kept his cannon too far from the beach, and the chief that was to help w/warriors didn't show (or didn't help). Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "John Johnson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Blades versus Armour Plate Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 13:42:21 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net LOL, you can slay the men, but don't mess with our women... Peace Out John > > Interestingly, after the death of Magellan, Humabon turned on the >remaining Spaniards and massacred some of them, thereby depleting the >expedition even more. He had become unimpressed with the Spaniards, who >allegedly started messing around with the women. That always does it, >doesn"t it? --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2005 13:04:59 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Magellan bites the big one Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Magellan had the same opinion to the point he felt 30 guys in plate armour > could take on 1000 men without it. > Federico I once saw a movie where an American Indian and a White guy are talking "Well we showed Custer at Little Big Horn" "Why do you guys always bring that up?" "Hey man, it's the only one we ever won" Since Magellan seems to always be brought up, let's take a look at how he bought it. The numbers I have seen range from 30 to 60 of Magellan's men facing anywhere from a 1,000 upwards to 3,000. An eyewitness guessed 1500. Remember aside from the fact that he was supporting one "king" against another, prior to that battle Magellan had been going around burning villages and slaughtering people who wouldn't convert, with, what we can assume, were pretty much the same numbers. He only had 185 guys left when he made landfall in the Philippines and you always leave guys to protect the ship and your base camp. We can assume this "conversion via blackmail and terrorism" campaign he had waged is a) why the numbers of pissed off Filipinos were there to meet him were so large, b) probably why he thought he could get away with it and c) why, like Custer, found a whole lot more locals than he expected. And yes, he was battling out of range of the cannons. (stupid move that, but remember Magellan was a captain/pilot not a professional soldier). Add to this, the matchlock guys weren't normally as well armoured as men-at-arms (who were the guys who were equipped in full plate). Furthermore, sailors tended to be even less well armoured -- if they were armoured at all. Adding to this it was the end of summer on Mactan Island. Remember, the biggest thing that wiped out the Crusaders was the heat. This is important because Europe was coming out of a mini Ice Age at the time so it was even colder. Fighting in hot climates in armour that was designed for use in cooler European temps wasn't fun. That, a beach landing and slogging through tidal flats make me suspect they weren't fully armoured. But basically who knows how much armour these guys didn't have on. While the idea of going into battle only partly armoured wasn't real bright, neither was the entire Mactan Island adventure so we can easily ascribe compound stupidity based on underestimating his opponents. The rate of fire of those old matchlocks weren't that impressive. Neither were crossbows, which were also present at the battle. They definitely weren't enough to stop a mass charge which is why shooters were normally peppered through the pike lines where the pikes could protect them. As you will see, "lances" were also present at Mactan. Whether 30 or sixty, however, with that technology, that just isn't enough men to stand up against approximately 1500 men. Most accounts just mention that he was killed in the battle. But, there is an account of Magellan's death was from Antonio Pigafetta who actually saw Magellan go down. Here are a few of the highlights from his version of the story... Recognizing the Captain (Magellan), so many of them turned upon him that they knocked the helmet off his head twice ... An Indian hurled a bamboo spear into the Captain's face, but the latter immediately killed him with his lance, which he left in the Indian's body. Then, trying to lay hand on sword, he could draw it out halfway because he had been wounded in the arm with a bamboo spear. When the natives saw that, they all hurled themselves upon him. One of them wounded him on the left leg with a large cutlass, which resembles a scimitar, only being larger. That caused the Captain to fall face downward, when immediately they rushed upon him with iron and bamboo spears and with their cutlasses, until they killed our mirror, our light our comfort and true guide. (full text http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan#Death_of_Magellan ) A bamboo spear through armour? This lends credence to the idea that they weren't fully armoured. So might the leg strike. You hit were the guy isn't armoured. But overall what does this account tell us? That being singled out to begin with, multiple wounds, from thrown and stabbing spears, a lost lance, sword not drawn, leg wound and then a lot of folks swarming the guy and stabbing him in the back when he was down is how Magellan bought it. NOT in a one-on-one blade-to-blade duel. That is from an eyewitness. Who BTW was in the process of retreating back to the boats. If a fighting style is going to take credit for whacking Magellan's, more credit should go to spearmanship because they apparently got more strikes in -- especially when he still had the lance The losses range from six to ten of Magellen's men -- including Magellan. Seven being the most commonly stated number. I wonder how many Filipinos were lost because Magellan's troupe had stood there and fired upon them for about a half hour? And while they were fighting their way back to the boats? I suspect it was more than just six to ten. This wasn't the Gates of Thermopolis, where you had to come at them through a narrow pass. So why couldn't such a large number overwhelm even 60 men? These are the things you need to think about before you trot out Magellan as proof of your point. So what does all this teach us? Well one thing: Skill with a blade is one thing, but the technology/equipment and tactics is equally, if not more, important on the battlefield. As such, might we also not scale that idea down to our personal fighting style? You betcha. M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest