Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 03:01:42 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #25 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Logic vs. reality (Marc MacYoung) 2. (no subject) (SiliIrishman@aol.com) 3. Re: Curved Sticks... (nephalim1@netscape.net) 4. Re: East Bay Area Eskrima (James Kovacich) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:21:15 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Logic vs. reality Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dave Wong refers to >> From "Logic of Steel", page 166: >> "The blade is often unseen and unfelt" >> >> After the author relates an incident in which the defender managed to >> seriously wounded two of his attackers with multiple stabs but didn't >> alter >> the course of the altercation at all. Okay, I'm going to have to tip my hand about a forthcoming project about knife work to address this. The problem is that without considering the bigger picture (i.e. what is involved here) many people will come up with a 'logical" answer to this issue based on the info they have. Unfortunately, most of the conclusions that arise from the "he might not know he was stabbed" idea will result in you getting raped in prison. And that is the happy version. In order to understand why this is a far more complex issue than many people think we're going to have to step out of knife world and look elsewhere. First off a knife doesn't have the "stopping power" of a rifle. In fact, most handguns don't have the same 'stopping power' as a rifle, which is what the interest in (and money spent in development) specialized ammo for handguns is about. The question is "How can we get handgun ammo that has the same "stunning" effect as rifle?" is a hotly debated (and financed) argument in shooting circles. A layman's explanation for why this is such a hot topic is found in Marshall and Snow's "Handgun Stopping Power" (which for honesty's sake I must tell you is the source of a massive donnybrook in the shooting world, but I like it because a retard like me can understand it). Giving a super short and condensed version, "stopping" power is the effect that a bullet has on the human nervous system. A slug from a high powered rifle creates a funneled shockwave within the liquid and flesh of the body. Of the many things this shockwave effects, one is the reticular activating system (RAS). This is a specialized part of the nervous system that -- for us old timers -- creates a "tilt" effect within the human body. For you of more tender years this is the equivalent of a fast power black/brown out that causes your computer to reboot. So-called 'stopping power' is that the shockwave -- not the bullet -- "flicks the guy's lights off" for a second. Without his nervous system working, his muscles -- which hold his skeleton/joints in place -- cease their support and he collapses/staggers/stumbles. This is why when you shoot a large animal, it usually staggers or drops. It is not the force of the bullet that is knocking it over. It is this brown out effects on it's nervous system -- EVEN if it reboots within the next second and the sucker gets up and runs. It will still be able to function...to some degree or the other. Right here we are cruising into a swamp of problems. There is a BIG...did I mention big?...difference between lethal and effective. As anyone who has had to track a wounded animal can tell you. If you gave the future inhabitant of your freeze a lethal wound, the sucker is going to die, just not as quickly as you'd hope. It IS a lethal wound, it is just not an effective one. (shooters have a term for this, but I use effective for a variety of reasons). It is (usually) the RAS that puts it down. Again, super condensed rule of thumb: If the damage is sufficient then it doesn't get up, if it isn't, it will get up. This occurs even if it is fatally wounded. An effective wound is one that prevents the target from further functioning. Keep in mind that the two are not synonymous Now in a combat situation you really want something that is effective. You need something that is going to stop his ability to be an immediate threat to you. This is why the lesser RAS effect of handguns is such a topic of concern to shooters. Many people have discovered that they are in a bad horror movie where they shoot the monster without seeming effect. It is in the moments that the 'lack' of defensive capabilities of a gun comes to glaring attention (e.g. you can't block with a pistol). Furthermore you don't want him to recover from the shock of the RAS and still be able to function in the future. And as much as self-appointed intellectuals may hate this idea the best way to achieve this is to be both lethal AND effective. This is why the military gets all the cool toys. Howwwwwwever, despite all the references and use of the term, the average civilian will never find him/herself in 'combat.' For the sake of this discussion, let us define combat as 'two parties mutually agreeing to risk life and limb in order to kill the other through the most effective means possible.' The last two thirds of that sentence are very important, because there is BIG difference in the mindset of someone who calmly and knowingly steps forward into combat and someone who, in a rage, decides to kill you. A rule of thumb in most Western countries is: While he may want you dead, he isn't usually willing to die to achieve that goal. That last statement is as important for your 'self-defense' strategy as knowing a knife does not have the same stopping power as a rifle. There is a massive difference between the commitment of someone who just wants to kill you and someone who is willing to engage in combat. Now while cyberwarriors may huff and puff about this idea let me tell you from personal experience, it's bad enough to have someone who wants to kill you. But if you want a truly sickening and horrible realization, it's when you are facing someone who is willing to die to take you out. -- and he's charging you. You are dealing with a level of commitment that is unimaginable -- until you see it. To this day, the memories create "love handles" with me (my a***ole puckers so tight my ears are pulled down to my hips). Generally you don't see this kind of commitment among people raised in Westernized countries...not even among the slums. You will still see it among third world denizens, certain ethnic criminal circles and tribal societies. It is times like these that you really, really, really want stopping power. "Come on RAS, baby needs new shoes!!!!" or as a Marine fresh back from Iraq said to me "Thank gawd for the 50 (caliber)" Which brings us back to knives not having a major effect on the RAS. The reason so many people think they have been punched when stabbed is because -- in essence -- they have been. It is the stabber's hand hitting them that stops the blade's forward movement. The same goes for getting hacked or slashed, it is the knife hitting the bone that transfers the shock. The three types of damage a knife can cause are penetration (stab), incised (slash/cut) or chop (hacking). The damage however, will be different than that of a bullet, which aside from the RAS shock, creates all kinds of tearing, pulling and compressing of the flesh in and around the path of the bullet. Bram Frank's old emphasis on bio-mechanical cutting is a good starting point to understand the technical aspects of the damage knives do. (Do I believe it should be the basis of your knife work? No. But you need to know about it). Now I have personally seen people get stabbed, slashed, cut, etc., etc., and still function. But then again I have also seen them get shot by handguns and do the same. However...and pay special attention to this next part...whether they continued to fight or attempted to withdraw or simply 'stalled out' depended on the situation. Knowing this critical factor is why the "logical answer" that many people come up with when it comes to "people not knowing they were stabbed" is going to get you thrown in prison or mauled. Their idea of a logical answer is to turn into a human weedwacker on the guy. So let's take a look at this idea from a bigger picture perspective. In essence I have seen people, when stabbed, attempt to turn and flee. I have seen people stop and try to figure out what is wrong. I have seen people continue attacking. But most importantly, I have seen people change from offensive fighting to defensive fighting. Now this can be because they don't know what is wrong, but they know something isn't right (the guy was so busy fighting he doesn't realize he was cut, but now his brain is sending him signals that something is funky). In this kind of situation his attacks begin to falter and fall apart. Yeah, he is still attacking but generally the tide is turning as he realizes that something isn't kosher. On the other hand, what I have seen more in these circumstances is that the guy knows something is way wrong and he begins to attempt to fight a withdrawing action. It is here that an important shift occurs. That is he is no longer attacking, he is now DEFENDING. Now for the record let me state, that IF you, in your hyper and adrenalized state keep on pressing him, not only have you turned into the aggressor, but you are forcing him to continue to fight. In order for him to survive he must still continue to function. This is one of the biggest bones I have to pick with most knife training, it is going to set you up so you see the guy in front of you. Your little froggie brain is going to still see the guy as a threat...for no other reason than he is still right there in front of you. And that means in your adrenalized state you are still going apes**t on him -- even if the dude is trying to turn to flee. Now if a knife had the same RAS impact as a rifle, the guy would politely collapse and your froggie brain would say "Okay threat gone." The fact that it doesn't, however, puts you in danger of inflicting what is known in the forensic biz as "defensive wounds." This is why so many self-defense claims with knives are challenged -- even if they started out a legit SD situations. "Okay if you were defending yourself like you claim how come he has slash marks on his back? And oh yeah, how come the video tape shows you not only turning to engage, but advancing too?" Oops. Thing is from your froggie brain perspective he STILL was attacking. What's more is there is a good chance that your training will not only encourage this misconception by teaching you to turn and reorient on the guy, but in fact, MAKE it a truth. The guy IS still a danger because by turning and closing you are forcing him to continue to function. But now in a defensive capacity! Now that brings up an entire other can of worms, which my experimentation with the physics of defensive actions against blocks that are designed to work against offensive actions has created within me a massive sense of "uh oh!." Short version, y'alls in as much danger -- if not more --chasing him as you were when he was attacking. But that's something I have to work out the physics in order to explain exactly why. So in conclusion here is what I have learned from all this studying. "In most self-defense situations: Let the dishes soak." Let him realize, like mice and men, that something has "aft gan aglay" Better known as his plans have gone down the toilet. Not having an RAS effect, it's going to take longer for the damage to take effect, especially because of his adrenlized state. Give it time. After all chitlins isn't one of the biggest strengths of FMA the footwork? Use it, buy space, boogie on over yonder and give him time to realize that something is funky in the state of Denmark. And guess what? If he's cut and is still stupid enough to try to keep on attacking....you can do the "*whistle* C'mon boy, chase the Frisbee!" routine. Wanna see how far he can chase you while bleeding out? If he runs, he is only going to bleed out faster. Now I know that when I say this I there are going to be people who will respond with the "What if you can't get out of the way?" First off, I don't believe in rattlesnake cornered (the US rattlesnake is so stupid that it can be cornered in an open field. Which incidentally explains why they are so often killed for this tactic). Unless you are fighting Doc Oc from Spiderman, odds are you can wiggle your way out. If you can't figure out how, then you have a legitimate beef with your guru about what he is teaching you. Second, if this is truly the case then the answer isn't in your knife and the damage it can inflict. It's in what else you do to remove his ability to attack you. And if you don't learn this critical detail, you're gonna die. That's because the damage you can inflict with a knife at that range isn't going to be enough to stop him from taking you out while flailing. So you better focus on getting his weapon systems off line instead of expecting damaging him with your knife to do it for you. This is another thing to pester your guru about. Like I said I have a new knife project coming out where these ideas will be discussed in greater detail. But this should be enough to make you go "hmmmmmmm." and start looking down other pathways to understand the full scope of the complexities. M --__--__-- Message: 2 From: SiliIrishman@aol.com Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:25:59 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I,m re-locating to Oakland in San francisco at the end of the month and would like to find any Arnis/Escrima groups that I could train with, I would really appreciate any help that would point me in the right direction, also does any one out there have any info on the Llanera Escrima/Saykan system, thanks J. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 18:14:35 -0500 From: nephalim1@netscape.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Curved Sticks... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Andrew Astle wrote: >Tongkat Soempat that were hand made by Pak Victor, which I treasure. >There is a great deal of wonderful technique in this ferocious art! >Guro Andrew Astle Tongkat and Soempat. These two words seem closely similar to two Tagalog words with similar meanings. Tungkod for cane and Sumpa for swear/curse. Can anyone verify this? Jose __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:57:55 -0800 (PST) From: James Kovacich Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East Bay Area Eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Not exactly Oakland but not that far from oakland. http://www.inayanmartialarts.com/ --- SiliIrishman@aol.com wrote: > Hi all, > I,m re-locating to Oakland in San francisco at the > end of the month and would > like to find any Arnis/Escrima groups that I could > train with, I would really > appreciate any help that would point me in the right > direction, also does any > one out there have any info on the Llanera > Escrima/Saykan system, > thanks J. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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