Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:00:33 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #78 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: padded gear (Daniel Arola) 2. Relaxed learning, adrenal learning (Marc Denny) 3. FMA Judging !! (Jorge Penafiel) 4. Pain and a Rapped Knuckle (Peter Gow) 5. Regarding "Clarity..." (grapple00@netscape.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 01:24:07 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] padded gear To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Right on Ray. I couldn't think of any better way to say it, but you just did and I wholeheartedly agree. Maraming salamat po. Daniel Arola Ray wrote: > For those who "think" it's so COOL to spar without gear, take a look at > this link from the... Not so much that it is cool as it is just a necessary evil if you really want to experience what real full-contact is like. We don't do it every week or even every month, but if you don't see what it is like (best with an opponent you can trust) you'll just never know. imho Plus, it may also help you appreciate the beauty of non-linear footwork... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 05:27:49 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Relaxed learning, adrenal learning Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: A review the conversation so far, and then some comments: > From: "Van Harn, Steve" > From: neercsemantwelve@aol.com wrote > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] WEKAF & Padded Sticks > "Careful of generalizations. Remember WEKAF is a sport aspect, not > survival. > Just because defense was not displayed does not mean the fighters don't > possess it. Besides, the rules dictate the action. A lack of defense can > be negatively scored however the rules state "greatest #of effective > hits". The competitor is going to adapt to what will win. It is a > competitive sport. And not all fighters show a lack of defense while > winning. The better fighters will do both." > " i pretty much disagree totally. if you are training wekaf style > pretty much the majority of your training/sparring is going to be > geared to that. there is nothing wrong with this. but that is sport and > not fighting. when you train like that under adrenal circumstances when > you're in a real altercation those actions trained under those adrenal > circumstances are what's going to happen. if you train TKD for tkd > tournaments then compete in thai boxing what fighting tactics are tou > going to throw- this is vice versa- if you are training thai boxing for > lumpinee stadium fight then enter a tkd tourney what fighting tools are > you going to bring with you?" > Well Francisco, we'll have to agree to disagree then. > Yes, of course competition is under an adrenal state. But not your > training. You learn nothing and change nothing under an adrenal state, > only make the same mistakes faster. Your body learns best and retains > best in a relaxed state. You can use what you experience in the adrenal > state as feedback to alter your training but you cannot make changes at > full speed. True, pain from a rapped knuckle can be a good motivator but > not the fear of the pain. If you are training while in fear of getting > hit, your body is half shut down from allowing itself to learn. You can > still learn but slower. > And who said we train for WEKAF or "WEKAF style" whatever that is? We > compete in WEKAF. Why? It's a good avenue to try out things in an > adrenal state, same as other avenues. Just another way to test yourself > and where you're at towards reaching one of the attributes that is part > of your goals. > True, if you set a goal for yourself of only winning and being perhaps > only a good "WEKAF style" fighter, perhaps your generalization may be > correct. > And how would you have any idea of what the majority of mine or anyone > else's training consists of? > However, If one trains for TKD tourneys AND lumpinee stadium fights > would not both tools be available to you? Are you saying tactics are > automatic and not a choice? That's not tactics, that's reflex. , , , > Steve Interesting thoughts in play here. FWIW here's how I put it together: Skills are best installed in a relaxed state, but more must be done to have them appear in the adrenal state. I belieive I understand the point being made by Steve when he says "You learn nothing and change nothing under an adrenal state, only make the same mistakes faster" and agree for what I think Steve has in mind-- but disagree with the statement as it reads. IMHO whatever it is we experience in the adrenal state is some of the deepest and most powerful learning that there is. Perhaps this non-stickfighnting example will help communicate my point: One of the things I have been working on in the last couple of years is applying Kali-Silat skills in the context of MMA, what in DBMA we call "Kali Tudo"(r). When faced with a MMA type opponent, the overwhelming majority of people, even those with tremendous FMA skills learned in the relaxed state recommended by Steve, simply are unwilling to try using those skills against that opponent and instead use similar type skills. Why? Is it because FMA/Kali-silat type skills don't work against worthy opponents when the pressure is on? Although it may be what many practitioners ulitmately believe in their heart-of-hearts when the adrenaline is pumping and dumping, I disagree. I think it is because in the adrenal state, we will tend to do that which we have experienced successfully in the adrenal state. For most people, that is some sort of kick-boxing/Muay Thai/BJJ/MMA type of skill set. Yes? Those of us who are willing to bring our Kali skills to this situation tend to be those of us who really have hit people with these skills in stickfights because we have truly LEARNED which of these skills work for us by experiencing them adrenally. The adrenal experience teaches us what it is we need to learn when we train in the relaxed state. Thus, some intelligent relaxed training to understand the conversion of the skills to empty hand and we are ready to begin testing them. The concern presented I think by realtively painless adrenal tournament fighting, (especially when done successfully!) is that it installs certain unsound habits, tactics and techniques on a very deep level. This too is learning and is an example why I disagree with the statement "You learn nothing and change nothing under an adrenal state, only make the same mistakes faster". Does this makes sense? Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 11:55:57 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] FMA Judging !! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To: Jorge Penafiel, all, In regards to the statements about counting the # of Hits during a match as it affects the outcome, how is this done? Is there one "judge" to count each competitor's hits or is it a general feeling of who "did more successfully?" I could imagine double sticks raining down on each other full speed would be quite a blur. === Greetings Lance !!! With regards to your inquiry above, here's what is basically going on out there with FMA tournaments, at least to the ones I helped judge. 1) Tournaments that Counts the number of Hits - One center referee who controls the fight plus two side judges are needed. The side judges counts for either the Red or Black fighter as designated. Each is provided a "clicker" to count what he perceived as effective hits as define by the tournament rules. Round (2 to 3 depending) Counts are submitted each time to the scorer who tallies for the match. Disarms/takedowns are plus or minus points to either of the fighters. For certain,,,the judges here should be learned and trained beforehand to avoid or lessen the inconsistencies and anomalies in their scoring especially in a fast-paced or double stick bouts... 2) Arnold Classic - One center referee and 3 side judges are needed. Side judges scores it like "boxing" bout for the one (w - 10 pts/ L- 9 or 8 points)"who did more successfully" in each of the three round fight. The score cards are then collected for the final count. Plus or minus points for other stuff are also set for by the rules. This one I prefer for it's simplicity and consistency. Hope this help. ++++ To Steve VAn Harn - And to Master Jorge - "There is a place for this in our hearts." - Marvelous! Thanks and regards !! Jorge V Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 22:47:32 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Pain and a Rapped Knuckle Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve, You wrote "True, pain from a rapped knuckle can be a good motivator but not the fear of the pain. If you are training while in fear of getting hit, your body is half shut down from allowing itself to learn. You can still learn but slower." The following are additional thoughts I have had regarding the above statement, they are not aimed at anyone but are for your consideration as this is a discussion. 1. Whilst the above statement may be true doesn't this vary from individual to individual. 2.Your awareness after being hit becomes heightened - awareness of body part that is hit, delayed awareness of surroundings(perhaps not if you are hit on the head and would be dependant on the force of the hit), delayed awareness of other body extemities.  3.Another point is that after being rapped on the hand wouldn't you tend to be more cautious and slow down in your training. 4. Student has learnt one technique that works effectively and fully understands the ramifications of using the technique. 5. A deeper respect for FMA and the teacher. 6. An effective technique when teaching to stop the young bull syndrome. Galang, Peter Gow --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2006 18:19:06 -0500 From: grapple00@netscape.net To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Regarding "Clarity..." Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Atty Diony and Gm Cacoy aren't getting along too well these days. Diony is Cacoy's nephew and former student, but... Diony has Doce Pares International, http://www.doceparesinternational.com. Cacoy has Cacoy Doce Pares World Federation, http://www.docepares.com. So there are two Doce Pares organizations. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com" Thanks Ray. I knew about the 2 organizations, but wasn't to sure what the relationship was. It's a shame, though... My sifu had a great time and learned a ton o' stuff. __________________________________________________________________ Switch to Netscape Internet Service. As low as $9.95 a month -- Sign up today at http://isp.netscape.com/register Netscape. Just the Net You Need. New! Netscape Toolbar for Internet Explorer Search from anywhere on the Web and block those annoying pop-ups. Download now at http://channels.netscape.com/ns/search/install.jsp --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest