Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 21:58:19 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #79 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: No reason to be in a real fight (bgdebuque) 2. adrenal states (Q) 3. Skill vs. Skil sets (Marc MacYoung) 4. IPMAF Kombatan Activities in the Bay Area (Alex.France@kp.org) 5. Re: adrenal states (Djinji Brown) 6. Re: adrenal states (neercsemantwelve@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 02:32:11 -0500 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] No reason to be in a real fight Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For me, tournament fighting, regardless of the level of contact, is still just another form of training for any MA practitioner who is a not a professional fighter. It is not the "real thing". While it is important that we should train as realistically as possible, it is even more important that we should not incur any permanent physical injury while undergoing training. If you lose one eye, for example, as a result of the non-use of protective eyegear, it will be quite obvious that your chances of survival in a "real thing" situation will be considerably lower as compared to a situation wherein both of your eyes are still functional. As can be inferred from the military training tenet: "The more you sweat in training, the less you bleed in combat", we are supposed to sweat in training, not bleed. > > Message: 10 > From: "Jorge Penafiel" > To: > Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2006 22:07:24 -0500 > Subject: [Eskrima] No Reason to be in Real Fight!! > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > "Francisco Taruc > p.s. > hopefully there's no reason to be in a real impact weapon vs. impact > weapon > fight." > ---- > > Exactly !!! In FMA impact weaponry training, despite all the myriads of > techniques, drills, and sparring, we (most) hope that for no reason/s > don't > want to be in any situation/s of a "real" fight. Yes,,for personal intent > and > purpose we are basically in MA primarily to learn how to fight.. However, > as > one goes deep into the art, a "True" martial artists will abhor fights. A > good first rule of self-defense and the understanding of the consequences > of > an altercations. > Agree to disagree, the reason why MA Tournament had come about. Sure, it > is > business motivated, sport oriented and show-casing a none realistic > definition > of a "fight". Somehow, it is sufficient enough more or less to exhibitb > some > of the combative aspects of MA. It is geard for the individual amusement, > test of some measured skills, satisfaction, and a friendlier/legal/fun > venue > for competition. Its a great release for our macho mentality and > adrenaline > sort of with no worry afterwards. To expect other things beyond this > definition of MA activity is your preference and focus of training.. There > is > always two sides of the coin... > My thoughts !!! > Jorge Penafiel > > -- __--__-- --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:14:31 -0800 (GMT-08:00) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] adrenal states Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Well Francisco, we'll have to agree to disagree then. >> Yes, of course competition is under an adrenal state. But not your >> training. You learn nothing and change nothing under an adrenal state, >> only make the same mistakes faster. Your body learns best and retains >> best in a relaxed state. You can use what you experience in the adrenal >> state as feedback to alter your training but you cannot make changes at >> full speed. >Skills are best installed in a relaxed state, but more must be done to have >them appear in the adrenal state. IMHO >whatever it is we experience in the adrenal state is some of the deepest and >most powerful learning that there is. >Does this makes sense? >Crafty Dog Alot of good points here. Regarding Kali Tudo I do not think the problem is resting or adrenal state learning. The problem with Kali is that 90% of kali practitioners know kali as a total package but train 90% stick and never really have either been taught or make the translation from empty hand to stick. Heck, DBMA if it has proved nothing else it has proved that most do not know how to put power into a stick hit. When that is trained 90% of the time with stick how can we expect the same practitioneer to have the body mechanics needed to do it empty hand? I have a different take on the "adrenal state". IMO the real value in the adrenal state is the speed of learning and application. Adrenal state learning gets you there faster and forces focus. Under those conditions you either succeed or fail. Adrenal state learning is just another training method but must be constantly changed to achieve adrenal state for the psychological benefit is derives. That psychological "stew" is different for different individuals. The adrenal training method is constantly being changed just like resting drills are changed in an attempt to fine the ideal teaching tool. There is no question that fine tuned motor skill learning can be learned in the adrenal state. Anyone who has raced a car knows this. If you don't have talent behind a wheel it takes years to get fast on a racetrack while driving your personal 10/10ths highly adrenalized from the very first day. In car racing while the track venue may not change the speeds that you personally travel you are constantly trying to increase and that keeps you in the adrenal zone. On the racetrack at those speeds in the adrenal zone is where you have your classroom to learn to be a successful race driver. In racing there is no resting state learning and there is always fear of death. I can tell you first hand that more people died from ameteur autoracing last year than martial arts training. How is fuctioning in the adrenal state any different than any other thrill sport or saving a life on the brink of death in an ER? I posit to you that those who function in the adrenal zone in more varied circumstances are better able to function in the adrenal state in a new circumstance because they know what it feels like often. Martial arts taught in the typical past way was mostly taught in resting control and barely cardiovascular with little real contact. Why?...so practitioneers don't get hurt. This same problem happens in shooting sports. We are taught to be be focused and controled on range so nobody gets hurt. Under pressure these experianced people can't even draw their guns. We have many gun schools today that teach in the equivelant venue of MMA today to put the adrenal back into the sport. Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. 4305 Torrance Blvd., Suite 102 Torrance, Ca. 90503 310-371-2337 603-710-6393fax Cosmetic General Dentistry --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 10:17:09 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] Skill vs. Skil sets Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: "Marc Denny" > Skills are best installed in a relaxed state, but more must be done to > have > them appear in the adrenal state. I belieive I understand the point being > made by Steve when he says "You learn nothing and change nothing under an > adrenal state, only make the same mistakes faster" and agree for what I > think Steve has in mind-- but disagree with the statement as it reads. > IMHO > whatever it is we experience in the adrenal state is some of the deepest > and > most powerful learning that there is. Hey Marc, Let me throw something in that might help you develop what you're wrasslin' with. Last week I was running up my phone bill with Peyton Quinn talking shop and I spent Friday at a Dave Grossman lecture and the issue about adrenalin, stress and training is pretty fresh on my little pea brain. Two books I heartily recommend people read are Freedom from Fear by Peyton and On Combat by Grossman/Christensen. There is a whole lot of research being done on this subject that blows "conventional wisdom" out of the water. Something that we developed in this neck of the woods a while back is the distinction between skill and skill set. There is an important difference, but a whole lot of people think that if you have one you have the other. I disagree. And once you begin to separate the two you'll begin to see how important the difference is and where you need to start with stress inoculation training. A skill set is, in its most basic form, a learned process and its implications. Instead of FMA, I'll use driving as an example. Driving is, in essence, only three different skill sets. Steering, braking and accelerating. Let's take braking as an example. The skill set of braking doesn't just involve slamming your foot on the brake. That's just an action. What makes braking a skill set rather than an action is that you have to learn the scale. You have to learn how hard you need to press the brakes at different speeds to stop at different distances. This is very much a feedback loop and training a person to think/process a certain way. As anyone who has had the heavy drinking inducing experience of teaching a teenager to drive, you know that you are either doing the thumper dance (your foot hitting the imaginary brake) in the passenger seat, or you are holding onto the dashboard to keep from being thrown forward. That's because the teenagers haven't perfected the skill set of braking yet and they don't understand the concepts/physics involved. Nor is the ability to process the required information ingrained through experience yet. As an experienced driver you're seeing factors that your acquired skill set allows you to recognize the need for brakes. At this speed, the kid needed to start applying the brakes way back there. And all of this is happening in the parking lot. Ya ain't hit the streets yet...at which time, Everclear becomes an acceptable after event aperifif....straight...no ice...from the bottle... After the skill sets are ingrained, then you begin to move onto developing the skill of driving. In essence, the skill of driving is a constant and ongoing calculation of -- and pay close attention to the implications of this statement -- "The blending of the three elements, and in the correct proportions, to achieve the required results." This has left the area of skillsets and brings us into the ability to mentally process. Although there is the mental process involved, until now skill sets have really been primarily mechanical. If I really wanted to, I could take every skill set and put it onto a table/chart. At this speed you need to apply this much pressure to stop within this distance...etc.,etc.. Skill is almost an entirely mental process of blending those skillsets appropriately for the situation at hand. What many people don't realize, and this is why I used driving instead of FMA as the example, is that skill is a constant psychological means by which we constantly are calculating, processing and assessing data. Then we plot our reactions accordingly, using our skill sets. And, this cannot be stressed enough, we are doing it every few seconds... even if the decision is "keep on doing what you are doing." We do this incredibly complex and ongoing calculation every time we drive...which is important in realizing that we are able to think this way. (the challenge is: How do we teach people to apply it first to their art...and then onto combat?) What I am in essence talking about is before anybody starts drooling and touching themselves over adrenal stress conditioning, you need to have the skill sets in place and start working on developing the skill THEN you focus on getting the person to function in an adrenalized state. You introduce the stressors under which the person will be operating under in those SPECIFIC circumstances. Contrary to popular opinion, skills do not automatically transfer to different conditions, they must be specifically adapted and worked on (i.e. driving in LA traffic vs. driving on ice) Four final points come into play. First, and this is a bigger bitch than most people think. What you are teaching someone HAS to be effective in order for the amygdala to grab onto in an adrenalized state. In otherwords, the skill sets HAVE to work. If they don't, you really run the chance of the person freezing in a crisis -- or worse yet underperforming because you don't trust the move to work. Which is just as bad. Second, the transition from skill set to skill has to have been already implemented before you put someone under adrenal stress condition. Third, is stress inoculation. That means that you don't throw the person into the deep end of the pool, you work your way up to it. Fourth, is that the instructor really needs to know all the factors involved in the situation. If not by personal experience, then a buttload of research into various fields...otherwise important factors are going to be left out. Contrary to popular belief, you can function and even *gasp* think in an adrenalized state...but that too must be practiced and ingrained. The reason most people's MA fall apart in a -- and gawds how I hate this term -- "real fight" is that they have only focused on acquiring skill sets and told themselves that they are the same as having skill, much less the ability to apply those skills in a radically different environment than in which they trained. And unfortunately, this overconfidence was most often encouraged by the instructor who didn't know what he didn't know. M --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, escrima_arnis@topica.com From: Alex.France@kp.org Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 16:54:42 -0800 Subject: [Eskrima] IPMAF Kombatan Activities in the Bay Area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (This communication is going out to two Internet FMA digests; and via blind copy to the IPMAF general membership and other personal contacts.) I've always been a feast-or-famine type of guy when it comes to martial arts. Four months ago, I decided to come out of retirement to teach just a couple of classes. Didn't work out that way. Grandmaster Ernesto Presas has asked me to take over again as IPMAF Secretary General and set up a new U.S HQ. Since it's my grandmaster who is asking, I figure I better give it some effort, so effective immediately, here is my schedule. Join forces with me if you like at: Pamana ng Mandirgima (Warriors' Legacy) Club One Fitness Center at Pleasanton U.S. HQ for the International Philippine Martial Arts Federation 4460 Hacienda Drive, Pleasanton, CA Classes · Doble Baston (Double Sticks) Tuesdays 1-2 PM · Espada y Daga (Sword & Dagger or Long Stick & Knife) Thursdays 11-12 Noon · Solo Baston (Single Stick) Fridays 5-6 PM · Entire 10-Level Curriculum leading to Black Belt in Kombatan, the combative art of Grandmaster Ernesto Amador Presas. In this course, we'll cover the major systems of Kombatan: Doble Baston, Espada y Daga, Solo Baston, Daga, Daga sa Daga, and Mano-Mano. I'm also scheduled (March 27 through May 3) to conduct a 12 session KOMBATAN course for Dublin Parks & Rec. If you're interested, just go to www.dublinrecguide.com ; click on Activities, click on Adult Martial Arts Classes (although it's supposed to be for 12 yrs and up), click on KOMBATAN, to register. Class times are Mon & Wed 5:45-6:45 PM at Dublin Senior Center, 7600 Amador Valley Blvd. Dublin CA 94568 Workshops On the first Saturday of every month, we will have workshops on the lesser-known systems in Kombatan: Dos & Tres Puntas, Dulo-Dulo, Bankaw, Balisong, and Dumog. IPMAF Lakans in the Bay Area should plan on attending these as part of their advanced training. The general public is also welcome. · April: Progression from Dos Puntas to Dulo-Dulo. Instructor: Master Alex Ercia · May: Maintaining Your Art in Tournament Competition. This will be a fund-raiser for our local Balintawak & Kombatan teams who made it through the WEKAF Regionals, the Nationals, and are now headed for the Worlds. Coaches: Masters Lito Concepcion (Kombatan) and Gabe Rafael (Balintawak). Note: When it comes to WEKAF-"style(?)" tournaments, my mindset is pretty much like GP Abon Baet's, but there are a lot of people who enjoy participating in WEKAF events, and I am glad to support my friends who want to participate in it. "To each his own." (smile) WEKAF deserves praise and not scorn (constructive criticism, yes) for what they've accomplished. No great enterprise ever starts out perfectly; but if that organization broadens their scope to also include point or first blood type of matches in addition to domination, they'll achieve even greater success and acceptance. I may not agree with WEKAF in its present state, but I for one, salute them! · Bankaw ? Filipino Staff (June) Instructor: Master Alex Ercia Seminars · Kombatan ? I will be hosting a series of seminars for Grandmaster Ernesto Presas whenever he arrives here this summer. · Dumog ? Filipino Grappling ? I saw a tape of Jan-Jan (Ernesto Presas Jr) grappling on the floor and just flowing from one lock to another. He was awesome! Same with GP Abon Baet performing his Harimau Buno. I'd say the Filipino grappling arts of Dumog and Buno are second to none! He would be most welcome to use this place to conduct seminars in any of his martial and healing arts anytime he's in the Bay Area. · In keeping with the Filipino tradition of bayanihan, and the universal tradition of hospitality, our doors will be open to other martial and cultural organizations needing a place to spread their own art via 1 or 2 day seminars. Please contact me and let's make it happen! All participants in my "Spotlight on the Masters" seminar series (Master Jimmy Tacosa, Dr. Andre Knustgraichen, Grandmaster Ramiro Estalilla Jr, and Grandmaster Ciricao "Cacoy" Canete) held at the Philippine Martial Arts Academy in Vallejo, a decade ago are most welcome to come back and do it again! I've been quite fortunate to have been invited to set up my school (Pamana ng Mandirigma), and IPMAF US HQ within the Club One Fitness Center at Pleasanton. It's a martial arts haven, fully equipped with mats, bags, full-length mirrors, weights, and tread mills. I'd love to have Gints and his Fight Club do something here but I'm afraid they'd turn this place into shambles. Those gentlemen (and ladies) need to do their stuff in concrete bunkers... or padded cells (smile). Alex(ander Bautista Bayot France) Pamana ng Mandirigma "Preserve the Legacy, Add to the Legacy, Pass the Legacy On" --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:49:17 -0500 From: Djinji Brown To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] adrenal states Cc: djinjibrown1@mac.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 12:20PM, Q wrote: > > >______________________ > This has been an interesting discussion to read about. very interesting to hear all the different view points on such an emotional subject matter. It sounds emotional to me, but I could be reading more into it than is necessary. Question, can one be in an adrenalized situation/conflict of any sort, yet respond with quick wit through a calm mind? Thats the whole point of training from my understanding. Quick wit can mean a quick hit, or saying the right thing at the time without getting too riled up. Schools can train many students many different things, and its usually under the guidance if some sort of professional in that particular field., and under some sort of controlled circumstances. Most times students look to that person to have all the answers in that particular field and often in life general. Life at its best is neither controlled nor professional, yet we have to be. Life requires us to think fast at times, but also be aware at all times. I know people who have endured hardships in life that a martial art school couldn't train you for, and there are people i know know who could never endure the training that a martial art school delivers. My point is that we as martial artist no matter how long or short we have trained can not fully explain life and how people react to it in different situations. There are a great number of martial artist in this country who train out of privilege and not out of necessity. As it stands most of the arts we train today come from regions of the world and during times where the training had a direct link to life or death situations on a daily basis. We are privileged to train in 'controlled professional environments" as well most of our training comes attached with a monthly fee, so again we are privileged to be able to participate in the martial art world Maybe we could pose some of these questions to people outside this community, who at times live outside the of law. Does that seem wrong? What's the difference in reality to a soldier stationed in a foreign country and while in the barracks, "the enemy" attacks by semi automatic gunfire and car bombs and a gangbager who is under attack in a drive-by shooting while attending a neighborhood backyard BBQ? Do the two react or respond differently because one is lawfully employed to use a gun and the other is not? Maybe we can ask an inmate in a maximum security prison, while on the yard working out, how he responds to being shanked in the kidneys with a filed down toothbrush fresh after coming off a 300 lb. bench press routine. I don't think that there is any one answer or for that matter any group of answers that can fully explain this thing called life in general or this subject in particular. The Martial arts world exist through life and are products of life, the arts are not exclusive of life and the living. No matter how many angles you train, we must always understand the presence of the "Blind Spot" per se. Martial Art training is a reference point we learn in schools or (under a teacher in a back yard) upon which one can grow from and hopefully apply the lessons from that reference point when needed to in the outside world. So when you get 'hit' from a blind spot you can respond the in the best manner that serves your purpose. Maybe we can all try a "freestyle sumbrada" blindfolded where one person holds a broomstick and the other holds a leather belt with a buckle on the end. Everyone has a different purpose, and just because we here all have a love for the arts doesn't mean that we all need the same thing from the arts and the various training methods. As it stands I have few answers but many questions. One day my daughter who was three at the time asked me "Daddy do you know everything?" I replied " No baby , nobody knows everything, but everybody knows something!" Reading this debate makes me happy I found the wisdom to share that with her. D. Brown ( I didn't put my occupation nor my training background because I don't think it rally matters in this discussion ) --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:44:00 -0500 From: neercsemantwelve@aol.com Subject: Re: [Eskrima] adrenal states To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net wow. very emotional. i'm just a chubby pinoy dude who posted his view- my experience. you always read how these little dramas start, but i never thought i'd be a part of it. i have participated in a few gatherings. prior to my 1st gathering i had done NO fight prepartion. no hard sparring of any sort. i have a heavy bag at my house and i hit my bag and did some running. i went to guro marc's class & guro vic's class, but i did no sparring. i was basically fighting from my training in ''dead patterns'' and the only type of stick sparring i had ever done was WEKAF. big jacket, big helmet, no checking hand, no clinching, no striking- 2-3 minutes of who can hit who the the most in that time. no respect for clinch, no respect for alive/checking hand(usually the guy uses said hand to block), and no respect to HEAD shots. i enjoyed most of class until we would spar this way. what happened when the guy i fought for the 1st time got into that medio/corto range? i stood in front of him & started swiping at his mid section with witiks until he clinched me. how many times have we seen this type of thing happen in a WEKAF match or sparring? maybe my point is not clear, or maybe no matter what my view is nonsense to some. do you you have to fight in a gathering, at the U.F.C., or in the street to have proper ''adrenal'' training? i don't believe so at all. you don't even have to take the WEKAF gear off. i know, in my view, when you're emotionally into the way your training/sparring you will bring those skills you became attached to in that state to a fight. Francisco -----Original Message----- From: Djinji Brown To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: djinjibrown1@mac.com Sent: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:49:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] adrenal states On Sunday, March 12, 2006, at 12:20PM, Q wrote: > > >______________________ > This has been an interesting discussion to read about. very interesting to hear all the different view points on such an emotional subject matter. It sounds emotional to me, but I could be reading more into it than is necessary. Question, can one be in an adrenalized situation/conflict of any sort, yet respond with quick wit through a calm mind? Thats the whole point of training from my understanding. Quick wit can mean a quick hit, or saying the right thing at the time without getting too riled up. Schools can train many students many different things, and its usually under the guidance if some sort of professional in that particular field., and under some sort of controlled circumstances. Most times students look to that person to have all the answers in that particular field and often in life general. Life at its best is neither controlled nor professional, yet we have to be. Life requires us to think fast at times, but also be aware at all times. I know people who have endured hardships in life that a martial art school couldn't train you for, and there are people i know know who could never endure the training that a martial art school delivers. My point is that we as martial artist no matter how long or short we have trained can not fully explain life and how people react to it in different situations. There are a great number of martial artist in this country who train out of privilege and not out of necessity. As it stands most of the arts we train today come from regions of the world and during times where the training had a direct link to life or death situations on a daily basis. We are privileged to train in 'controlled professional environments" as well most of our training comes attached with a monthly fee, so again we are privileged to be able to participate in the martial art world Maybe we could pose some of these questions to people outside this community, who at times live outside the of law. Does that seem wrong? What's the difference in reality to a soldier stationed in a foreign country and while in the barracks, "the enemy" attacks by semi automatic gunfire and car bombs and a gangbager who is under attack in a drive-by shooting while attending a neighborhood backyard BBQ? Do the two react or respond differently because one is lawfully employed to use a gun and the other is not? Maybe we can ask an inmate in a maximum security prison, while on the yard working out, how he responds to being shanked in the kidneys with a filed down toothbrush fresh after coming off a 300 lb. bench press routine. I don't think that there is any one answer or for that matter any group of answers that can fully explain this thing called life in general or this subject in particular. The Martial arts world exist through life and are products of life, the arts are not exclusive of life and the living. No matter how many angles you train, we must always understand the presence of the "Blind Spot" per se. Martial Art training is a reference point we learn in schools or (under a teacher in a back yard) upon which one can grow from and hopefully apply the lessons from that reference point when needed to in the outside world. So when you get 'hit' from a blind spot you can respond the in the best manner that serves your purpose. Maybe we can all try a "freestyle sumbrada" blindfolded where one person holds a broomstick and the other holds a leather belt with a buckle on the end. Everyone has a different purpose, and just because we here all have a love for the arts doesn't mean that we all need the same thing from the arts and the various training methods. As it stands I have few answers but many questions. One day my daughter who was three at the time asked me "Daddy do you know everything?" I replied " No baby , nobody knows everything, but everybody knows something!" Reading this debate makes me happy I found the wisdom to share that with her. D. Brown ( I didn't put my occupation nor my training background because I don't think it rally matters in this discussion ) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest