Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 10:18:24 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #150 - 3 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Is this saying? Part 5 (Marc Denny) 2. Re: Is this saying? Part 5 (jay de leon) 3. RE: Is this saying? Part 5 (Ken Borowiec) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 08:01:38 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Is this saying? Part 5 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Jay: Thank you for your reply. I intersperse my comments below: > , , , If you mean the author is bigoted against Filipino-Chinese, or his > personal views are, I assure you he is not and they are not. >The author, > Manuel Tiangha, is of Chinese descent. If you mean the views he presents > in the email, whether they are originally his >or somebody else, are > bigoted, that is a different question. Seems like a distinction without a difference to me. If someone presents bigoted views without identifying them as such, it seems reasonable to me to think that he may share those views. To say BEGIN > (Caveat: I am going to re-tell a theory or theories which has or have > been posited very silently - in fact, mentioned only in whispers -in many > academic circles, particularly in the US- because they are thoroughly > controversial and shocking. I am summarizing the theory not because I > necessarily agree with it/them). END strikes me as , , , coy-- and similar to the way I have seen anti-semites try to spread their attitude. What is the point of posting this piece of bigotry? I don't see a reason given here. > , , , The other side of the coin is that many of these Filipino-Chinese > (sometimes called tsinoys, short for chinese and pinoy) have >become > extremely wealthy and powerful. As Tiangha points out, many of them were > merchants in the first place. There is a >current breed of tsinoys now > called taipans, extremely wealthy (up there with Bill Gates) with a lot of > economic clout. I am sure >many of them came to their wealth through > hard, honest work. But there are a handful of tsinoys who became > millionaires, and >then exploited and became beneficiaries of the corrupt > Filipino political and business system. Just like other wealthy, corrupt Filipinos? What is the point of focusing on their Chinese heritage? > Let me remind you this is basically an economic discussion. Tiangha and > many luxids and myself basically agree on what the problem is in the > Philippines. The crooked tsinoys exacerbate this problem. The > disagreement with us is what the solution is. > Are filipinos bigoted against tsinoys, on the basis of their ethnicity, > religion, culture, etc.? My personal take is, generally no. >They might > get envious of their material success. CROOKEDNESS exacerbates the problem, not "the crooked tsinoys". As for the emotion of "envy" it has taken many to ugly places throughout history. Maybe that is why one of the Ten Commandments speaks of not coveting our neighbors goods? Lets look at the original post, which in part said: BEGIN The overseas Asians : Their role as culprits time and time again in > keeping the Philippines and the Filipinos where they are: (!!!!!!!!!!!) Change the names and this could be a screed against the Jews in Europe. This is bigotry, plain and simple. > It has been said that allowing these peripatetic nomads to control (over > the last 500 years ) large portions of the local "economy" will always > be a problem for generating "national" unity. Why will this "tolerance" be > dangerous? Again, their (the overseas Asians) loyalty is only to their > specific family and their clan (who speaks their language and where they > share the same food) and so they could usurp and corrupt the local people > without care or pangs of conscience. These overseas Asians were expelled > from a certain country by the Mandarin (educated) class who looked down on > merchants as a lower/useless class (because it is said that they > (merchants) do not or did not subscribe to any sense of nationhood or > sense of ethics or sense of sacrifice or to a higher purpose but only > focused on immediate material gain/ and immediate material satisfaction). More of the same. > A merchant always looks at things in terms of material gain, material > loss or breaking even and looks at relationships in terms of a transaction > (for the gain, loss or breaking-even). ANYONE in business thinks in terms of gain or loss!!!-- yet here we see the same claim as made against the Jews as if they are different for doing so-- and that they think of money before and above friendship. > Bottom Line: If the economy (and the people buried under it) is seen as > a hunting ground by the overseas Asians who partner with the local "elite" > to exploit the general population (thus a large population is in fact > always an asset from a market standpoint) - then the existence of the > autocracy or autocratic elite (in political elections, in business, in > military affairs, in government) will always be sustained and always be > perpetuated without necessarily looking at the "national good". The sense > of a "national good" is a harmful idea to the overseas Asians. Just like the "international conspiracy" claim leveled against the Jews. END of quote from original post. Returning now to your most recent post: > Many filipinos have similar personal stories about tsinoys. I will tell > you mine briefly to give you an idea. One of my best >friends and > business associates in college was a tsinoy named George G. He was still > in college, but he was one of his father's >salesmen. By the time I met > him, his family was worth millions (dollars, not pesos), with several > businesses and manufacturing >plants in Taiwan. But he told me how they > became millionaires. His grandfather came on a boat to the Philippines > with nothing >but the shirt on his back. He started his business by > picking up bent nails (pako) in construction sites in Manila. Then he > would >go home and pound the nails to get them straight again. Then he > resold the straightened nails. And that is how he built his > multi->million dollar empire. I met this grandfather. He still spoke > tagalog with a sing-song chinese accent. Would I be bigoted against a > >man like that? Definitely not. He had my respect and admiration. Would > the average filipino be bigoted against an honest >businessman like that? > I do not think so. I have seen before stories like this used by those angry against blacks and/or Jews to seek to misdirect their listeners' attention away from the fact of their anger. > The problem is, how come the filipino was not as industrious, creative, > forward-looking, etc., etc.. (Remember Gat Puno Abon mentioning Juan > Tamad, or John Lazy?) As I began by saying, I am quite lacking in knowledge about much in the Philippines-- but my sense of how the world works leads me to suspect that social and political-economic structures in place since the time of the Spanish (e.g. similar to Latin America, about which I do have some education) have a lot to do with it. ((The Spanish conquistador mentality also was hostile to merchants--note too that they threw the Jews out of Spain-- and to my eye we see a progeny of this thinking in the piece you shared here.)) People are people, and given opportunity they will tend to take advantage of it-- this certainly has been my experience of the Filipinos here in California (the third largest ethnic group btw after whites and latinos). The answer to the Philippines problems I suspect lays more in addressing this political-cultural heritage dating back to the Spanish period than in blaming "The overseas Asians (as) culprits time and time again in keeping the Philippines and the Filipinos where they are"!!! People who've been on this list a while know that I am well to the right of Attila the Hun on most issues. I have little patience for the professional victims and racebaiters who litter the American landscape, so my comments in this matter are those of a man who rarely makes such comments. In closing, a small story. Around 1996 or 1997 it was at the time in Indonesia of what could fairly be called "pograms" (just like the pograms in Europe against the Jews) against Indonesians of Chinese ancestry by Muslims mobs saying things indistinguishable from the post to which I have reacted. There were killings and gang rapes of Chinese-Indo women, often right there next to the bodies of their men. A Chinese-Indo came to me to teach him real knife. He was the stereotype of the Chinese bookworm who you could blindfold with dental floss. He was studying to be an accountant-- yet he had good reason to fear as he walked down the street for being an oppressor and exploiter of "true Indonesians". He was no athlete. He was no martial artist. He was a man in fear of the hatred propelled by envy and, as his fiance watched, I taught him as best as I could for 5 days. He later wrote me after a successful use of the skills to ward off an attempt by a Muslim gang to thank me. I'm proud of that. Jay, I'm sorry to be so direct and confrontational on this, but I simply saw no way to dance around it. The post was bigoted. The Adventure continues, Marc. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 09:04:03 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Is this saying? Part 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc: No need to apologize. You are entitled to your opinion and point of view as much as the next person, and anybody that posts anything is fair game. What is paramount to the discussion is, there are major political and economic factors responsible for the current Philippine situation. It is a fact that the tsinoys are a major part of the economic fabric, and the crooked tsinoys of course contribute to the problem or thrive on the problem. I am just pointing out that my personal assessment is that, in the main, there is no feeling of bigotry or desire for pogrom for most filipinos against tsinoys. And I have no hidden anger or agenda by posting my tsinoy story. It is slightly different from the "Oh, I have friends who are black and Jews also." story. The tsinoy traits of industriousness, discipline and business savvy are well known and admired by filipinos. I was just bring that to the fore, not masking or redirecting anything. Jay de Leon Marc Denny wrote: Hi Jay: Thank you for your reply. I intersperse my comments below: > , , , If you mean the author is bigoted against Filipino-Chinese, or his > personal views are, I assure you he is not and they are not. >The author, > Manuel Tiangha, is of Chinese descent. If you mean the views he presents > in the email, whether they are originally his >or somebody else, are > bigoted, that is a different question. Seems like a distinction without a difference to me. If someone presents bigoted views without identifying them as such, it seems reasonable to me to think that he may share those views. To say BEGIN > (Caveat: I am going to re-tell a theory or theories which has or have > been posited very silently - in fact, mentioned only in whispers -in many > academic circles, particularly in the US- because they are thoroughly > controversial and shocking. I am summarizing the theory not because I > necessarily agree with it/them). END strikes me as , , , coy-- and similar to the way I have seen anti-semites try to spread their attitude. What is the point of posting this piece of bigotry? I don't see a reason given here. > , , , The other side of the coin is that many of these Filipino-Chinese > (sometimes called tsinoys, short for chinese and pinoy) have >become > extremely wealthy and powerful. As Tiangha points out, many of them were > merchants in the first place. There is a >current breed of tsinoys now > called taipans, extremely wealthy (up there with Bill Gates) with a lot of > economic clout. I am sure >many of them came to their wealth through > hard, honest work. But there are a handful of tsinoys who became > millionaires, and >then exploited and became beneficiaries of the corrupt > Filipino political and business system. Just like other wealthy, corrupt Filipinos? What is the point of focusing on their Chinese heritage? > Let me remind you this is basically an economic discussion. Tiangha and > many luxids and myself basically agree on what the problem is in the > Philippines. The crooked tsinoys exacerbate this problem. The > disagreement with us is what the solution is. > Are filipinos bigoted against tsinoys, on the basis of their ethnicity, > religion, culture, etc.? My personal take is, generally no. >They might > get envious of their material success. CROOKEDNESS exacerbates the problem, not "the crooked tsinoys". As for the emotion of "envy" it has taken many to ugly places throughout history. Maybe that is why one of the Ten Commandments speaks of not coveting our neighbors goods? Lets look at the original post, which in part said: BEGIN The overseas Asians : Their role as culprits time and time again in > keeping the Philippines and the Filipinos where they are: (!!!!!!!!!!!) Change the names and this could be a screed against the Jews in Europe. This is bigotry, plain and simple. > It has been said that allowing these peripatetic nomads to control (over > the last 500 years ) large portions of the local "economy" will always > be a problem for generating "national" unity. Why will this "tolerance" be > dangerous? Again, their (the overseas Asians) loyalty is only to their > specific family and their clan (who speaks their language and where they > share the same food) and so they could usurp and corrupt the local people > without care or pangs of conscience. These overseas Asians were expelled > from a certain country by the Mandarin (educated) class who looked down on > merchants as a lower/useless class (because it is said that they > (merchants) do not or did not subscribe to any sense of nationhood or > sense of ethics or sense of sacrifice or to a higher purpose but only > focused on immediate material gain/ and immediate material satisfaction). More of the same. > A merchant always looks at things in terms of material gain, material > loss or breaking even and looks at relationships in terms of a transaction > (for the gain, loss or breaking-even). ANYONE in business thinks in terms of gain or loss!!!-- yet here we see the same claim as made against the Jews as if they are different for doing so-- and that they think of money before and above friendship. > Bottom Line: If the economy (and the people buried under it) is seen as > a hunting ground by the overseas Asians who partner with the local "elite" > to exploit the general population (thus a large population is in fact > always an asset from a market standpoint) - then the existence of the > autocracy or autocratic elite (in political elections, in business, in > military affairs, in government) will always be sustained and always be > perpetuated without necessarily looking at the "national good". The sense > of a "national good" is a harmful idea to the overseas Asians. Just like the "international conspiracy" claim leveled against the Jews. END of quote from original post. Returning now to your most recent post: > Many filipinos have similar personal stories about tsinoys. I will tell > you mine briefly to give you an idea. One of my best >friends and > business associates in college was a tsinoy named George G. He was still > in college, but he was one of his father's >salesmen. By the time I met > him, his family was worth millions (dollars, not pesos), with several > businesses and manufacturing >plants in Taiwan. But he told me how they > became millionaires. His grandfather came on a boat to the Philippines > with nothing >but the shirt on his back. He started his business by > picking up bent nails (pako) in construction sites in Manila. Then he > would >go home and pound the nails to get them straight again. Then he > resold the straightened nails. And that is how he built his > multi->million dollar empire. I met this grandfather. He still spoke > tagalog with a sing-song chinese accent. Would I be bigoted against a > >man like that? Definitely not. He had my respect and admiration. Would > the average filipino be bigoted against an honest >businessman like that? > I do not think so. I have seen before stories like this used by those angry against blacks and/or Jews to seek to misdirect their listeners' attention away from the fact of their anger. > The problem is, how come the filipino was not as industrious, creative, > forward-looking, etc., etc.. (Remember Gat Puno Abon mentioning Juan > Tamad, or John Lazy?) As I began by saying, I am quite lacking in knowledge about much in the Philippines-- but my sense of how the world works leads me to suspect that social and political-economic structures in place since the time of the Spanish (e.g. similar to Latin America, about which I do have some education) have a lot to do with it. ((The Spanish conquistador mentality also was hostile to merchants--note too that they threw the Jews out of Spain-- and to my eye we see a progeny of this thinking in the piece you shared here.)) People are people, and given opportunity they will tend to take advantage of it-- this certainly has been my experience of the Filipinos here in California (the third largest ethnic group btw after whites and latinos). The answer to the Philippines problems I suspect lays more in addressing this political-cultural heritage dating back to the Spanish period than in blaming "The overseas Asians (as) culprits time and time again in keeping the Philippines and the Filipinos where they are"!!! People who've been on this list a while know that I am well to the right of Attila the Hun on most issues. I have little patience for the professional victims and racebaiters who litter the American landscape, so my comments in this matter are those of a man who rarely makes such comments. In closing, a small story. Around 1996 or 1997 it was at the time in Indonesia of what could fairly be called "pograms" (just like the pograms in Europe against the Jews) against Indonesians of Chinese ancestry by Muslims mobs saying things indistinguishable from the post to which I have reacted. There were killings and gang rapes of Chinese-Indo women, often right there next to the bodies of their men. A Chinese-Indo came to me to teach him real knife. He was the stereotype of the Chinese bookworm who you could blindfold with dental floss. He was studying to be an accountant-- yet he had good reason to fear as he walked down the street for being an oppressor and exploiter of "true Indonesians". He was no athlete. He was no martial artist. He was a man in fear of the hatred propelled by envy and, as his fiance watched, I taught him as best as I could for 5 days. He later wrote me after a successful use of the skills to ward off an attempt by a Muslim gang to thank me. I'm proud of that. Jay, I'm sorry to be so direct and confrontational on this, but I simply saw no way to dance around it. The post was bigoted. The Adventure continues, Marc. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Is this saying? Part 5 Date: Tue, 16 May 2006 12:18:48 -0400 From: "Ken Borowiec" To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >He was the stereotype of the Chinese bookworm who you could blindfold with dental floss. For someone screaming bigotry why in the world would you say a flat out racist comment like this? >Just like other wealthy, corrupt Filipinos? What is the point of focusing on their Chinese heritage? Because he is talking about tsinoys, "short for Chinese and pinoy" Personally I didn't see this article as bigotry when I read it, I saw a hatred of corrupt people ruining life in the Philippines for the hardworking people of the same culture and what he believed was their response to it. Why? Maybe he has experienced this dislike first hand. The author being Chinese and speaking badly of most tsinoys in the Philippines sounds embarrassed by these people who are corrupt and manipulating. They are ruining it for hard working tsinoys. But I do see how someone can read into it the way you do. Unfortunately sometimes facts when stated in a specific way can be misunderstood as a bigoted statement. Not to mention in my limited experience in the Asian cultures, different counties (cultures) are bigoted to each other and have been for a long time. If you don't believe me walk up to a Korean you don't know and call him Chinese, trust me he will be insulted. It is the same with Latin cultures as well as many others. And before anything is said about any of my statements I have had conversations with my inlaws(they are Thai) on some of these subjects and that is where my information comes from. Ken --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest