Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 02:59:16 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #202 - 2 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: rapier realities (1@msfencing.org) 2. Rapier and Dagger (Stephen Lamade) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] rapier realities Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 08:02:42 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: Marc MacYoung [mailto:marcmacyoung@earthlink.net] > >>The problem is, once an opponent is able to get past the point of the > >>rapier > >>they can overcome its deadliness. Hence the fact that they soon adopted > >>the > >>carrying of a much shorter blade to compliment the rapier. This is true. A rapier of the later period had no cutting edge, so once you got in close its point was ineffective. The dagger solved this problem. If neither of the duelists had daggers they would apply one or more of the grappling techniques taught by the masters of defense of their day. The dagger was also used for parrying. The rapier was long and unwieldy compared to its grandson the smallsword. Because of the rapier's length you could not make the same type of parries with them that you would with the smallsword or the epee de combat. You had to use your left hand, dagger, buckler, or cloak to parry. Or make a simple stesso tempo parry which was actually an angulated attack in which your attack also blocked the opponent's incoming blade. Rapier duels more often than were simple brawls in which grappling was an important part of ones rapier training. I teach rapier in my salle and as part of the training I have my students practice taking on a rapier fencer unarmed. Controlling distance is a very important part of all types of Western fencing. However, due to the weight/length characteristics of the rapier it is not that difficult to swat the incoming unwieldy blade to the side using your gloved hand, close the distance safely and take the opponent down. We do it all the time in my salle against very skilled rapier fencers who are adept at managing and controlling distance. To do so against a smallsword or an epee. Is much more difficult and dangerous. > Remember that the rapier was not a battlefield weapon, but a personal one > for civilian use. It couldn't penetrate plate armour. Mark is right. It was not a military weapon. Instead it was carried by civilians and used for self-defense. The Espada de Ropera (sword of the road) was worn by travelers and anyone else who needed self-protection. It later evolved into a much more deadly weapon, the smallsword, which was much shorter, short enough to be used for both attack and parry, thus making the parrying dagger superfluous. Seizures, take-aways and grappling were still taught during this era. The smallsword was worn as fashion statement and carried by anyone of aristocratic stock. The common men used knives, sticks, farm implements, short swords, etc. In the 1800s Smallsword training evolved into Classical Foil with rules and conventions added to govern right of way in the attack. With the safety of the mask and blunt tips the foil (originally a practice weapon for the smallsword) became a theorizing tool in which second and third intention could be explored. However, by the Classic Era the Dueling Sword had changed again, now in the slightly longer length known as the Epee d'Combat. Foil conventions of the day did not properly prepare fencers for the realities of the jue de terrain. So many Fencing Masters of the 1800s started teaching Epee to better prepare their students for the duel. During the Classical era the wearing of a sword was no longer a fashion statement. Instead, matched pairs for Dueling Swords were kept in cases which were brought out only at the site of a duel. Duels by this time were more elaborate affairs in which gentlemen were more interested in saving face than in killing each other. Brawling was considered beneath them. Fist fighting and knife fighting was for commoners. This was the era when men dueled in shirt sleeves and often stripped to the waist so as to prove they had no unfair advantage. During the rapier and smallsword era it was not considered ungentlemanly to take any advantage one could come up with. I have much more I'd like to say on this topic but must leave for a few hours. Blessings, Rez "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 15:58:29 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Rapier and Dagger Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mark MacYoung's post brings to mind two excellent DVD sets by Maestro Ramon= Martinez of New York City: (1) La Scherma Italiana: The Basics of ItalianR= apier Fencing and (2) La Verdadera Destreza: The True Art and Skill ofSpani= sh Swordsmanship. Both can serve as primers for the concepts that Markdesc= ribed in his post. In addition, a translation of Capo Ferro's ItalianRapie= r Combat is also available at Maestro Martinez' site:http://www.martinez-de= streza.com/shop.htm My friend James Seetoo is an accomplished fencer who ca= me tothe Filipino martial arts after studying Sabre at the Santelli salle i= n NewYork. James also taught historical rapier and dagger in New York befo= removing to the West Coast recently. I was always impressed by the way tha= tJames could use his footwork and angling to maintain range when we practic= edFilipino martial arts together. Best, Steve Lamade --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest