Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:59:14 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #206 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Espada Y Daga Book and DVD (Danny Anderson) 2. boxing and rapiers (Q) 3. Bareknuckle -v- Gloves (Marc MacYoung) 4. Short sword or machete (Stephen Lamade) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Danny Anderson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:29:13 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Espada Y Daga Book and DVD Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Here's a heads up about the newest book on FMA: Espada Y Daga - The Sword & Dagger Fighting Art by Dan Anderson.  You can find it at this link: http://danandersonkarate.com/store/arnis_bk6.html Here are a couple of reviews for you. “It has been said by some arnis masters that “espada y daga” is the essence of arnis or Filipino Martial Arts. For those of us that practice the art, it is arguably the most difficult, and from a combative point of view, it is probably the most dangerous bladed weapon combination one can come up against. Who else can bring the necessary expertise to present the basics as well as the nuances of “espada y daga” mastery than Modern Arnis Senior Master Dan Anderson? I personally congratulate my fellow arnisador Dan Anderson for another important contribution to FMA literature as well as an invaluable training aid and reference. And I enthusiastically recommend this ground-breaking book on a very complex but exciting aspect of Filipino Martial Arts, the “espada y daga.” Roger Agbulos Chief Instructor – ASTIG LAMECO “It is a privilege to be asked to write a forward to Dan Anderson’s latest book. Although San Miguel Eskrima (the Filipino martial art that I practice) may initially appear to be different from Modern Arnis, we are, in fact, “country cousins” insofar as many aspects of our respective arts spring from the same source. Dan’s book is an excellent introduction to the art of MA-80 espada y daga. Not only will the information provided herein give you a solid foundation upon which to develop your basic skills, but the intelligent and well-designed drills will give you the conceptual tools with which to conduct your own research and hone your art to the next level. Dan is being modest when he states that his book is a “beginner’s book,” i.e. a book about espada y daga “basics.” What I would like to add to his comment is my opinion that the outcome of fights are determined by the quality of the fighter’s “basics.” Stephen Lamade Instructor San Miguel Eskrima Organization Yours, Dan Anderson --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 20:37:32 -0700 (GMT-07:00) From: Q To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] boxing and rapiers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net -----Original Message----- >Carlton Fung's point about Jim Jefferies being more of a wrestler/boxer is >incorrect. Although I accept that he probably simply picked the name out of >the air to make his point. Jefferies was actually a gloved fighter who >fought under the Marquess of Queensberry Rules, in the late 1800's and early >1900's. >Pugil Pugil, Yes I used his name to prove a point but many boxers of this era were wrestler/boxers until the wrestling faded away sicne there was no money in it. This is cut from the IBHOF: Jeffries moved with his family from Ohio to a Los Angeles-area farm at the age of seven. As a youth, he was a great athlete who distinguished himself in boxing, wrestling, and track. Jeffries fought in a crouch with his left arm extended and his face protected by his right forearm. He developed a terrific left hook, as well as a straight left he could throw out of the crouch, often at short range and with great effect. See he wrestled just like so many of his cohort and what do you think about that stance? Here's from another competitor of his day but this time not boxing but wrestling mostly : Jim Barber -In an interview with Nat Fleischer, Jeffries claimed the fight took place, but in the book, Two-Fisted Jeff, he said it was not a real boxing match, only a "rough and tumble wrestling" match on Santa Monica beach: "One Sunday we [Jeff and Barber] went to the beach in Santa Monica and were loafing around in our bathing suits. In some way we starting scuffling, grabbed hold of each other, and from play we went at it to see which was the better man. We fought and wrestled all over that beach, tore up half an acre of sand and gravel and when we were finally finished we were skinned from head to foot where the sand and gravel had rasped us like a file. We were both all in, but Barber, panting, said: 'By gosh, Jim, it's lucky they didn't get us to fight. You're a better man than I am.' Until then I had thought of him as the strongest man in California and to beat him at rough and tumble wrestling settled the matter. That night I made up my mind finally, to be a fighter. If I was strong enough to beat Jim Barber, I need fear no one." This is the way it was in the late 1800's in boxing/wrestling: 1896 Jan 10 V.A. Magnin Los Angeles, Ca EX 3 -According to Billy Gallagher, he and Jeffries toured Southern California, Arizona, and New Mexico; Jeffries took on all-comers. Also, The point about getting past the point of the rapier was just making a point....The intention was obiviously not to oversimplify a weapon or its use. We need Video for this discussion board. Regards, Carlton H. Fung, D.D.S. Torrance, Ca. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:52:39 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Bareknuckle -v- Gloves Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I think this is really the key point. The weight of the glove really > doesn't > bring much to the party. Adding 12-16 ounces when I'm already putting a > significant chunk of my bodyweight behind a blow doesn't add much. Lets > assume you only get 20 pounds behind your punch. A 16oz glove brings you > to > 21 pounds... a 5% increase. So.. basic force = mass * accelleration says > adding mass increases force. But... The padding does cause some of the > force > to not get transmitted well. Actually you need to factor in a couple of other things as well. Increased mass at the end does allow for harder hitting, we'll get back to that in a second, because there are other factors involved too. But of bigger import than overall weight is what is worn underneath the gloves, namely wraps. In essence by bracing the wrist you remove "shock absorbers" and flex that commonly occur and rob the puncher of power. By shoring up the bones, you significantly decrease the chance of breaking bones through delivering so much force. While bareknuckle boxers hit in structurally sound ways the lack of equipment made it mandatory that they hit correctly (i.e. with proper alignment). Even then, you had to be concerned about putting more force into a move than your delivery system could handle. Wraps, however, allow for -- not necessarily an increase in power --but a more effective delivery system. In other words, even if you hit with the same level of force, you have less bleed off of power because wraps hold your hands into proper alignment. So the exact same hit will "deliver" more force with equipment than without. While the degree of force is the same, more of it is going into the target instead of being lost through structural 'leaks.' Now add to this that with the improved structural stability that wraps give you, you can safely hit "harder" (i.e. with more force). Kind of like having a Ferrari instead of a Hyundai, you can go faster AND it handles better. With equipment. you deliver force more effectively AND you can safely hit harder. Therefore the padding of gloves DOES add in a shock absorber, but at the same time, the added support takes away others. And you can crank up the power without suffering damage to yourself. That's one subtraction vs. two pluses. This is one of the reasons why you can hit harder with gloves than without What a lot of people don't realize is that with the advent of gloves (that extra mass) the bodymechanics of boxing changed. That seemingly small addition of the gloves tired the arms a whole lot quicker. While there were many reasons to keep the hands extended out in a bare knuckled contest (including their use as anti-clinching/grappling method), the reason the boxing guard came in wasn't purely because of a change in the rules against clinching. Those damned gloves get heavy. The new added weight percipitated a change in bodymovement for striking techniques. With gloves, the use of the hips as a means of power became far more important. As it was explained to me by my boxing coach "Your hips are a cannon and your fist is the cannonball." Your hip movement literally shoots your weighted fists out. Now this in no way removes the importance of forward momentum (yours or his) and range as the main source of power. But it does bring up the idea of added acceleration. So now you have mass in motion AND acceleration. (And now you know why I go ballistic with people who teach that the "hips are the source of your power." They are accelerators of your power, not the source. They are literally the "coil" -- for those of you with automechanic experience that'll make sense. For non-greasemonkeys, a layman's explination is the coil takes a small amount of electricity from your car battery and cranks it up enough so it powerful enough to arc the gap in your spark plugs. There needs to be more power at the sparkplug than at the battery and the coil is how you get this increase. Otherwise your car battery would arc everytime you got near it with metal). With the hands in in a modern "boxing guard" you havle the weight of the gloves riding -- in essence -- on your elbows and shoulders instead of your arm muscles. You don't tire out as fast holding up that extra weight because your skeleton is carrying most of the weight. You also in effect create a coiled spring effect that allows you to shoot your hands out -- which adds to acceleration. And now we come to the added mass. A concept that is not well addressed by many people who go on about mass, velocity and acceleration is wieght distribution. A long standing joke of mine is "With me, impact weapons start at a mace." That added weight at the end has a MAJOR effect. This is why when we used to hit people with pool cues, we always used the weighted end. In fact, one of the signs to watch for in the poolhalls and bars was the guy who selected the stick he was going to shoot with and the one that he picked up and then set beside the table tip down. This put the heavier butt end up to make for better striking. That's the dude you wanted to drop before he reached that extra cue stick. I've seen lots of people get pool cues broken over their head and ALL of the ones who remained standing were hit with either the light end or the middle of the cue. I've never seen anyone stay on their feet and keep fighting after taking the heavy end upside their head. (I've seen them still stay up, but they weren't good for much). The Irish sheliegh (I can never spell that right) operates along the same principle. Even though it doesn't change the over-all weight that much, that little bit of added weight on the end has a BIG effect in how hard you're going to get pegged. Now add to this that you don't use a mace like a hammer, but more like a whip crack and you will begin to see the parallels to a boxing punch with gloves on. That added weight and a shortening the time of impact (your hips also pull the cannonball back) makes for a nasty, power delivery system with gloves. Hope this helps to explain a couple of things. M --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 03:44:08 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Short sword or machete Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ken asked: "I have handled both short sword and machete. My question is which do youall prefer and why?" See for example this clip, wherein strategies for the rapier are compared with strategies for the ginunting: http://www.northshoreac.com/san_miguel_eskrima/training_resources_files/ptksm e_dvd_example.mp4 As the clip (hopefully) shows, techniques designed for the ginunting fail for the rapier, and strategies for the rapier fail for the ginunting. This because each weapon is designed for a specific range - and also with different kinds of opponents in mind. Given that context, if I had to fight a duel and if I knew how to handle a short sword, then I'd choose the short sword. If I had to fight in a melee, then I'd chose the machete, and so on... On the whole, I'd rather be in Philadelphia. Best, Steve Lamade --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest