Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 02:59:46 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #247 - 3 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: A campfire discussion about martial arts (Todd Ellner) 2. Re: Re: A campfire discussion about martial arts (jay de leon) 3. Campfire discussion on Martial Arts (Michael Koblic) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2006 19:00:01 -0700 From: Todd Ellner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: A campfire discussion about martial arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There are other people on this list who are much more qualified than I to talk about Western Martial Arts. Listen to them. But since this is tha Intrawebs everyone can toss in his two cents. I've seen a fair number of old fighting manuals from Europe. Some of them certainly concentrated on one or two weapons. There are plenty of others that include a variety of tools as well as wrestling against armed opponents. We know that various sorts of boxing and wrestling were popular in Europe as far back as we have records. The use of the staff, the club, and the sword were all popular depending on one's social class. There were academies of combatives at least from the Renaissance forward to the 19th century. Various militaries trained soldiers and officers in the weapons and skills appropriate to their responsibilities. There were schools of thought and fighting traditions such as the use of the German Longsword in judicial combat and the Spanish school of the rapier that survived and evolved for a very long time. If those aren't "martial arts" I can't imagine what would qualify. Many of the new Asian martial arts - karate, Associatio kendo, most schools of Chinese boxing, kenpo and so on - aren't comprehensive systems. They have their specialties and don't often stray far from them. The older ones are more likely to be comprehensive, emphasizing the range of weapons and tactics a practioner might face. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: A campfire discussion about martial arts To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And I cannot imagine any more "extreme" martial arts school than a gladiator school. An interesting bit of trivia is that not only slaves and captured prisoners fought in the arena. Free citizens fought for the prize and the glory of triumph in the arena. I wonder if these adventurers trained alongside the slaves and other riffraff in a regular school. In high school, i read a book called "Men of Iron," about medieval knights It got me to wonder how one became a knight (versus being a foot soldier). In addition to the lineage and heraldic trappings, I assume there were minimum requirements of martial arts skills. Were all knights required to joust? How did they acquire these skills? Jay de Leon Todd Ellner wrote: There are other people on this list who are much more qualified than I to talk about Western Martial Arts. Listen to them. But since this is tha Intrawebs everyone can toss in his two cents. I've seen a fair number of old fighting manuals from Europe. Some of them certainly concentrated on one or two weapons. There are plenty of others that include a variety of tools as well as wrestling against armed opponents. We know that various sorts of boxing and wrestling were popular in Europe as far back as we have records. The use of the staff, the club, and the sword were all popular depending on one's social class. There were academies of combatives at least from the Renaissance forward to the 19th century. Various militaries trained soldiers and officers in the weapons and skills appropriate to their responsibilities. There were schools of thought and fighting traditions such as the use of the German Longsword in judicial combat and the Spanish school of the rapier that survived and evolved for a very long time. If those aren't "martial arts" I can't imagine what would qualify. Many of the new Asian martial arts - karate, Associatio kendo, most schools of Chinese boxing, kenpo and so on - aren't comprehensive systems. They have their specialties and don't often stray far from them. The older ones are more likely to be comprehensive, emphasizing the range of weapons and tactics a practioner might face. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:21:16 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Campfire discussion on Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rez Johnson wrote: "Actually this is a common myth that gets repeated so often that folks believe it. If you look at some of the surviving manuals left by the European masters from the 13th century onward you will find that many of them taught highly systematic and complete martial arts which included punching, kicking, take downs, grappling, wrestling, disarms, dagger, long knife, longsword, short sword and buckler, quarterstaff, armored fighting, unarmored fighting, fighting on foot, fighting on horseback. That would be pretty complete for the 13th century. You have to realize these guys were warriors. They had to know more than just cut and thrust in order survive. These guys were highly trained and highly efficient warriors juts like their eastern counterparts the samurai. Their art was battle tested and refined over and over again. German master Johannes Liechtenauer had codified his complete martial art and written a manual on it by 1389. It included the above mentioned sub-arts. From the 13th to 16th centuries there were over 50 different manuals written by these warrior masters in Germany alone. Many were complete martial arts. The Italians masters had similar complete martial arts." The situation seems even more complex after the 17th century. Unless I am wrong there was no warfare in Japan after the 1630's. After the last major battle (Sekigahara) there was a Christian rebellion suppressed by the (3rd?) Shogun and that was that until the Meiji restoration and even later. Although the Samurai class persisted and presumably continued to train, there was no "field testing". Furthermore the samurai position was codified in the stringent laws and no fresh blood could penetrate and challenge the prevailing dogmas on martial arts. During the same time the Europeans were at it practically all the time. The gun replaced the long bow (which was actually a superior weapon until the advent of a breech-loading rifle) but edged weapons were used till the 20th century although their role on the field of battle was considerably degraded. During the same years duelling was rife and bladed arts flourished and were constantly field tested. Thus I find it somewhat puzzling that the Japanese arts are imbued by such mystique and are considered by many to be superior to the European styles of fighting. Leaving aside for the moment the question of the quality of the respective weapons (the Japanese sword being widely regarded as the standard by which others are judged) I cannot help but wonder: Is Japanese swordsmanship truly superior to, say, Hungarian school of sabre? Has this ever been tested in real life? Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest