Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 15:31:18 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #221 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Dead Live Hand (Marc Denny) 2. RE: Dead Live Hand (1@msfencing.org) 3. Latigo; Fighting With Sabre and Cutlass (Stephen Lamade) 4. Russian Book (Lance Cross) 5. Re: Dead Live Hand (Patrick Pace) 6. Re: Dead Live Hand (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 03:07:40 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Dead Live Hand Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: This matter of the live hand is one of interest to me. This is how we organize the thinking in Dog Brothers Martial Arts. Naturally, it is A way, not THE way. For me it began with noticing that Top Dog frequently based his initial impressions of someone's movement in great part upon the quality of the movement of their live hand. For example, his first comment upon seeing some footage of GM Tatang Ilustrisimo doing single sword that PG Edgar had given me was "Great left hand!" At the time I thought it odd, but gradually came to understand this as a matter of the whole body working as an integrated whole. Top Dog relentlessly commented on my dangling live hand. I took to calling it the "limp" hand so as to provoke myself into doing something about it ;-) Over time I came to see three common types of weakness with regard to the live hand. a) the limp hand b) the "Errol Flynn"-- flapping about behind the fighter as if he were some deranged version of Errol Flynn in a sword fight in a pirate movie c) the "frozen hand"-- locked into position somewhere, often on the chest, with that whole quadrant of the body being shut down. As a teacher, my particular bias is to install things correctly from the very beginning-- my sense of how people learn is that it can be very difficult to change first habits. For example, my son's pre-kindergarten teacher sat facing her students when she taught them to write and thoughtfully drew her letters so that the lines would appear to them as drawn top to bottom, left to right. Of course to accomplish this for herself she was drawing the lines bottom to top and right to left. My son cleverly saw this and learned to write exactly as she did: BOTTOM to TOP and RIGHT to LEFT. Arrrgghh. Naturally his handwriting was terrible. Arrrgghh. The struggles we have gone through to get this out of his system have been considerable. Arrrgghh. Because of the strong emphasis on bilateralism in DBMA (quite a subject in its own right) we seek to get two birds with one stone by teaching/learning single stick motions on the complementary side first (e.g. a righty would learn the motions with his left hand first). Apart from the benefits in bilateralism from this approach in getting the complementary hand able to move well when called upon to act in the dominant function, it also makes for the practitioner used to using well that quadrant of his body when the stick is moved to the naturally dominant side (a transposition which occurs easily and quickly when moving from complementary to dominant side, but not vice versa). In other words, even though only the dominant hand is holding a weapon, the primary modality is that the live hand moves just as much. It is only at this point (i.e. the achievement of an integrated live hand) that long and short motions are trained in their own right. (As conceived in the theory of DBMA, single stick is a subcategory of long and short-- the live hand being the short.) As some of the previous posts have pointed out in this thread, important issues must be solved in order to not slash or stab oneself. For the moment I limit myself to pointing out that, for example, a worthy ice pick stab requires the complementary hand to act well in the dominant function-- in a manner very similar to throwing a ball and this teaching/learning methodology is designed to install just such a skill. This is not the only way to go about it. Guro Inosanto, whose first three areas are single stick/sword/etc, double, and Long and short, has commented more than once that for Manong John LaCoste that L&S was the first area, double the second, and single the third area and has said that if he had it to do over again he would do it as Manong LaCoste did. I've never heard him explain why, but my guess is that when we learn single first, the disparity between the dominant and complementary hand tends to be increased, but if we learn L&S first, the complementary hand is fully integrated with the dominant from the beginning. The Adventure continues, Guro Crafty > -- __--__-- > From: Ollie Batts > "...he got excited and came at me with a thrust to my face; the only > reason > I avoided it is because my alive hand reacted, and not in a asthetically > pleasing, technical way. We started laughing, and I told him, "That's why > you keep your other, nonweaponed hand on your chest!" > > Although I used to keep my left hand on my chest, when I started training > with Doce Pares Grandmaster Danny Guba, I soon found out that keeping my > left hand up and slightly out to the left side of my face was a far less > painful position for it to be held. > > So my question to the Digest is: How do the rest of you feel about this? > Does everyone believe that they should keep their non-weapon hand on their > chest? 'Keep' suggests 'always' to me. When practising strike, block and > counter strike (ABCedario) type drills, for example, the so-called 'Alive > hand' can very easily and quickly become the 'Dead hand' I've found. > > Pugil > > From: iPat > > My 'non stick' hand moves, almost in counterbalance. > The training for this came from Victor Gendrano of the Inosanto Academy > and > was reinforced during a private with Marc Denny. After that i started to > notice i was being taught that all the time but that the penny had never > dropped! Still trying to find the penny - comes from living in Scotland > this > long!! ; ) > > -- > Pat Davies > > I agree completely. The way we teach is that we start with hand on chest > because it's better there than dangling at their side (which, for some > reason, is what people tend to do with it). Once they get used to keeping > it up then we encourage them to experiment with other options as "home > base" ... but we always emphasize that it's never completely static. It's > always "alive" and ready to jump in to do it's part. > > And, of course, when you start playing with espada y daga, holding the > hand against the chest can be exceedingly dangerous since it can put the > blade near your throat or the brachial artery in your other arm (depending > on specifically how you hold the blade). > > There is a lot of material, though, that is done early in training that > changes later in training. Sometimes it's a training tool - like training > wheels on a bicycle - and once the student gets beyond the need for them, > they become a hinderance have to be taken off. Other times, we start with > the "ideal" option so that the student gets a lot of rep on it and it > feels completely comfortable to them. After that, then we can start > bringing in other options and explaining/exploring *when* those other > options are viable (or even preferrable). I look at "hand on chest" as a > litle of both of these types. If it's installed in the student but never > removed (i.e.: allowed to find it's own place) then, like the training > wheels, it can become detrimental. Then other options - like hand > chambered around hip for drawing a secondary weapon or whatever - should > come into play. But the student has to understand that *wherever* s/he > places that hand, it should be intentional and not > arbitrary. It's there for a reason. > > Mike --__--__-- Message: 2 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Dead Live Hand Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:09:34 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > -----Original Message----- > From: Marc Denny [mailto:craftydog@dogbrothers.com] > Because of the strong emphasis on bilateralism in DBMA (quite a subject in > its own right) we seek to get two birds with one stone by teaching/learning > single stick motions on the complementary side first (e.g. a righty would > learn the motions with his left hand first). The Goju Shorei Weapons System's yellow rank requires students to learn strike, block, and tip sets right handed and left handed. Students usually learn these sets with their dominant hand first. Then they spend a much longer time learning them with their non-dominant hand. I was fascinated when one of my students who is left handed chose to learn these sets with his non-dominant hand (right hand) first. He learned it at about the same rate as the right handed students. When the class started learning these sets left handed, amazingly he already had it down pat with no previous left handed practice. I am now considering requiring everyone to start with their non-dominant hand first. Blessings, Rez "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org / Mississippi Academy of Arms *//////{<>===========================- \ Virtute et Armis Teaching Fencing in Central Mississippi since 1980 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Stephen Lamade" To: Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 14:10:32 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Latigo; Fighting With Sabre and Cutlass Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rob Mulligan wrote, “Though not the same as the whips in this discussion, I have to give a plug for the whips made by my student, Jose Capitulo. They are hand made by Jose, and are exact replicas of the whips used by the the “calesa” drivers in Luzon. They are wound tapered rope with knots tied within the last foot or so of the whip and have the wire and thread wrapped rattan handles. He stiffens the rope with a marine shellac to make them as stiff or as pliable as the user wants. I have several original “calesa” whips brought back to me from the RP over the past twenty or so years, and his are indistinguishable from the originals. These are the real deal. Jose is on the digest and is easily contacted.” I've got one of Jose's latigos and they are truly a work of craftmanship. Also - I've seen what they can do in the right hands: the combination of stiff marine shellac with the numerous small knots along the end of the rope makes Jose's latigo a very scary weapon. Definitely worth a look at if you're interested in a fighting whip. Michael Koblic wrote, “Anthony DeLongis teaches sabre attacks both in the conventional lunge and "on the pass" with the "wrong" leg leading (see Cold Steel video "Fighting with sabre and cutlass"). It felt awkward to me when I tried it but then I realized that his method is not constrained by the 6-foot wide piste. Also, in current sports fencing that move would be illegal.” I just finished looking at both volumes of "Fighting with Sabre and Cutlass" (Cold Steel) and was very impressed both by the quality of instruction and the amount of information packed into the DVD set. While the price offered by Cold Steel may seem a little high, the DVD set gives a lot of bang for the buck and is definitely worth the price. It is also available now from re-sellers at a substantial discount if cost is a consideration. The first volume features Anthony DeLongis teaching classical sabre fencing as a martial art, and is, to my eye at least, singularly impressive. The second volume features Lynn Thompson teaching many techniques that will be familiar to those with training in the FMA's, and includes a chapter of sparring sequences that demonstrate the effectiveness of both weapons as self-defense tools. Best, Steve Lamade --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Lance Cross" To: Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:22:08 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Russian Book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I came across a book in my studies in Escrima that is entirely in Russian. Unfortunately the only access I have to translating it is through "bable fish" online translator. The book's title translates to "The fencing SYSTEMS OF THE EAST The daggers" and was wondering if anyone had experience or knowledge of what was shown in the book. Typing it in Cyrillic letter by letter is quite time consuming. Any help would be much appreciated. -Lance Cross, Escrima Enthusiast. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 09:10:08 -0700 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dead Live Hand From: Patrick Pace To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Rez, The same thing happened to me in American Kenpo (As it is a predominately Right handed system)...I am left handed but had to learn it all right sided. The same happened when learning Theatrical Combat (I am a stutnman) especially the Rapier and Small sword (another right handed system) when it came down to using the left hand (my dominant side-LOL I sound like I have multiple personalities) it was quite easy to change... I also now make sure my Kenpo left handed students train the same as the right as it quickly makes them ambidextrous in movement... Patrick On Sunday, July 16, 2006, at 07:09 AM, <1@msfencing.org> wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marc Denny [mailto:craftydog@dogbrothers.com] >> Because of the strong emphasis on bilateralism in DBMA (quite a >> subject in >> its own right) we seek to get two birds with one stone by > teaching/learning >> single stick motions on the complementary side first (e.g. a righty >> would >> learn the motions with his left hand first). > > The Goju Shorei Weapons System's yellow rank requires students to learn > strike, block, and tip sets right handed and left handed. Students > usually > learn these sets with their dominant hand first. Then they spend a much > longer time learning them with their non-dominant hand. > I was fascinated when one of my students who is left handed chose to > learn > these sets with his non-dominant hand (right hand) first. He learned > it at > about the same rate as the right handed students. When the class > started > learning these sets left handed, amazingly he already had it down pat > with > no previous left handed practice. I am now considering requiring > everyone to > start with their non-dominant hand first. > > Blessings, > Rez > > "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." > The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez > > Rez Johnson, M d'A > Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms > > President: United States Traditional Fencing Association > Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) > Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) > Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 > Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 > Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 > Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 > > Mississippi Academy of Arms > P.O. Box 955 > Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 > > E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org > Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org > USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org > > > / Mississippi Academy of Arms > *//////{<>===========================- > \ Virtute et Armis > > Teaching Fencing in Central Mississippi since 1980 > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dead Live Hand To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2006 16:28:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > As a teacher, my particular bias is to install things correctly from the > very beginning-- my sense of how people learn is that it can be very > difficult to change first habits. For example... On the other hand [pun intended]... there is a reason we don't typically teach Caculus or Group and Ring Theory in elementary school. We need to lay down a very firm foundation first. When someone only has a few months of training under their belt it is very easy for the instructor to overwhelm the student by correcting -all- their mistakes. It is for reason that we, or at least I, usually only pick one or two things to correct at a time and let the other five or ten errors wait for other lessons. IMHO Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest