Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 09:10:28 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #34 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Weapons in Australia (Michael Koblic) 2. Piper vs Piper Systems (Bandile Dlabantu) 3. Real Pippers (Bandile Dlabantu) 4. have you ever killed question (Bandile Dlabantu) 5. Poisoned blades (Gilmour, Julian) 6. Carlson Gracie, Sr., RIP (Ray) 7. Piper - FMA point (Steven Lefebvre) 8. Re: Real Pippers (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2006 17:16:51 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Weapons in Australia Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Here in Australia, we have had an upsurge of the use of knives, machetes and swords mostly used in fatal circumstances, robberies and rapes. The upsurge has been so dramatic that you now need a permit to purchase a sword or machete. Whilst the permit sounds good it has had IMHO no effect at all in combating the use of the knife in murders, robberies and rapes. Part of the reason being that you can buy a kitchen knife from any coles, kmart, safeway, aldi, camping shop, second hand store and the internet not to mention any general tool store without any questions asked. " It sounds like your powers-that-be are going down the same road as they did with guns. I just got our gun club bulletin with the stats on gun crime in Australia which, according to their information, has gone up since the firearms ban. Is this correct? The other point is that knives are whole lot easier to make than firearms. If one has a truly criminal intent and wants to arm oneself with a blade all one needs is a piece of iron and minimum tools to make a usable item. It will not be a $400 piece beauty but will kill just as well. This makes the ban on knives even more ineffective than a ban on firearms. Michael Koblic, Campbell River, B. C. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 09:14:21 +0000 (GMT) From: Bandile Dlabantu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Piper vs Piper Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanx Marc I first need to make a distinction between Piper and Piper Systems. "Piper Systems" is a name used by Nigel February for their system of knife fighting. It is a standardised method that draws from their experience with Cape flats Kniffings, traditional stickfighting ( not neccesarily Zulu) and martial arts. They teach it as a method of combatting and understanding crime. I have talked to the guys and am quite interested in what they do but like I said I don't train in Piper Systems. Please hear me correctly when I say I know Piper works I don't mean Nigel February's Piper Systems what I mean is Piper as practised in the townships. Piper is one of the tsotsi taal ( prison ganster slang) terms used in prison to describe a method of stabbing. To be specific it is used by the members of the S.A numbers gangs ( 26, 27, 28) see http://www.csvr.org.za/papers/papjonny.htm Other names are Ghonni, Melah or Kapi which discribe the tool same as escrima describes the stick or Savate the shoe. "Zulu stickfighting" first things first , there is no difference between Zulu, Xhosa, Shangaan, Ndebele or Swazi stickfighting. The Zulu stickfighting is purely a western creation the "legendary Zulu" brought about by the battle of Isandlwana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana . Reality, Zulu put up a fight against the British for less than 30yrs the Xhosa did it from 1779-1879, the Sotho were never defeated. Its just that they weren't blood thirsty psychopaths with a low regard for human life. hence did not qualify for the "Noble Savage" title neccessary for tourism. The other influence in fighting methods is Malay slaves and political prisoners (1700's), not migrant labourers. Most of them were Sufi Muslim freedom fighters from Java and Malaysia. One of the historic journals in the Cape is a vow by an Imam to bury his Kris in the then Batavian Colony of the Cape. There are also numerous cases of a Malay slave running amuck and killing people with a knife. Another extant remnant of Malay influence is in a religiuos ceremony called Khalifa that looks a lot like Silat forms. I learnt how to use a knife from guys who lived in the neighbourhood. Most of them had a background in Boxing, Judo, karate etc so they showed me ways of introducing the okapi into my fighting. They did not teach it as a martial arts system but as a way of avoiding getting stabbed. They called it Ghonni because piper is a name strictly used in prisons. Most South Africans know about the Okapi and stabbings as something that happens in the townships. South Africa is a dangerous violent place.......,PLEASE that's CNN bullshit, I live here and I'm quite safe. It is where you are that determines you risk of experiencing crime. Unfortunately for us crime is often experienced along racial lines, middle class ( mostly white people) will experience mostly carjacking, robbery and Black, Asian and Coloured people who live in townships will experience mostly stabbings, assault. Now the reason why South African cops come with a drawn gun is simply because they are afraid of being stabbed or shot. The fist question they will ask is " Does yous haf a vepon" One officer stands a bit further with a gun drawn and they will search around your waist for a gun in you back pocket and wrists and socks for a knife. If you are black, indian or coloured and happen to be carrying an Okapi they will beat the crap out of you. The so called Proffesional killers were right Piper is murder it does not focuss on defence. It is used to turture an opponent until they panick allowing one to get in with a killing blow. The reason for not focussing on defense is because one is working on a short time window. Now trying your stripping blocks etc will result in stabs in your arms and a loss of fingers. Most township people know that the best defense for a knife attack is to 1. run away, or as they say leave skid marks on the floor 2. Use missiles mostly half bricks and rocks to stop a person from getting close, or as the locals say "Throw him with a baksteen" 3. Get a club, baseball bat ( strange in a country that doesn't play the game), a knobkirrie. 4. Get a gun to shoot him in the head and pack your prison bag. The prevelance of knife fighting in S.A is mostly towards the Cape arrear ( East, West and North) there are incidents around the North Eastern regions KZN, Mpumalang, Gauteng etc. In the North people mostly use guns because of the influks of immigrants from Rwanda,Nigeria,Angola, Mozambique who bring low cost ammunition into the country. There are various differences to how people do things in S.A what one would expect from a country with eleven official languages and about twenty more spoken. So to say there is a standard method that people use is just crazy. Piper Systems people are from the Western Cape, I grew up in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu Natal yet i recognised what they did. Even friends from Gauteng who have never been to the Cape know what it looks like when it is real. This is because the First the frontier wars brought alot of African warriors into the goals of the Cape and Natal where they came into contact with Cape malay prisoners and hence a sharing of ideas. also see the article for the mythology of the formation of prison gangs. Secondly migrant labour where people were forced to go find work in towns and here they experienced township knife fighting and used stickfighting to counter. Their children picked it up and introduced it to township knife fighting. A good case is my family, my grandfather was a champion stickfighter and his son my uncle did stickfighting when he was younger but he picked up knife fighting by default. Thirdly we had Apartheid which forced people into over populated townships and resulted in a lot of angry young black cloured and Indian men landing up in prisons. One had a lot of young people fighting soldiers with sticks, stones, malatov cocktails, knives, machetes and other home made weapons. These were arrested and sent to prison also. So ask yourself what would posses a rational human being to attack armed soldiers, police and military tanks with such ancient weapons. Because they knew how to use them. Marc is right most people simply say just kill him Hell it's the only way but I personally like the avoidance route. S.A a favourite way of getting guns is to take them from cops sometimes they even rob Police stations for ammunition. This means in a lot of townships, the Cops simply don't come ( they are too scared), people have to learn to beat the criminals on their own game. Yes they do get killed a lot and in prison entry into the 27 gang involves killing a prison warder guess what is used. Criminals stab people and call it Pipping not Piper Systems people. The Piper Systems people are learning so they can avoid getting killed. I have noticed something quite interesting about Mr MacYoung you seem to be quite an expert in things you haven't experienced . I was never encouraged to trust such a man. If ever get to S.A go try your killing techniques in Phoenix, Umlazi ( Natal), Soweto, Lenasia, Aldos ( Gauteng), Cape Flats, Khayelitsha ( Cape Town), Korsten, Zwide, Malabar ( Port elizabeth) etc. Then you can tell me something about how people use knives in my country. --------------------------------- Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter now. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 10:09:25 +0000 (GMT) From: Bandile Dlabantu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Real Pippers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here is some stuff from people most likely to use a knife on you. It is important I believe in order to understand the mental universe these guys come from. I'm sorry to say they aren't the bosbefok "experts" or "Proffesional Killers" nor do they have connections like those consulted by Marc. Bosbefok,is an S.A. military term I will not translate http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/1298829.stm , Pollsmoor is in the Western Cape. http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s297039.htm http://www.thesoutherncross.co.za/features/gangs3.htm http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/sjrp/publicat/prisgang.htm http://www.csvr.org.za/confpaps/salo.htm --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:00:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Bandile Dlabantu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] have you ever killed question Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Me personally? Never, on both counts. But our Filipino martial arts predecessors did, many many times. And left us a legacy of what works and what doesn't, based on their practical experience. Thanx for this most honest reply. The reality is when the hit is on instinct shifts in and you revert to what is natural to you. After many years of weak fighting stratergy what is natural can result in your death. Just a couple of stories one by a friend and training partner at varsity. A middle class young man and martial artist from Zimbabwe I asked him a question " What would you do if someone pulled a knife on you" his reply was "I'd do something unpredictable" another guy jumped in saying "yeah as unpredictable as shitting your pants". Second story was when I was learning from granddad. He was showing me various ways of attacking the head triping and incapacitating a stickfighting oponnent. One of his childhood friends was there and they were talking about what they used to get up to and showing scars. They used to have full contact stickfighting hitting each other in the head with knobkiries . They didn't care much about getting killed or serious injury. I would be stupid to try that nowadays because guys die from stickfighting The world they lived in was different thine mine. They had to fight many many times and hence developed many interesting methods and approaches to fighting that got passed on to me living me a legacy. He had interesting ways of dealing with various weapons from axes, machetes and knives and they worked for him. So having said that he left me with a simple message, to never take his experiences as my own, instead to get my own. What I experience now is more important than when he did sixty years ago. Bandile --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 12:18:39 -0000 From: "Gilmour, Julian" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Poisoned blades Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bandile Dlabantu wrote: "Guys just a question do people in the Phillipenes or any where foul their blades. I have seen guys dip a blade in rotting meat or a sewage drain." In the series Mind, Body and Kickass Moves that was shown in the UK, they had several features on FMA. One showed the preparation of poisoned blades using small but highly poisonous spiders. When put in the hot liquid alive, they kept trying to escape and the FMAer (whose name escapes me, but it was a name I was familiar with ) just kept throwing them back in. It prompted the presenter to query whether more people had been killed making the stuff than have been killed due to the wounding :) Empty your cup (of poisoned spiders) Julian ############################################################################# ######## This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by NetIQ MailMarshal The recipient of this email should ensure that it is virus free. We do not accept any liability for any virus that may be conveyed with this email. ############################################################################# ######## --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 06:04:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Eskrima] Carlson Gracie, Sr., RIP Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Carlson Gracie, Sr., considered in Brazil as the greatest fighter in the > world during the 50s and 60s, passed away earlier today. > > He was in rough shape last night after passing a kidney stone and was found > to be suffering from a liver infection. > > After Helio Gracie suffered a broken arm in his final fight against a > younger Brazilian in the late 50s, younger brother Carlson avenged that > defeat and defeated many others to earn the symbolic claim as the toughest > fighter. > > He is the father of Renzo and Ralph Gracie and uncle of Royce, Rickson and > Royler Gracie. Carlson had run the Carlson Gracie Jiu Jitsu Academy in > Chicago and was the coach of Stephan Bonnar. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Steven Lefebvre" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2006 14:13:08 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Piper - FMA point Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello guys, Bandile - "I know piper works because I have seen it work, I have not seen a FMA having to parry dodge and retaliate from a guy trying to puncture him. At any betting game I'll put my bet on the piper guy By the way I am not a Piper person or expert, just one who know what it feels and looks like to get stabbed. Most Piper expects are mostly in jail and the guys who were second best are dead. Bandile"Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #32 However, someone from Piper, an expert - did write something about an FMA, and it was quite favorable. They sounded quite open to it. See Below: Lloyd De Jongh wrote about Sayoc Kali: "Nigel asked me to say that he's watched The Hunted several times, and he was very very impressed with the choreography. From that alone he could see where Sayoc uses principles that are lacking in other Filipino systems. He was especially impressed by the improvised weapons scene. " "You (Sayoc) guys have a few small things in your website text that I recignise as "real", that sets apart the theoretical systems from systems based on blood and hard experience. I think we use different terms and such, but we are really on the same page most of the time. We just get confused with some issues. " "Due to the different movement patterns within the cultural base of each method, very nearly all of the typical FMA flows/parries/blocks/traps/disarms/footwork will fail. They will put you straight into expensive care. We can't use them. Those few we can use need extensive modification. However, I can still, based on my experience over time, recognise the good from the bad, the real deal from the theoretical. Sayoc is good stuff. It is the real deal, and I am open to learning more. Regards Lloyd " Anyway, Train Hard it is the Way! Gumagalang Guro Steve L. www.Bujinkandojo.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2006 08:44:05 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Real Pippers To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Unfortunately, where extreme poverty, oppression and despair exist, such people will always exist, not just SA. During my time, similar gangs existed in Muntinlupa and other prisons in the Philippines, most notably the OXO and Sigue-sigue gangs. Who know what gangs rule the prisons nowadays. Jay de Leon Bandile Dlabantu wrote: Here is some stuff from people most likely to use a knife on you. It is important I believe in order to understand the mental universe these guys come from. I'm sorry to say they aren't the bosbefok "experts" or "Proffesional Killers" nor do they have connections like those consulted by Marc. Bosbefok,is an S.A. military term I will not translate http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/correspondent/1298829.stm , Pollsmoor is in the Western Cape. http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s297039.htm http://www.thesoutherncross.co.za/features/gangs3.htm http://web.uct.ac.za/depts/sjrp/publicat/prisgang.htm http://www.csvr.org.za/confpaps/salo.htm --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest