Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 07:45:21 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #244 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: knife defense (james jr. sy) 2. Criminal Knife Training (Marc Denny) 3. Re: Re: knife defense (iPat) 4. Re: Bullwhip Lessons In The Los Angeles Area - CORRECTION (Steve Kohn) 5. Self-defence? (Ollie Batts) 6. Garimot seminar in St. Louis (tim) 7. knife defense (Jorge Penafiel) 8. RE: Self-defence? (Ken Borowiec) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 06:05:45 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: knife defense To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Prof. Joacno's definition of a bladefighter is a reality here in the Philippines. The Philippines is a blade culture. There are more fatalities of hacking and stabbing here than being shot (which is more prevalent in the US, which happens to be a gun culture) or being killed with empty hands. Many who use the knife in combat in the Philippines would not be considered as martial artists in the normal usage of the term. Even common thieves or drug dependents use the knife. Their "schooling" with the knife is mostly experience or as Prof. Jocano said, with some technical advice from more senior thieves or associates. What is known is that these kind of people tend to study "normal" martial arts counters against the knife, which makes it even more dangerous to face them. Know the enemy. These individuals have advantages the "normal" martial artists doesn't have. They have less to worry when they use the knife (i.e. no worry of losing a job or being jailed, morality, etc.) which makes them more ferocious in their attacks. The "normal" martial artist, on the other hand, have certain reservations. When a "civilized" person is attacked, he tends to reason because of societal norms. These individuals are used to the splatter of warm blood wwhich will normally send a normal citizen flinching. They have experienced how to stab and thrust, flesh, blood, bone and all. Their mdindset makes them one with the knife. And the psychology of these knife wielding criminals is that there is no such thing as a "knife fight" because they will be the only ones to slice. Normally they will not allow their victims to defend (that is why there is the alive/checking hand). It is very true that the prison is a very good breeding place for knife skills where makeshift stabbing instruments come into play during riots. Culturally speaking, sikaran and yaw yan are the most popular kicking styles in the Philippines. Definitely these systems/styles have their own knife defenses. I'm not just sure with the degree of the use of the hands or legs. What I'm sure is that sikaran was developed by farmers as a game between two unarmed combatants. I had some yaw yan sessions with Sir Henry Kobyashi, a student of the founder of the art Grandmaster Napoleon Fernandez, in Mandaluyong City. The knife defenses he taught me were with the use of the hands, minimal movement and direct. Almost all of the myriad of Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) systems/styles teach a hand based method of knife defense. If kicks are ever involved, it woudld be most likely to be a follow up when the weapon hand is controlled. The key word is controlled or immobilized. Based on some research on local hospitals here in Bacolod City, those who survive knife attacks most of the time have defensive wounds in the arms. It hands/arms, which move faster because of their relative smaller size as compared to the legs and is more dexterous, can be cut, then the probability of the leg being cut is higher. This is the reason most Filipinos would rather use the hands in defending against the knife. When one's life is at stake, one can't affordd to risk his most precious possession. Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi, --- bgdebuque wrote: > .Of course, the outcome could have > been different had the > knifewielder been a trained bladefighter. > Fortunately, I have yet too hear > of a trained bladefighter who uses his/her skills to > rob people in the > streets of Manila. Um, I think it would be interesting to know what is meant by the term "trained bladefighter." A specialist in knife/sword combat? or a trained arnisador who also happens to know how to use the knife? Or....? Are you also referring to the source of training? As in only formal schools or can informal training be included? As for trained bladefighters using their skills for robbery, this is related to my first question. Trained bladefighters have used their skills to rob people in the streets of Manila. Their source of training was most likely through informal means, such as personal relationships with another skilled fighter. There is a likely chance that they learned their skills in prison, from ex-prisoners, from gang members (especially if they are members themselves) and even from their experiences while on the job, i.e., novices sent out under the supervision of an older robber. As far as I know, such training didn't have a set curriculum, but mostly tips and techniques that helped get the job done. So...if we include informal training in the definition of the bladefighter, then yes, trained bladefighters have used their skills in robbing people. The difference is in how we "see" such techniques or training, whether we are willing to include them as bladefighting training or not. Again, as far as I know, most robbers using knives have some sort of training to back them up. Just what we're not used to calling training as such. For what it's worth, I've lived here in Metro Manila all my life so far :-) Bot __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 21:49:07 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Criminal Knife Training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof: Interesting discussion concerning the cultivation of skills, techniques, tactics and tricks by criminals. I was always impressed by just how much many people broke down in our stickfighting under the pressure of simple aggressive power. This led me to have a teaching philosophy in DBMA of preparing people to hit hard, fast and often and to deal with adversaries seeking to do the same as the first order of business. When it comes to training people to defend the knife in DBMA the same principle applies. We begin by teaching people to deal with what we call a "prison sewing machine" attack-- repeated enraged primal thrusts from somewhere on the forehand side combined with extreme forward pressure. My good friend, my hero and my long-time student Federal prison guard Dogzilla demonstrates the PSM in our "Die Less Often" clip at www.dogbrothers.com IMHO it would be foolish to assume that over time there is not a powerful Darwinian dynamic involved in the transmission of knowledge and skill in prison/criminal circles. What these folks do, have seen done, is passed down by those who have done it and seen it done. It is done with a very animalistic understanding of the psychological/emotional dimension on both the killer's part and on the prey's part. (Animal's "Surviving Edged Weapons" has a nice fight scene at the end that conveys this well). Woof, Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 10:20:08 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: knife defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net in my small experience of facing a real knife i was able to pull a colleague away from the blow and close the door on the second thrust. My colleague never ever believed me there was a knife. The perpertrator was skilled and i doubt i would have attempted a kick, besides the door was now shut. another situation came from a scrawney junkie who was using the knife in an attempt to rob someone. A kick would have worked but as it turned out the growling was enough. Theres a time and a place no doubt when a kick may work but against someone who knows how to use it im looking for the exit. When being paid to be there to deal with any situation within reason, a broken bottle is as dangerous as a knife and i had to step inside of many of them over my time. Most of those guys were drunk and didnt know how to really wield other than a club type swing. I recall getting a lecture from the police on hogmanay when someone who had been refused entry several times and was beligerent put there hand on their back pocket. I had immediately struck the person in a pre emptive strike which knocked him onto a car before he ran off. The policemen only saw me hit and i wasnt arrested as the 'victim' wasnt around to make a charge. I spoke before on the list about fronting a house breaker at xmas time who wielded a baseball bat and it was on grass, after rain, and i was below on a slope. tryingto crash in (full of the flu as well) as the swing went past wasn't easy in these conditions as we simply dont train for it. Do i advocate disarming to my students, no. I advocate awareness. Dont be there is the best defence. You want to think you can kick the knife? How do you think the knife will be presented to you? dream on On 8/3/06, sifo wrote: > > I've read so many incidents on the newspaper in Hong Kong that > perpetrators > were apprehended by police because the person who tried to rob them with > knife fought back and were actually kicked in private parts, knees or > shins. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 00:15:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Kohn Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bullwhip Lessons In The Los Angeles Area - CORRECTION To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Please note the correct spelling of Master Tom Meadows. Sorry for any inconvenience this may have caused. Best, Steve Steve Kohn wrote: Hi All, I am now offering Bullwhip instruction in the Los Angeles area. I teach 4.5, 6 & 8 foot bullwhip techniques based on Master Tom Meadow's Latigo y Daga system and Anthony DeLongis' Combative/Theatrical whip protocol. Please send all inquiries to musilat2@yahoo.com Best, Steve Kohn --------------------------------- How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2006 11:30:33 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Self-defence? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net bgdebuque wrote: "Mr. Blocker immediately jumped out of the jeepney but was not fast enough to avoid getting a 9x19 "goodbye" round in the spine." Interesting, but wasn't the self-defence bit over by then? So can we assume that retribution a justifiable act nowadays? Judge, jury and executioner eh! Pugil --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 07:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: tim To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Garimot seminar in St. Louis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Founder/Grandmaster of Garimot Arnis and Harimaw Buno GAT Phase – 1 & BUNO Phase – 1 Seminar Essential single stick, double stick, and knife techniques, and basics of Harimaw Buno (Filipino wrestling) Date: September 23 - 24, 2006 Time: 10 am – 5 pm both days Place: Shaolin Lohan School of Kung Fu 8348 Olive Blvd. St. Louis, MO 63132 Additionally, Gat Puno Baet will hold a Hilot workshop on Saturday after the seminar. For information contact: Tim Rivera Phone: (314) 603-4470 e-mail: tim.rivera@gmail.com http://www.garimot.com/ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:22:15 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] knife defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jay,,welcome back from your PI trip!! Bit the FMA festivities were awessome,,and Bot a classmate Joselito Azarcon, one of your colleagues in the UP Engineering Dept. says hello, Ilongo and knows your Dad but says he had not met you yet. So, hope for you both to bump into each other one day around the campus. == Anyhow, back to thread on thugs, knife defense, and my thoughts from the peanut gallery as well. Specifically these knife welding thugs who pry the streets of Manila has one purpose - that is to be the scrooge and a pain for the public. Usually, they are products of society mistakes and the criminal world. Their's was street MA arts then progressing to now which I refer to as reality-no nonsense MA. Their training grounds are the streets and knowledge gained from real experiences. Their approach is intimidation, fear, and mayhem thus, in a way very effective against plain folks. No second thoughts for them to act violently either once provoked or irked. Presently, these people had progress to being organize too thus you see them operating in tandems - 2 lookouts and one busy gathering the loot.. Way back our community "ronda" (volunteer nite watchers) caught one hiding under a park car fully naked for nite invisibility. Before the cops came, our group did a number on him. He remained tough, though hurt in many ways, he was not a squealer. One thing we know was that he is not from around our area but rather was drop in our neighborhood that nite. Defense against these guys,,,well "luck" for sure and perhaps a little bit MA knowledge, lots of courage will help but not guaranteed. One thing,,they know their playing fields, people, their rights, and respects the gun. OK,,still better trained than not for us in the arts!! Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Self-defence? Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 11:37:55 -0400 From: "Ken Borowiec" To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "officer I was in fear of my life." Ken -----Original Message----- From: Ollie Batts [mailto:ollie@kalifit.com] Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 6:31 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Self-defence? bgdebuque wrote: "Mr. Blocker immediately jumped out of the jeepney but was not fast enough to avoid getting a 9x19 "goodbye" round in the spine." Interesting, but wasn't the self-defence bit over by then? So can we assume that retribution a justifiable act nowadays? Judge, jury and executioner eh! Pugil _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest