Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 17:35:38 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #424 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2200 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Buck/Strider Folder Review (Joseph Marana) 2. The Silk Trick (Peter Gow) 3. Shields (Peter Gow) 4. Superior Technology ??? (Peter Gow) 5. RE: The Silk Trick (Mitch McKee) 6. Magellan Story!! (Marc MacYoung) 7. Families at war (Michael Koblic) 8. Strider Buck (T David Reyes) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 22:54:35 -0800 From: "Joseph Marana" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Buck/Strider Folder Review To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Buz, I have a Strider SnG but bought the trainer version of your 889 from Buck because it is almost identical in profile to my SnG. I had little experience with Buck knives, save for a Cub Scouts slipjoint I had when I was very young. I too was very pleasantly surprised with the quality of the product. While I cannot use my trainer in the same ways you can use your 889 live blade it certainly fits my (training) needs and has reflected very positively on the Buck name. Out of curiosity however, since you had such negative experiences with Buck products in the past what was it that made you purchase another and give Buck another chance? Joe -----Original Message----- From: Buz Grover [mailto:hgroveri@gmu.edu] Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 8:18 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Buck/Strider Folder Review Recently picked up on a Buck/Strider model 889 folder I figured I'd rattle on about. Received the blade fully ready to dislike it; first fixed blade I ever bought was a Buck General, a big, shiny, stamped POS complete with "blood grooves," an exaggerated clip point, amongst other useless features. I cringe whenever I dig that knife out of the bottom drawer much the same way I cringe whenever Black Sabbath comes on the radio: there was actually a time when I thought that crap was cool? Combined with a bunch of other goofy Buck junk I handled over the years and I was well prepared to consider this eBay purchase cash thrown down the rathole. Well hey, it wasn't, though it took me a day or so to be sure. The folder's action was stiff coming out of the box and its odd handle design had me initially furrowing my brow. A day's worth of play loosened the action, though, and the more I handled the blade the clearer it became that the handle design had to do with raw utility rather than designer affectation. There are several features I really like. First, there is a forefinger cutout both at the base of the blade and the fore end of the handle. This allows you to either choke up the handle for fine control or keep your hand further away from the business end of the knife and out of harms way. The net effect is that you end up with a 3 inch blade--legal for carry most places-- with 4 inches or more of reach. Pretty interesting feature I plan to play with. The handle works well in reverse grip both in the choked up position or the more standard one and in just about any grip a nice little nub at the handle's base sticks out enough to enable a good hammerfist strike with it. Both along its angled butt and where the handle meets the blade have had some significant texture machined in, a feature I like as it makes for a sure grip and gives your hand tactile clues about the knife's precise orientation; I really like it when a knife registers nicely in my hand. Indeed, in reverse grip the thumb can lay nicely along the butt, while in a modified fencers grip that same butt sinks into the palm, allowing for a very authoritative thrust. The blade has thumbstuds on both sides that allow a stud opening with either hand and, when open, the studs rest out of the way against the handle. It also has an oval cut in it that facilitates opening the blade by pinching it and throwing the handle into the palm, my preferred way to open a folder. Combined with the well textured handle, the blade would certainly pass the "can you open it wearing a muddy glove while hanging on a rope with your clothes caught in a rappel device" test. I've several complaints about the knife. The enamel on the blade looks like it was applied unevenly, a problem likely more esthetic than functional, though it did catch my eye. The clip is on the butt end of the knife where I like it, however the fact it's attached to a flat slab leaves it pressing against my hand in a way that bugs me. As mentioned, the slab handles are well textured, so much so it feels like you could grate a lemon against 'em. Indeed, digging in the pocket for keys with the knife clipped in the pocket can get downright painful. The blade is pretty deeply hollow ground, which makes for a sharp knife that can slash quickly and deeply, but also makes the edge more susceptible to wear and tear. I usually use my carry folder as a paring/utility knife, but between the hollow grind and the grip texture I'd be afraid that extended use would ding the blade and tear up my hand. Was about to pull the clip off and carry the knife loose in my pocket when I clipped it to the waistband for appendix carry; the knife proved to carry amazingly well in that manner. Normally appendix carry doesn't work for me when I sit or drive, but I forgot the knife was there no matter what I was doing. It really surprised me how well the knife carried IWB at the groin. It does print a little carried that way, probably not enough to catch the girls' eyes at the disco, but it's there. The knife retails for about $80 and you can find 'em on eBay for around $45. This strikes me as a bit steep; suspect a premium is being paid for the Strider name and indeed a similar full blown Strider produced folder goes for around $350 and forget about finding one cheap on eBay. The 889 compares well with the CRKT Ryan model 7 and may have a leg up on it, though the Ryan can be had for about 1/3 less. All in all a blade I'm glad I took a chance on, I'll be interested to see how it stands up over the long haul. Regards, Buz Grover _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:09:41 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The Silk Trick Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net bgdebuque, No this is a very old trick that was used in many lands. Firstly you obtain a large square piece of silk or a long silk scarf.Then you secure the silk by the two top corners/points and let the rest of the silk hang freely. The silk then becomes impossible to cut if a person tries to strike/slash at it. The reason for this being that as you slash at the silk you push the air in front of you( for those with no physics background it is similar to a boat travelling on the water it pushes the water in front of it), the air being pushed then pushes the silk out of the way of the sword  as the silk is so light, so that the sword never slashes the silk. The only way that the silk can be cut by a slash or thrust is if all four corners are secured tightly. Best Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:17:54 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Shields Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net David Riggs, Apparently the Okinawans used woven shields with skins thrown over them for exactly the purpose you described - to catch spears anmd swords of the opponents. Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 10:36:13 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Superior Technology ??? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, Point taken - We will never know the real truth but if I was Lapu Lapu I would have used bamboo spike traps in the sand as it is not very likely that armour would have been worn on the soles of the feet on a beach landing and if it was it would have made movement and manourevering hard if the bamboo was just covered. Also have you considered the fact that the Spaniards would have to keep face when making the report to Spain. It is really sad that time and time again through history all we ever hear is the propaganda of the victors and that is what our history is based on. Take hadrians wall in England - The Romans built it to keep the Scots out calling them barbarians, the fact is that the Scots fought using their knowledge of the country-side and used guerilla warfare attacking and retreating over and over again even attacking at night through the marshes as their knowledge enabled then to travel through this terrain. The Romans being unfamiliar with the terrain and the style of fighting withdrew from Scotland and built the wall to keep the Scots out. Now while the Romans had the superior technology they were not used to the style of fighting adopted by the Scots and it went down in history that they were barbarians. Could it be that the Scots were superior fighters and that the Romans lost too many men and could not buy their way out as they did with the Visy-Goths? Who Knows? Regards, Peter Gow Australia.  --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mitch McKee" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] The Silk Trick Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:49:47 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This works with bullets as well. Mitch -----Original Message----- From: Peter Gow [mailto:gowp@hotmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2005 5:10 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Silk Trick bgdebuque, No this is a very old trick that was used in many lands. Firstly you obtain a large square piece of silk or a long silk scarf.Then you secure the silk by the two top corners/points and let the rest of the silk hang freely. The silk then becomes impossible to cut if a person tries to strike/slash at it. The reason for this being that as you slash at the silk you push the air in front of you( for those with no physics background it is similar to a boat travelling on the water it pushes the water in front of it), the air being pushed then pushes the silk out of the way of the sword as the silk is so light, so that the sword never slashes the silk. The only way that the silk can be cut by a slash or thrust is if all four corners are secured tightly. Best Regards, Peter Gow Australia _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2200 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:08:39 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Magellan Story!! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "Jorge Penafiel" > 4. Just think only five guys surrounding and hacking someone with big > blades > or whatever weapon. It would be difficult without hitting each other as > Pigifetta reported he saw numerous natives doing so to their fearless > leader. If you read the account you will see that spears seemed to be doing the majority of work. Which in the context of spear vs. lance fighting makes sense. Again take a look at pike tactics to realize that spearmen, swordsmen and shooters DID commonly work in closed ranks -- especially with the stabbing and throwing applications of spears. Furthermore you wouldn't be swinging your blade horizontally to kill someone on the ground, you'd be chopping and stabbing down. Nor would a spearman be prevented from stabbing over a bladesman's shoulder. So you could get a whole lot more than five people doing a hatchet job on a downed body. While still fighting on their feet, it is also credible that the "weight" of the Filipinos focusing on one spot in the line would have caused it to buckle and break as they were retreating. Common to fighting in line is that the men on either side protect your flanks. If broken free from that line, it is easy to be surrounded or at least put in a horseshoe. But also remember that with spears present, three people shoulder to shoulder could easily put their stabs into an area of only one foot. Like the spokes of a wheel the outer diameter is a whole lot larger than the hub. And yes, the bladesmen would be a danger to the spearmen IF they were swinging wildly behind them. But do you really want to take that big of a swing when facing an armed opponent? Or would you rather keep your weapon more in front of you? > Besides, only eigth men were reported dead. Jeez,,, others must have run > and > swam so fast with armors or not and just left Magellan behind. You misunderstand the nature of a rear guard action. Ever rowed a boat? Ever rowed a boat in tandeum with other people? More importantly, ever rowed a boat into the surf? Boats that can carry a number of people don't move that fast intially and have to be handled and the rowers have to get in position and the oars out. Even now, jumping in a car and turning on the ignition takes times -- which is why running to your car to get away doesn't work. Rowing out into the surf takes a whole lot longer. The rearguard action was to slow down the attackers, so these things could happen. If everyone hit the boats all at once they would have been overwhelmed by the attacking force before they could get in "start the engine" and "start to drive away." The rearguard holds off the attackers long enough and then jumps into the "car" as it drives away. >At the time of > slaughter Magellan was seen to have his sword half drawn. Man,,what was > he > thinking - sun bathing on the beach or going to battle.. The "lance" (or a pole arm) is a two handed weapon. It was commonly used to extend range and keep enemies back. The advantage of distance that you get, you pay for by having to use both hands. If you read the account, Magellan's lance got jammed in the body of the guy who had just put a spear in his face. Not an uncommon event in battle using these kinds of weapons. If this account is even close to what happened, his distance weapon was ripped out of his hands and before he could draw a closer-range weapon (sword) he was rushed and overwhelmed. This is feasible whether or not he was wounded in the arm. To get a better understanding of Western warfare tactics you might want to view some video of SCA (Society of Creative Anachromism) type "wars" instead of individual bouts. You can Google it. You will begin to see why this account of his death isn't all that unbelievable. Even if it is -- or sn't -- entirely accurate. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 14:26:53 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Families at war Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Working from memory here, didn't Mag-man supposedly have a step-son or son or some relation that was in trouble so he stayed back to try and help him out? " This reminds me of my favorite story involving familial combat: In the 1340's there was a king called John of Luxembourg. He was nominally a king of Bohemia, but did not like it there and preferred, well, Luxembourg. As a result he got involved in the French war against the English and thus in the battle of Crecy. The only slight problem was that he was - blind! He went into battle with his horse tied between his two sons. The story does not tell us if the sons had to guide his sword hand by saying "Left a bit, up a bit, now hit him dad!", or how it really worked. The outocome of the battle is a matter of historical record: the English long-bowmen kicked the living bejesus out of the French knights. When our king was warned that things were going pear-shaped and it was perhaps time for a "tactical relocation" he uttered one of the more famous sentences in the Czech history: "God-willing no Czech king will ever run away from battle!" and continued on. Surprisingly, he got killed. His eledest son, Charles, was pulled off the field with several injuries. He went on to become Charles IV, a Holy Roman Emperor and the greates king Czechs ever had. Unlike his father he liked it at home. Sorry, no Filipinos in this story... Michael Koblic, Campbell River, B. C. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2005 16:46:55 -0800 From: T David Reyes To: Subject: [Eskrima] Strider Buck Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > the more I handled the blade the > clearer it became that the handle design had to do with raw utility > rather than designer affectation > The knife retails for about $80 and you can find 'em on eBay for > around $45. This strikes me as a bit steep; suspect a premium is > being paid for the Strider name and indeed a similar full blown > Strider produced folder goes for around $350 > I clipped it to the waistband for appendix carry; the knife > proved to carry amazingly well in that manner. Normally appendix > carry doesn't work for me when I sit or drive > I'll be > interested to see how it stands up over the long haul. Indeed, as with the other pure Strider model designs, they are purpose driven. Having had the Buck version in EDC for the better part of the year now, the SBMF has proven itself ten fold for the $35.00 paid shipped. The blade itself, is quite short and really isn't best suited for SD, but it will do in a pinch, as the SBMF/889 seems better oriented for field use and daily chores. Takes a wicked edge too, starting with the sharpmaker and finishing with a loaded strop with jewelers paste, however the "shaving sharp" edge doesn't hold very long even after the lightest of chores probably due in part to the 420HC steel. Having a custom kydex sheath with a belt clip will take the weight down a bit from the usual pocket carry and makes for quicker draw in that the deep checkering of the grips don't hang up inside the pockets lining, as well as always having it at the ready when sitting, driving, etc. All in all a great blade for the money, and though it won't replace the AR or the SNG for the real heavy duty stuff, for those looking for a overbuilt tank of a knife that locks up like a vault, and so far has held to every task it was given, the SBMF/889 will surely fit the bill IMHO. Thanks for your great review. Best Regards, David Reyes --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest