Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:32:17 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #205 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Boxing East vs West (Bandile Dlabantu) 2. Rapier and the shorter sword. (Peter Gow) 3. Re: Bareknuckle -v- Gloves (iPat) 4. (no subject) (Gilmour, Julian) 5. Re: Bareknuckle -v- Gloves (Steve Ames) 6. Steel Tiger Karambit Review (buz_ed_alias@mac.com) 7. RE: [Eskrima]Compare Short sword and Machete. (Ken Borowiec) 8. Bareknuckles v. Gloves (Michael Koblic) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 08:55:34 +0000 (GMT) From: Bandile Dlabantu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Boxing East vs West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What if though the constant historic interactions with the West (America, Spain etc.), it is Filipino martial arts that had been influenced or borrowed from Boxing? I personally buy the one way East to West paradigm of information exchange reality points to a two way process. I mean Judo owes a lot to western wrestling styles (Folk, Russian and catch as catch can) and Southern Chinese Kung Fu and some Karate styles e.g Kyokushin Kai also has a lot of English Boxing influences. Or Maybe it may just be a logical adaptation to being hit that evolved independently in both hemispheres of the world. I mean humans have not changed much for thousands of years. Just a thought Bandile --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Peter Gow" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 09:54:34 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Rapier and the shorter sword. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The rapier in fact was not of a standard length in fact there were different types of rapiers which had different lengths. The wearing of the shorter foil was due to the fact that a rapier being so long became unweildy to wear at court, as it dragged on the ground - 3ft or so of metal hanging from the hip - thus to overcome this unkempt appearance a shorter sword - the foil evolved. Galang, Peter Gow Australia --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:06:59 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bareknuckle -v- Gloves Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What is the reasoning why we use 16oz gloves to train with? That the padding disperses the force? Is that negated by the weight of the glove? On 6/27/06, Steve Ames wrote: > > > I think this is really the key point. The weight of the glove really > doesn't > bring much to the party. Adding 12-16 ounces when I'm already putting a > significant chunk of my bodyweight behind a blow doesn't add much. Lets > assume you only get 20 pounds behind your punch. A 16oz glove brings you > to > 21 pounds... a 5% increase. So.. basic force = mass * accelleration says > adding mass increases force. But... The padding does cause some of the > force > to not get transmitted well. > > -- > Pat Davies > www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:05:40 +0100 From: "Gilmour, Julian" To: Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all Ollie wrote: "Hand bones and knuckle joints would often end up very badly bruised and broken." I haven't read 'The Guv'nor' - Lennie McLean's biography, but I was told that there is a description of a fight he has in New York. Being a famed unlicensed boxer in the UK, his reputation spread and a fight was set up by the mafia for him to go against their champion in NYC. According to the book he beat the guy quite brutally, and then left the venue immediately, before being paid, because he was afraid the mafia might kill him. On the plane, once the adrenalin (and whatever else) had left his system, he realised his hands were so badly broken, he couldn't do his seatbelt up or eat his food. I agree completely with the brain damage versus facial damage thread, but FWIW I would add that there is also more of a risk of losing an eye with bareknuckle, and that would be a serious loss. Empty your cup J ############################################################################# ######## This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This e-mail message has been scanned for Viruses and Content and cleared by NetIQ MailMarshal The recipient of this email should ensure that it is virus free. We do not accept any liability for any virus that may be conveyed with this email. ############################################################################# ######## --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:24:39 -0400 From: Steve Ames To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bareknuckle -v- Gloves Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Wed, Jun 28, 2006 at 11:06:59AM +0100, iPat wrote: > What is the reasoning why we use 16oz gloves to train with? That the padding > disperses the force? Is that negated by the weight of the glove? Lots of reasons. 1. The extra weight gives you a harder/less optimal workout; 2. your backward... the fact that the padding reduces force transfer negates the extra weight (with regards to force). 3. Bigger gloves provide more protection when your hands are up in a shieldlike manner. 4. Gloves are less likely tu cut your opponent or give them the cauliflower ear. If you take two hits in isolation, completely ignoring any other factors and assuming they are the same, the gloved fist is going to transfer less force to the target. But the point of my post was sort of agreeing that gloved boxing is more dangerous. Not because of any extra weight of the gloves but because your hands are protected better. Because your hands are protected better you are willing to hit more often, hit harder (i.e. commit a lot more weight behind a hit) and hit targets that you might not with a bare hand. That all adds up to a lot more actual abuse even if the glove is safer in a "All else being the same" scenario. Its just not the same. You fight differently with gloves on. -Steve > On 6/27/06, Steve Ames wrote: > > > > > > I think this is really the key point. The weight of the glove really > > doesn't > > bring much to the party. Adding 12-16 ounces when I'm already putting a > > significant chunk of my bodyweight behind a blow doesn't add much. Lets > > assume you only get 20 pounds behind your punch. A 16oz glove brings you > > to > > 21 pounds... a 5% increase. So.. basic force = mass * accelleration says > > adding mass increases force. But... The padding does cause some of the > > force > > to not get transmitted well. > > > > -- > > Pat Davies > > www.amag.org.uk > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: buz_ed_alias@mac.com Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 14:56:51 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Steel Tiger Karambit Review Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Picked up a Cold Steel (CS) Steel Tiger (ST) Karambit last week I figured I'd write up for the list. Before I review the blade, though, I wanted to mention that I've long thought CS has several tiers of blades that basically break down to top tier combat knives, mid tier utility blades, and bottom tier market fodder. Though I can't fault CS for catering to the market as I suspect those sales allow them to stay in the top tier business, I do wish the ST was more about business and less about market fodder flash. The first thing I noted when drawing the ST is that it is considerably bigger than other karambits I've reviewed here, with a claimed 5 inch blade and a 4.75 inch handle, though if you measure along the outside curve of both they are more like 6 inches each, which makes for a beefy blade. Though I'm no karambit stylist, I view them as primarily a back up blade that pops out unexpectedly. The ST is of a size that would make that difficult, though I suppose there are those out there attracted to a big, shiny blade with an odd geometry. I next noted that the blade is single edged, which greatly reduces the ST's fighting utility IMO. A sharpened outside edge on a karambit turns your hand into something of an ulu, allowing hammer fist cuts to be delivered, while the inside edge allow for various sorts of hooking techniques. Remove that outside edge and you remove one of the reasons to haul a karambit around in the first place. As that may be, the blade if thus a fairly straightforward taper from the handle to the point and edge; my guess is that this simple taper greatly reduces production costs, hence the single edge. The edge that is sharpened is Cold Steel sharp, however, easily shaving hair and cutting anything it's applied to. The point is also quite acute; I'll be interested to see how it holds up. Perhaps I could have forgiven the ST's size and single edge, but that all flew out the window when I grasped the handle. How do you say "sucks poison toadstools" in Malay? I couldn't find a grip where the handle rested comfortably in my hand, for the most part due to three finger grooves/scales that wrap around the inside curve of the handle. In a standard grip these scales are the least annoying, though there's a "something don't feel right here" sensation as all the various surfaces meet the hand. In reverse grip with the point outward my fingers lay close to perpendicular to the scales, which again leaves the hand with a WTF? register. Reverse, point inward doesn't work in my hand; with a piece of the "guard" digging into the meat at the base of my little finger. I put the "guard" in quotes because it feels like a piece of soft rubber that wouldn't much slow down a decent blade in a parry. I've poked and prodded around this little projection on the inside curve just past the base of the blade and conclude there is a swell in the tang there that the piece of rubber in question projects .2 inch or so beyond. Bottom line is that this "guard" appears more esthetic than functional, while also gumming up a grip. Combined with the false confidence this piece of "guard" may provide, it's hard to mark it down as anything other than an affectation meant to wow the gun store commandos. In a similar vein, the ring that defines the karambit style at the base of the handle appears to be made of hard plastic. I've held various magnets to it but don't sense a tug. My guess is that a good smack would shatter the ring. The ST has a good sheath that holds it well and presents it smartly. I generally like the CS Secure-Ex sheaths; they don't rattle, lend themselves to a variety of carry methods, present easily, and secure well. I do wish the clip allowed for ambidextrous carry. Worn IWB on my strong side the blade presents in the standard grip, while I prefer reverse for a karambit. The blade can be found for mid-30+ dollars, and has a rubber trainer available for less than $8, which give it a leg up on most the 440 Ninja karambits floating around out there. Once I'm done putting the ST through its paces I'm tempted to get out the Dremel tool, knock off the "guard," do away with the finger scales, tape up the handle, and use it for training. If CS was seeking to keep production costs down while producing a gee-whiz looking knife likely to appeal testosterone addled wannabes, I'd say they succeeded. This is not, however, a blade I think the serious martial artist will find a lot of use for, at least not without modification. If you can deal with the ST's limitations, the price is right and a trainer available. If you're looking for a blade that can do what a karambit is 'sposed to do, then I'd say it's time to open up the wallet and pick up something upscale. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 17:34:19 -0400 From: "Ken Borowiec" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: [Eskrima]Compare Short sword and Machete. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have handled both short sword and machete. My question is which do you all prefer and why? Ken --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:30:48 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Bareknuckles v. Gloves Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "I think this is really the key point. The weight of the glove really doesn't bring much to the party. Adding 12-16 ounces when I'm already putting a significant chunk of my bodyweight behind a blow doesn't add much. Lets assume you only get 20 pounds behind your punch. A 16oz glove brings you to 21 pounds... a 5% increase. So.. basic force = mass * accelleration says adding mass increases force. But... The padding does cause some of the force to not get transmitted well. If your fist hits someones face and instantly goes from full speed to zero then you got mega acceleration there. However the padding is going to increase the amount of time it takes to go to zero. I expect its going to increase that time by significantly more than 5% and so will totally offset any gain you got from the mass. Also keep in mind that when your fist hits that force goes both ways... to your fist and your opponents face (and the glove gets some also). Your body structure sets you up to better absorb your part of it. Your opponent is probably not so lucky. That's where "going with the punch" comes in." I wonder to what extent the hand bandages *under* the glove contribute to increase in power transfer. As we all know there are significant power leaks to any punch where the skeletal structure is not aligned just right, notably the shoulder, the elbow and the wrist. If any of these collapse at impact the power of the punch is reduced not to mention the increased likelihood of injury to the puncher. Bandaging the hand and the wrist reduces the wrist collapsing. Also, I wonder to what extent the glove padding actually *increases* the power delivery due to increased friction on the human skin of the target area - a bare fist thrown slightly off target will glance off and some of the power will be dissipated as a result, particularly if there is a significant amount of sweating or other wetness of the fist or the target surface. Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. 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