Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 03:01:11 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #204 - 2 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Bareknuckle -v- Gloves (Ollie Batts) 2. Re: Bareknuckle -v- Gloves (Steve Ames) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 11:24:20 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Bareknuckle -v- Gloves Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rocky is correct in his recently-made points about the cumulative concussive effects of the gloved hand. In bareknuckle fights, much obvious damage was done to the face with bare hands. That facial damage was usually relatively superficial, however, when compared to the hands. Hands bones and knuckle joints would often end up very badly bruised and broken. (Although I'm sure that having your nose busted and your teeth knocked out was still pretty grim too.) Bare hands are only capable of standing up to so much punishment, and old fighters used to try everything, including 'pickling' their hands, to make the skin tougher. A hand wrapped and covered in a glove, on the other hand (excuse the pun!), is far better protected. Gloved hands are able to dish out punishment as long as a fighter has the strength and conditioning to do so. (Although it's true to say that hands do still get broken occasionally in modern-day gloved contests too.) Because the old time bareknuckle fights went on so long, however, fatalities were not unknown. Gloves were first introduced in the hope of: a) preventing fatalities, and; b) lessening the blood, gore and facial disfigurement, in an attempt to make boxing (illegal at the time) more socially acceptable. We nowadays understand that the introduction of the gloves did not prevent the fatalities. It was also necessary to limit the length of fights and to ensure that good refereeing should, ideally, not allow fighters to sustain any more punishment than necessary. Carlton Fung's point about Jim Jefferies being more of a wrestler/boxer is incorrect. Although I accept that he probably simply picked the name out of the air to make his point. Jefferies was actually a gloved fighter who fought under the Marquess of Queensberry Rules, in the late 1800's and early 1900's. It is, however, true to say that earlier bareknuckle pugilists often used wrestling moves, such as the cross-buttock throw, and leg trips, to down an opponent. That was usually when they wanted to punish an opponent, by falling with them and landing on top of them. That was of course illegal. Not the throw itself, but falling on one's opponent deliberately. But they could always claim it to have been accidental anyway. Sometimes they would throw their opponent in order to end a round and take a rest. Rounds, in the early days, ended when one or both fighters went down, but not before. If they wanted a rest they would often upend their opponent so that the round was stopped. They would then get a thirty-second break before being called to toe-the-scratch (a line marked in the centre of the ring). They had eight seconds in which to 'come up to scratch', and anyone failing to do so was deemed to be beaten. It was not uncommon for fighters to be carried to, and even supported at, the scratch by their Seconds. Needless to say, once unsupported it often only needed one punch to knock a fighter down again. That was the end of another round. Which is why so many old fights lasted 50 rounds or more. Pugil --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Steve Ames" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bareknuckle -v- Gloves Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:04:12 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ollie Batts wrote: > A hand wrapped and covered in a glove, on the > other hand (excuse the pun!), is far better protected. Gloved hands > are able to dish out punishment as long as a fighter has the strength > and conditioning to do so. (Although it's true to say that hands do > still get broken occasionally in modern-day gloved contests too.) I think this is really the key point. The weight of the glove really doesn't bring much to the party. Adding 12-16 ounces when I'm already putting a significant chunk of my bodyweight behind a blow doesn't add much. Lets assume you only get 20 pounds behind your punch. A 16oz glove brings you to 21 pounds... a 5% increase. So.. basic force = mass * accelleration says adding mass increases force. But... The padding does cause some of the force to not get transmitted well. If your fist hits someones face and instantly goes from full speed to zero then you got mega acceleration there. However the padding is going to increase the amount of time it takes to go to zero. I expect its going to increase that time by significantly more than 5% and so will totally offset any gain you got from the mass. Also keep in mind that when your fist hits that force goes both ways... to your fist and your opponents face (and the glove gets some also). Your body structure sets you up to better absorb your part of it. Your opponent is probably not so lucky. That's where "going with the punch" comes in. Its the fact that your hand is protected that is key. Without gloves your more likely to hit soft tissue areas and less likely to hit with as much force to bony/pointy areas as often as you would with your hands safely protected. You can also hit them a lot more. Without the glove the number of punches you throw and their power is going to steadily decrease as your hands become injured (unless your into that sort of thing). A broken hand cannot deliver as much force (it can't maintain the structure necessary to maximize acceleration). -steve --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest