Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 03:01:35 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 12 #431 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Tonfa (Arndt Mallepree) 2. Tonfa (lunghsing@aim.com) 3. Steel -v- Steel, etc. (Ollie Batts) 4. Silk and Kevlar (Peter Gow) 5. Tonfa and Wing Tsun (Peter Gow) 6. Re: Magellan bites the big one (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Arndt Mallepree" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tonfa Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 12:01:26 +0100 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for this information. The Kobudo Tonfa isn´t a round stick like it is the Monadnock PR24 sidehandle stick. So it is easier to hold it on the side handle while blocking. No my particular question is: If an opponent attacks you with an # 1 strike using a stick, how would you block it? Would you rush into him or would you use an angle 45 to move towards him? Or would you even zone away and attack him when his strike failed you? I am familiar with switching the grips and the use of the axe typ gripp. We are not allowed to strike with the stick in this gripp!!! But we can of course use it to do the rest of possible things like f.e. lock, tie ... >From my point of view, it is best to follow the force instead of meeting it! This I would do with a step into the male triangle. I was till today very succesfull using this. Arndt Mallepree IFCM Chief Instructor Lakan Guro Level 5 Kali under Guro Dan Inosanto ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2005 1:59 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tonfa >i have taught tonfa to LEA (law enforcement agents) here in florida. > i have practiced japanese shoto-ryu karate-do since 1970... > in 1992 i was granted the godan rank (5th dan), certified in japan. > i also hold a sandan rank (3rd dan) in kobudo (okinawan > farm-tool/weaponry). > the tonfa was once used to destroy an oponent who had a sword. much like > spain came to the philipines, japan decided to make okinawa their own. > the > satsuma samurai sent there, demanded taxes on land already owned by the > farmers. > if payment was not given, they took what they wanted, raped your wife, > daughters and younger sons, maybe even killed the farmers. all bladed > weapons were > taken from the farmers to avoid a revolt. like the filipinos, the farmers > taught themselves to use other means (farm-tools). the tonfa being one of > them. > strikes were to the head (crown, temple, philtrum, maxillary jaw-hinge), > the > collar bones, the back of the hands, fore-arms, elbows, ribs, knees, > shins, > ankles, toes, etc. it could block a sword and smash a skull in the hands > of a > skilled individual. it was also taught in a short amount of time, not > like > today, where it is drawn out (the longer it takes, more money is made). > i do not teach the standard okinawa kobudo techniques which i learned > in my 35 years of japanese/okinawa martial arts training. standard tonfa > techniques would get many of my friends investigated for police > brutality! > i teach a method of flipping so the tonfa can go from the standard grip > to > the axe-type grip (holding the opposite end of the handle and using the > handle > to pull in or hit with it). any questions, i am always willing to help... > -raymond alamo, shihan > chief instructor, > densetsu kuken karate-do shoto-ryu, u.s.a. > southeast region/florida > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 10:31:14 -0500 From: lunghsing@aim.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Tonfa Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, We used to use the PR-24 at but went to the AutoLock baton for, basically, ease of carry. The impact weapon is only useful if you actually carry it and the side handle baton was such a pain that most of us left it in the car. That includes me and I'm an instructor. There are many locks and controls taught in the Monadnock syllabus ( including the much-dreaded "Georgia State Police Takedown") but I don't think I ever saw one used in the 10 years or so we carried the PR-24. When it was employed, the primary technique used was the power spin. And you could clear a crowd pretty quickly with this simple action. The freakiest thing I ever saw was an officer whack a suspect in the calf with a power spin and the calf, literally, exploded. We had to transport to the ER before county jail and the ER Doc said it was a real mess because the flesh tore instead of being cut. I also noticed that the blocking actions tend to overextend the defender and make him susceptible to fakes. The blocks work really well against a committed strike, even with a two-handed baseball bat style swing. But these hard style blocks would be ineffective against multiple stabs or a quick abaniko. Back to lurking, Steve ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:54:58 +0000 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Steel -v- Steel, etc. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Following the recent topic I contacted Master Armourer Christopher Dobson again and posed the question about Armour and Swords. This is his reply: "...in answer to your question, we know that the ground after a battle was usually littered with broken and discarded armour and weapons. Naturally this was of so high a value that it was carefully collected by those in possession of the field after hostilities had ceased. That is why we so rarely find pieces from battlefields, apart from river finds or pieces that fell into castle moats for instance. I currently have in the workshop a helmet whose owner did not survive the damage inflicted upon it. The (current) owner is having me repair it, but not for a while, so if it is still in poor condition the next time I see you, I shall bring it along, together with the sort of weapon that did the damage. Being of no practical use anymore, it was discarded. Incidentally, the reason Henry V killed many French noblemen who had already surrendered while the battle of Agincourt raged on is that in surrendering they had only given up one gauntlet each (a token gesture helping to identify them to their 'owners' for ransoming them later) and their swords. The ground was carpeted with discarded weapons, and when the Dauphin's men attacked the English camp, although they had given their parole, Henry was worried that temptation might prove too much for those prisoners. "Going on to blades, they were re-used and re-used as long as they could be. When a sword blade was too nicked, over-sharpened or broken to be used as a sword anymore (or the shape was no longer practical or in fashion), it was cut down or re-forged into a dagger blade, and so on down to a knife. Small pieces could be re-forged and pattern-welded back into full-size blades, or the plates of a brigantine or jack (flexible fabric covered armour stuffed with many small plates). remember that to avoid serious nicking of edges, many parries were made on the flat of the blade, and the classic (and wrong) idea of warriors cutting edge to edge didn't really happen. "Hope that answers your question! "And hope to see you before Christmas too!! "Best regards, "Chris" --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 01:05:57 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Silk and Kevlar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net bgdebuque, I think the Mongols took the use of silk from the Chinese. Ghengis Khan was into sacking and destroying anything not Mongolian until one of his advisers advised him that peking(Beijing) had some intersting war implements devised by the Chinese. On this information he spared the city and set up based to investigate these devices. Whilst there he discovered many facets of Chinese cultute - medicine, written language and knowledge of many other things. He incorporated some into the Mongolian way of life as can be seen in the modern day Korean society - the Chinese characters. Koreans are supposed to be the decendants of Ghengis Khan. bgdebuque the item that you mentioned regarding the Thai police using silk as a substitute for kevlar sounds very interesting. Do you have any more information on this? As I am positive that many people in this forum will be interested. Galang, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2005 01:09:41 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Tonfa and Wing Tsun Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Arndt, Are you saying that Sifu Salih Avci who teaches Wing Tsun teaches the tonfa as part of his Wing Tsun ? Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2005 23:56:05 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Magellan bites the big one Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What I tried to share with you is an honest-to-goodness tactical analysis of the battle. It was not intended to glorify any personality, culture, race, religion or martial art style over another. Personally, I consider the Battle of Mactan as the birthplace of modern FMA. It was the first time in history where the two Fathers of Modern FMA met each other in combat - indigenous Filipino blade vs. the Spanish blade. There is no question that Magellan was a great soldier, sailor and explorer. There is also no question, however, that he also violated certain basic principles of combat in Mactan. In fact, he paid for such miscalculations with his most precious possessions - his own life and (probably) that of his own son. I personally believe that by trying to learn from his mistakes I will be indirectly honoring the ultimate sacrifice he made in the battlefield. Besides, he died a warrior's death. He went down in style. Few of us will probably get the same opportunity... =[:->] -- __--__-- Message: 3 From: Uwe Weber To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Magellan bites the big one Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2005 22:41:56 +0100 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net bgdebuque schrieb: > > 3. Advantages in the level of fighting skill and weapon technology > are not absolute, beyond a certain treshold, it can be overwhelmed by > sheer numbers. I am not sure that we are doing Magalhaes justice here. Parts of this discussion look like he was just a fool, arrogantly underestimating his enemy (like Custer) and therefore easily beaten. But he was Portugal's greatest hero of the time, known for his courage and fighting skill. Attacking much larger number of enemies was something he did quite often. He saved the battle of Cananor for Portugal, where eleven Portuguese ships fought mor than 200 Arab vessels. He was known as the 'Hero of Diu', where he personally led a small group of soldiers on board of the ship of the Egyptian admiral, Hussein the Invincible. They captured the ship, took Hussein prisoner and won the battle. During the battle of Malakka he led the decisive attack over the bridge from the Chinese quarter into the Malay quarter. The report I have read about this, shows him beginnig the attack alone against heavy artillery fire and attacking elephants with his lance. He was wounded many times, one time fighting the Arabs in North Africa. This wound crippled one of his legs. During his last fight he is first wounded in the leg. I do not know, whether he was wounded in the crippled leg or in the other one, but think about it: What does that mean for hist stance, his footwork? Only eight men are still with him, the others have fled. His group is retreating and the enemy is concentrating his attacks on M. He looses his helmet two times, but neither does he run nor does he try to surrender. One man is able to wound him with his spear in the face. M. kills him, but looses his weapon and is then rushed and killed before he can draw his sword with his wounded right arm. If the Spaniards that were with him had stayed with him and fought, who knows how the day would have ended. But there were mutinies and conspiracies from the Spaniards against M. during the whole voyage. Regards, uwe --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2005: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest