Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2006 19:24:26 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #242 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: knife defense (jay de leon) 2. Re: Knife defense (bgdebuque) 3. Another kicking story (bgdebuque) 4. Bullwhip Lessons In The Los Angeles Area (Steve Kohn) 5. Re: Knife defense (Felipe Jocano) 6. Re: Another kicking story (Felipe Jocano) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 17:21:35 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: knife defense To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good point, pareng Bot. I also grew up in Manila. By extension, his point also applies to any "martial art." I used to regular run into people in Manila who did not train in conventional or traditional martial arts but could whip out a mean nunchuku, balisong or other bladed weapon, and could throw kicks and punches, and break boards just like a black belt. As Bot mentioned, for some of these people, these skills were acquired as part of their "on the job" training." But here is an interesting kicker. It included both sides of the law. For example, one of my judo instructors in high school was Master Arambulo (graduate of Kodokan) who was also a Quezon City cop. He would regularly bring rookie cops who were also rookie judoka to our classes. I am sure those rookie cops did not come for the exercise. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi, --- bgdebuque wrote: > .Of course, the outcome could have > been different had the > knifewielder been a trained bladefighter. > Fortunately, I have yet too hear > of a trained bladefighter who uses his/her skills to > rob people in the > streets of Manila. Um, I think it would be interesting to know what is meant by the term "trained bladefighter." A specialist in knife/sword combat? or a trained arnisador who also happens to know how to use the knife? Or....? Are you also referring to the source of training? As in only formal schools or can informal training be included? As for trained bladefighters using their skills for robbery, this is related to my first question. Trained bladefighters have used their skills to rob people in the streets of Manila. Their source of training was most likely through informal means, such as personal relationships with another skilled fighter. There is a likely chance that they learned their skills in prison, from ex-prisoners, from gang members (especially if they are members themselves) and even from their experiences while on the job, i.e., novices sent out under the supervision of an older robber. As far as I know, such training didn't have a set curriculum, but mostly tips and techniques that helped get the job done. So...if we include informal training in the definition of the bladefighter, then yes, trained bladefighters have used their skills in robbing people. The difference is in how we "see" such techniques or training, whether we are willing to include them as bladefighting training or not. Again, as far as I know, most robbers using knives have some sort of training to back them up. Just what we're not used to calling training as such. For what it's worth, I've lived here in Metro Manila all my life so far :-) Bot __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:11:29 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Knife defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would consider someone as "trained" if as a result of undergoing a disciplined and structured training program in any particular field of study, one was able to acquire a level of skill which is significantly better than the level of skill of the average person who has not undergone the same training. I guess the key words/phrases to consider are "structured", "disciplined" and "significant improvement of skill level". Although there may have been a few "trained" martial artists in the Philippines who have used their skills for not-so-lawful means, I have yet to hear of one who has stooped down to the level of becoming a knife-wielding street robber... =[:->] If indeed you personally know a few, it would be interesting to know what factors pushed them into such a low-esteem, low-income niche in the criminal world. Alcohol, drugs or plain old psychological problems could be potential reasons.... > > Um, I think it would be interesting to know what is > meant by the term "trained bladefighter." A specialist > in knife/sword combat? or a trained arnisador who also > happens to know how to use the knife? Or....? > Are you also referring to the source of training? As > in only formal schools or can informal training be > included? > > As for trained bladefighters using their skills for > robbery, this is related to my first question. Trained > bladefighters have used their skills to rob people in > the streets of Manila. Their source of training was > most likely through informal means, such as personal > relationships with another skilled fighter. There is a > likely chance that they learned their skills in > prison, from ex-prisoners, from gang members > (especially if they are members themselves) and even > from their experiences while on the job, i.e., novices > sent out under the supervision of an older robber. > > As far as I know, such training didn't have a set > curriculum, but mostly tips and techniques that helped > get the job done. > > So...if we include informal training in the definition > of the bladefighter, then yes, trained bladefighters > have used their skills in robbing people. The > difference is in how we "see" such techniques or > training, whether we are willing to include them as > bladefighting training or not. > > Again, as far as I know, most robbers using knives > have some sort of training to back them up. Just what > we're not used to calling training as such. > > For what it's worth, I've lived here in Metro Manila > all my life so far :-) > > Bot --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:53:52 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Another kicking story Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This one happened at about 11PM inside a jeepney plying the Lawton-Project 8 route. Somewhere along Espana Avenue, 3 knifewielding robbers inside the jeepney announced a hold-up. One was sitting beside the driver, while 2 were sitting at the back of the jeepney. One of the robbers at the back blocked the jeepney exit while the other one acted as the "collector" of the passenger's valuables - cellphones, wallets, wristwatches and other jewelry. A passenger sitting directly behind the driver, told "Mr. Collector" to excuse him from the collection activity because he has really nothing to give. Enraged by this act of defiance, the collector cursed the uncooperative passenger and, knife in his right hand, attempted to grab the shirt of the uncooperative passenger with his left hand. Bad move. Mr. Uncooperative Passenger gave Mr. Collector a push kick-cum-heel stomp on the chest sending him flying towards the back of the jeepney. Almost simultaneously, Mr. Uncooperative Passenger drew the Glock tucked under his shirt. Apparently, in the confusion and the low visibility conditions inside the jeepney, Mr. Collector failed to spot that a Glock has been drawn and lunged forward to stab Mr. Uncooperative Passenger. A single 9x19 round to the chest stopped Mr. Collector in his tracks. Mr. Blocker immediately jumped out of the jeepney but was not fast enough to avoid getting a 9x19 "goodbye" round in the spine. Only the robber sitting in front managed to get away unscathed... I guess, in this particular case, the kick "bought" priceless time for the defender to enable him to deploy his primary weapon. It also misled the attacker into the fatal assumption that he is just up against a "kicking" opponent. He probably never even knew what hit him in the chest... --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Bullwhip Lessons In The Los Angeles Area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, I am now offering Bullwhip instruction in the Los Angeles area. I teach 4.5, 6 & 8 foot bullwhip techniques based on Master Tom Meadow's Latigo y Daga system and Anthony DeLongis' Combative/Theatrical whip protocol. Please send all inquiries to musilat2@yahoo.com Best, Steve Kohn --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:06:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Knife defense To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ah, this is interesting. Here we go.... We can perhaps maintain the distinction between formally trained and informally trained. By formally trained, we include the main elements you describe - "structured," "disciplined," and "significant improvement of skill level." By informally trained, we include training that is "caught," so to speak, and not "imparted systematically," as formal training implies. One more thing - a formal training program often involves the indoctrination into a shared set of values, most of which include a respect for the law and a screening of students in order to exclude anyone deemed undesirable. Informal training can be looser than this, particularly if the venue is criminal activity. You are correct in that the majority of the formally trained martial artists avoid involvement in criminal activity, such as robbery. Others have, however, been involved in other felonious pastimes, such as assaults on their rivals - and not been caught. The informally trained fighters are the ones that are worrisome - they do stuff that the formally trained martial artists don't often see and which throws them into a loop when it comes out :-) the LEOs here will know what I mean :-) One of my teachers showed me a technique that came from one of his friends who in turn lived for a while in a part of town inhabited by excons. From what I gathered from his stories, many of the knife-wielding robbers learned their material in prison. It makes me curious personally as to the hows of their training methodology and if indeed this is reflective of structure form of training - although something we wouldn't recognize as such right away. Aother of my friends had a private student who was an ex-gang member. He narrated how the gang members trained together in various techniques of surveillance and assault, including personal combat. As for local formally trained martial artists going into criminal activity such as armed robbery, sad to say I don't know anyone personally - yet. However, there was a news item about a foreign kidnap-for-ransom gang operating a fulltime martial arts school as a front for their activities here. Some of them had been caught and imprisoned; presumably the head of the school had disowned them and their activities. At least I hope so. On the other hand, there were stories in the local martial arts community about a local martial artist involved in a criminal gang. Many of his friends were shocked to discover his real "career," so to speak. The one who told me the story in particular was angry at the betrayal they all felt. Reasons - I could add to the list the amounts of money involved, plus the psychological thrills. However, unless I get to meet one personally and ask, I wouldn't know. Not that I'm in a hurry, though. ;-)Would make an interesting, if (very) risky study, though. Rumors surfaced though, about a group of pickpockets and robbers learning martial arts in order to better deal with their victims. As one of them allegedly said to another friend of mine, "Ang dami nang may alam na kasi eh. Mahirap na." (Lots of people know something already. It's difficult.) I said allegedly - he didn't want to elaborate anymore on this tale he told me. I don't know what you'd make of it - it could be an urban legend, but it does leave me with the nagging feeling, "What if....?" Bot --- bgdebuque wrote: > I would consider someone as "trained" if as a result > of undergoing a > disciplined and structured training program in any > particular field of > study, one was able to acquire a level of skill > which is > significantly better than the level of skill of the > average person who has > not undergone the same training. > > I guess the key words/phrases to consider are > "structured", "disciplined" > and "significant improvement of skill level". > > Although there may have been a few "trained" martial > artists in the > Philippines who have used their skills for > not-so-lawful means, I have yet > to hear of one who has stooped down to the level of > becoming a > knife-wielding street robber... =[:->] > > If indeed you personally know a few, it would be > interesting to know what > factors pushed them into such a low-esteem, > low-income niche in the criminal > world. Alcohol, drugs or plain old psychological > problems could be > potential reasons.... > > > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 20:14:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Another kicking story To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Nice one! What scares me though is the risk of hitting one of the other passengers or a bystander. But still... --- bgdebuque wrote: > This one happened at about 11PM inside a jeepney > plying the Lawton-Project 8 > route. > > Somewhere along Espana Avenue, 3 knifewielding > robbers inside the jeepney > announced a hold-up. > > One was sitting beside the driver, while 2 were > sitting at the back of the > jeepney. > > One of the robbers at the back blocked the jeepney > exit while the other one > acted as the "collector" of the passenger's > valuables - cellphones, wallets, > wristwatches and other jewelry. > > A passenger sitting directly behind the driver, told > "Mr. Collector" to > excuse him from the collection activity because he > has really nothing to > give. Enraged by this act of defiance, the > collector cursed the > uncooperative passenger and, knife in his right > hand, attempted to grab the > shirt of the uncooperative passenger with his left > hand. > > Bad move. > > Mr. Uncooperative Passenger gave Mr. Collector a > push kick-cum-heel stomp on > the chest sending him flying towards the back of the > jeepney. Almost > simultaneously, Mr. Uncooperative Passenger drew the > Glock tucked under his > shirt. > > Apparently, in the confusion and the low visibility > conditions inside the > jeepney, Mr. Collector failed to spot that a Glock > has been drawn and lunged > forward to stab Mr. Uncooperative Passenger. A > single 9x19 round to the > chest stopped Mr. Collector in his tracks. > > Mr. Blocker immediately jumped out of the jeepney > but was not fast enough to > avoid getting a 9x19 "goodbye" round in the spine. > > Only the robber sitting in front managed to get away > unscathed... > > I guess, in this particular case, the kick "bought" > priceless time for the > defender to enable him to deploy his primary weapon. > It also misled the > attacker into the fatal assumption that he is just > up against a "kicking" > opponent. He probably never even knew what hit him > in the chest... > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest