Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:38:22 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #33 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: silat videoclip (Steve Kohn) 2. Re: racism in disguise? (Steve Kohn) 3. okapi, ratchet, seville (noirpalm) 4. Fouling a blade (Bandile Dlabantu) 5. S.A kniffings (Marc MacYoung) 6. Re: okapi, ratchet, seville (Ray) 7. Re: S.A. Knifings/Piper (Afern27@aol.com) 8. Piper system (Ray) 9. Piper and other knives. (Peter Gow) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:20:07 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] silat videoclip To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The majority of the material presented in this clip looks like Guru Dan Inosanto's curriculum. It kinda sucks that they use the word "kill" in their logo. Whatever. -Steve Kohn Ray wrote: FWIW... http://www.mubai.cc/silatmubai-introvid.WMV Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 21:22:33 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] racism in disguise? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Amen to that. -Steve Kohn RichaCec@aol.com wrote: What I got out of the thread was that he was trying to learn about a potential opponent (crouching tiger hidden dragon). No racism in that. Somebody always has to pull the race card. Suck it up. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 05:42:29 -0800 (PST) From: noirpalm To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] okapi, ratchet, seville Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I know quite a few people who can open them very fast with a flick depsite the ratchet, I never really made the effort to learn the trick. Its interesting to know that its based on a spanish sevillian knife. I think Robert Loriega had a book on sevillian knife maybe I'll look it up. --------------------------------- -- __--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:24:46 +0000 (GMT) From: Bandile Dlabantu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Opening the knife Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The blade is carried closed and is only opened when it will be used. For the 907E they have a locking system so are not so popular because they are slow and tedious to open. The 1979 range can be opened with with a flick of the hand. Guys even file the locking system and loosen the knife for an easy draw. The knives cost R20 about $3 so damaging one is not such a loss. -- __--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:17:25 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Okapi or Ratchet Knife Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The knife looks like a modern-day copy of the Sevillana. The multi-racheted Navaja from the Seville region of Spain. I think the best ones are still the ones made in Seville. Might be priced in the $150 and above range though. --------------------------------- Bring words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Yahoo! Mail. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:42:36 +0000 (GMT) From: Bandile Dlabantu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Fouling a blade Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The song is by Damien Marley , title "Welcome to Jamrock" All who not lock glocks, them a lock rocket Then will full you up a current like a short circuit Them a run a roadblock which part thr cops block it And from now till a mornin not stop clock it If the run outta rounds a brought back ratchet Guys just a question do people in the Phillipenes or any where foul their blades. I have seen guys dip a blade in rotting meat or a sewage drain. In prisons sometimes they do what they call a slow puncture where they first dip a blade in HIV infected blood then use it on a prisoner. It is a sick thing I must say and the reason why I will never risk getting cut. --------------------------------- Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 05:44:07 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] S.A kniffings Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I was skeptical until I had to get stiches for my wounds. To really see > the reality of street knife fighting one should forget ab't martial arts > it not a martial art it is a guy using a knife to rip your guts out. That > is way different from any dojo I have ever been in. > Question when is the last time you killed a guy with your knife, or better > yet when have you had someone coming at you with a live blade with an > intent to stab and kill you? In S.A almost everyday people are faced with > that reality and thinking like a martial artist will get one killed. > I know piper works because I have seen it work, I have not seen a FMA > having to parry dodge and retaliate from a guy trying to puncture him. At > any betting game I'll put my bet on the piper guy > By the way I am not a Piper person or expert, just one who know what it > feels and looks like to get stabbed. Most Piper expects are mostly in jail > and the guys who were second best are dead. > Bandile I've remained quiet about this topic, but I think it's time that I chimed in here. First off I've seen the so-called "Piper system" When it first surfaced, there was some concern among law enforcement instructors here in the States that it might come to the US and Europe. I was contacted by Nigel and Lloyd in regards to figuring a way to combat it. So were a number of other knife "experts" around the world. Their sales pitch was "Hey, this is what we are facing how can we combat it?" It was presented as if not an organized, then at least a recognized and practiced approach to knifework among the SA criminal/prison world. Claiming it's roots were in the Zulu stick fighting system, they also claimed that it had been influenced by knife fighting systems from the South Pacific by immigrant laborers. One of the individuals claimed it had been taught to him -- as a system -- by family members who had criminal tendencies. And it was very much sold as a well known and accepted part of the SA criminal world. Having said this I will also categorically state that SA is indeed a violent and dangerous place, where knives are routinely used. So there is absolutely no doubt that getting robbed, killed or raped in SA is a real possibility. It is this last fact that initially gave the idea of the "Piper system" credibility. However, when dealing with cops you must understand two things. First is that they are an untrusting lot. In fact, they could have coined the term "If your mother says she loves you, check it out" Second, is that they gossip among themselves like old women. This goes triple for anything out there that is a danger to them. Word spreads fast about things that can kill them. Now being a member of a couple of police training organizations and also having contacts with various trainers it should come as no surprise that I know people who have contacts in South Africa law enforcement circles. I sent it down the wire to get their input. Cracks first started appearing in the "Piper system" when, upon contacting them, the response came back that they'd never heard of the "Piper System." Yes, they'd seen attacks like that, but it didn't have a name nor was it an organized knife system. Upon deeper checking, this was also confirmed by SA correctional officers, none of them had heard of the "Piper system" Interesting because it was promoted as how SA criminals routinely killed prison guards... The second crack appeared when upon reviewing the tape my friends and I -- who incidentally have just a little bit of experience with people trying to play show and tell with our vital organs -- began to come up with counters to the displayed knife attacks. Now mind you, at the request of those who had contacted my about this "new" fighting system, I duped and forwarded the demo tape to some people who are...well, let me just say they're some serious pieces of real estate. In other words, these guys aren't your normal Tuesday and Thursday night martial artists. Their response was, in essence, "That's pretty damned scary. You'd just have to kill the S.O.B." Now that is not a technique, but rather a strategic response. As professional killers they recognized when it was time to go back to work. What they also recognized, however, was that while what they were viewing was horribly -- and I do mean horribly -- effective on offense, it was weak defensively. In short, it wasn't so much a "fighting" style, but instead it was a murdering/torturing one. (One that would, as advertised, eat the lunch of most martial artists if they tried to "fight" it). The response we received set the bells off. Basically it was, "We are the keepers of this knowledge. We will decide what does and doesn't work against the Piper System. Pay our way to come to the States and show us what you have come up with and we will take it back to SA. Furthermore, after paying our way there, pay us to teach the system before you are qualified to tell us how to counter it" (One of those four sentences is an exact quote). Now I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night. The tone of the response set all kinds of bells off about these folks motives. A Swedish martial arts magazine "Fighter" did a review of just such a seminar where someone took them up on their offer to come and teach. http://www.pipersystem.com/UrbanShield/a10_piperarticle.html On this side of the pond though, the final stake in the heart of the credibility of the Piper System came when a well known and respected LEO trainer here in the States viewed the tape and got back to me and identified it as a variation of -- I believe -- Pekti-Tirsia"picking" techniques. Little more strum und drang, but he'd seen the basic moves before. The final conclusion is that, while SA criminals DO habitually use knives to commit crimes what was being called the "Piper System" was more of a marketing creation than an actual knife 'fighting' style. Like Jailhouse Rock here in the States it "borrowed" the credibility of the criminal/prison population's reputation for violence for its marketing and advertising. It's representation of how criminals actually do things -- and across the whole of SA-- however, is questionable. Having said this, let me point something else out. What is being promoted as the "Piper System" is not a martial art, nor is it even a "fighting system." It is murder, plain and simple. It's effectiveness is by and large dependant on shock and surprise. You ambush the guy and then proceed to torture him with a barrage of "woodpecker" attacks from countless different -- and unpredictable -- angles. I would also like to point out that it relies on the shock and awe response that someone, who unexpectedly finds themselves assaulted by a knife, will commonly exhibit -- namely stepping backwards. Attempting to "fight" such an attack will only result in the person -- well let's say that it would be like trying to fight a swarm of bees armed with razors. This is why people with experience with unhappy times looked at it and shifted gears into "just kill him" mode as their tactical response. Could the average martial artist survive against this type of attack? No. But that's not because their training is insufficient, it's because they can't shift into "combat mode" fast enough. Anyone attacking in this manner is too dangerous to let live. Safety is found in killing him immediately and without hesitation. Unfortunately, the best application of this type of attack is against unarmed and/or someone whose weapon is not deployed and ready. In short, trying to draw your own weapon when unexpectedly attacked with a knife is going to get you killed. But that is hardly unique to this style of attack, it is a generic CQC problem. This was the concern for the police, who's primary mode is 'dealing with civilians,' not gunning down criminals in the street as their first answer to a problem. Could they "shift gears" fast enough to survive? Or would they attempt to retreat and draw their gun? It turns out that the SA police are a whole lot faster to drop the hammer than U.S. police and often approach criminals with guns already drawn, so their death rate by knife isn't what the marketers of the Piper System were claiming. The problem here is not so much technique, system or style, but the knifer's intent. And that is what makes any attack along these lines dangerous, not what "style" he knows. In conclusion, if you were stabbed in South Africa, a better explanation is that it was by a criminal attack, not by someone using the "Piper System." M --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] okapi, ratchet, seville To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 06:09:05 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Its interesting to know that its based on a spanish sevillian knife. > I think Robert Loriega had a book on sevillian knife maybe I'll look it up. Fyi... ---------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eskrima: Sevillian Steel On my flight back from Ohio I read the book Sevillian Steel: The Traditional Knife-Fighting Arts of Spain, by James Loriega (a member of the Eskrima-Digest list). An excellent read! Well researched, excellent bibliography, and so well written that it is difficult to put the book down. Of course this book or any other will not make you an accomplished knife fighter, but the historical, cultural, and personal references spread throughout this book make it a must read. IMHO. Paladin Press, 1999. ISBN 1-58160-039-9. Ray Terry ---------------------------------------------------------- Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 16:36:17 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: S.A. Knifings/Piper Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 2/1/06 4:02:58 AM Mountain Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Question when is the last time you killed a guy with your knife, or better yet when have you had someone coming at you with a live blade with an intent to stab and kill you? Me personally? Never, on both counts. But our Filipino martial arts predecessors did, many many times. And left us a legacy of what works and what doesn't, based on their practical experience. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 13:44:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Piper system Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net fwiw, I was contacted maybe three years ago now about this Piper System and how to defend against it. After careful review I simply recommended a reduced Inayan RKD (Reactive Knife Defense) approach, esp with the LEO's assets in mind. Thus far the feedback I have received is that they are happy with my recommendation. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2006 22:32:34 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Piper and other knives. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bandile Dlabantu, Thank you for all the info on the knive. Another item of interest concerniong knives is that many years ago whilst travelling in Thailand I came across a two knives for sale in the market place. One of the knives fired three blades. Yes fired like a gun. The owner of the store showed me how at a distance thes knives could fire a blade and embedd the blade into a lampost - an impressive demonstration. The other knive was a spring activated flick knive where the blade shot forward and locked into position. This type of knive was commonly used in fights  with a punch the activating button being pushed when the attacker was close to the opponent, causing the blade to penetrate the cheek, stomach etc. The knives are common throughout most of the developing asian countries as are bodies found in rivers that have multiple stab wounds. Here in Australia, we have had an upsurge of the use of knives, machetes and swords mostly used in fatal circumstances, robberies and rapes. The upsurge has been so dramatic that you now need a permit to purchase a sword or machete. Whilst the permit sounds good it has had IMHO no effect at all in combating the use of the knife in murders, robberies and rapes. Part of the reason being that you can buy a kitchen knife from any coles, kmart, safeway, aldi, camping shop, second hand store and the internet not to mention any general tool store without any questions asked.   Best Regards, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest