Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 14:51:18 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #248 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Western Systems (Ollie Batts) 2. Jeepney? (Ollie Batts) 3. Medieval Knights (Ollie Batts) 4. Bakbakan Kali Workshop - Bakbakan WHQ - 27 August 2006 (Peter Lewis) 5. Cheap Ryan Model 7 (buz_ed_alias@mac.com) 6. Re: knife defense (bgdebuque) 7. Re: A shocking difference (bgdebuque) 8. Re: Western Systems (Steve Ames) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 11:55:50 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Western Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Amen to all that! You might also like to check out such websites as: http://www.aemma.org/ and then follow the links, or search Google for the many others. Pugil Message: 6 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] A camp fire discussion on Martial Arts Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:01:01 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I replied they > do martial arts but not one system that had all the parts of a typical martial > arts system we are used to today. Typical meaning? Most of the typical eastern martial art systems today do not seem to me to be complete: Aikido, Judo, Jujitsu, Taekwondo, Karate, Kendo, Iaijutsu, bojutsu, jojutsu. These all appear to me to be sub arts which are not complete. Pieces of the original and complete samurai art. > ... I > replied Europeans had English Boxing, Savate- kicking, Greco-Roman wresting, > Sword & dagger fencing, French stick fighting, English quarter staff, > Protigies long stick and Archery but not any one place ever had all the pieces > together. Actually this is a common myth that gets repeated so often that folks believe it. If you look at some of the surviving manuals left by the European masters from the 13th century onward you will find that many of them taught highly systematic and complete martial arts which included punching, kicking, take downs, grappling, wrestling, disarms, dagger, long knife, longsword, short sword and buckler, quarterstaff, armored fighting, unarmored fighting, fighting on foot, fighting on horseback. That would be pretty complete for the 13th century. You have to realize these guys were warriors. They had to know more than just cut and thrust in order survive. These guys were highly trained and highly efficient warriors juts like their eastern counterparts the samurai. Their art was battle tested and refined over and over again. German master Johannes Liechtenauer had codified his complete martial art and written a manual on it by 1389. It included the above mentioned sub-arts. From the 13th to 16th centuries there were over 50 different manuals written by these warrior masters in Germany alone. Many were complete martial arts. The Italians masters had similar complete martial arts. It is also a common myth that these warriors wore armor that was so heavy they needed hoists to lift them onto their horses and that their sword art was nothing more than smash and bang. When you examine the armor from that day (and actually put it on) and study the old manuals you find that these warrior were high tech for their day. Their swords were 1.5 to 2.7 lbs not 20 lbs as some myths say. These guys were serious warriors who used the best equipment and techniques of their day. I dare say that most of them could take any of us out quiet easily if we could go back in time and have a go at them. Blessings, Rez "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org / Mississippi Academy of Arms *//////{<>===========================- \ Virtute et Armis Teaching Fencing in Central Mississippi since 1980 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:38:26 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Jeepney? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I really only posted on this to play Devil's Advocate, to an extent. The original story mentioned that it was dark. A shot was fired in the dark in the direction of someone apparently running away from the Jeepney (what's a Jeepney by the way?). The person running away could have been anyone, such as another passenger, or passer by, who was simply fleeing from the gunfire. The shot hit the person in the spine, so he clearly was not turning to fire his own weapon at that moment in time. The fact that it later turned out to be a known felon still begs the question: 'Are people in some parts of the world allowed to act as Judge, Jury and Executioner'? Capital punishment is officially no longer allowed in the UK, although fairly recent actions by certain Police officers throw some doubt in the direction of that statement. I'm pretty sure that the Police Officer truly believed he was dealing with a terrorist when he fired several shots into the head of a Brazilian student, whose only crime it seems was that he had overstayed his visa time limit. Even if capital punishment was allowed here, I would think that this country would come in for some severe criticism from other countries if we were to adopt that kind of policy for dealing with illegal immigrants, let alone those overstaying their visas! By the sound of it, life in the Philippines is somewhat less valuable generally, and the law on self-defence seems to be rather more 'flexible' than we (legally) have available to us in the UK. Pugil Message: 2 Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 23:46:09 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Self defense? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And who do you think will testify in favor of the 3 robbers? Not the jeepney driver who just got his neck poked by a knife. And, definitely not the jeepney passengers who had just been threatened by 2 knife-wielding thugs and divested of their few precious personal belongings. "Jeepney na lang nga ang kayang sakyan! Nanakawan pa!" Not even the surviving robber, because, in all likelihood, he has already several pending criminal cases against him. The Police would probably throw a party if he shows his face in a precinct to file a complaint. It is interesting to note though how a bleeding heart can easily elevate an otherwise vicious attacker into the status of victim and vice versa... =[:->] Reminds me a lot of the Sonny Parsons case... It would be interesting to know what choices you will make if by some twist of fate you would find yourself in a similar situation... =[:->] --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 13:15:14 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Medieval Knights Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There are a mass of books out there on the subject, if you care to look and are really interested. According to the Introduction of: Arms & Armour of The Medieval Knight, by David Edge & John Miles Paddock - Defoe Publishing, London, 1988 "The medieval knight is generally perceived as a mounted warrior, armed cap-å-pied, bound by the codes of chivalry. The close association of the knight and his horse is clearly shown by the titles by which he was known throughout Europe; in France he was a chevalier, in Italy a cavaliere, in Spain a caballero, and in Germany a ritter, from the word meaning to ride. Even the name for the code by which the knight was later to be bound, chivalry, derives from the French cheval. It is only in England that the word 'knight' has no direct association with the horse. It comes from the Anglo-Saxon word cniht, meaning household retainer or servant, and it is not until the 12th century that knighthood and chivalry becomes inextricably associated with gentle birth." [Coming from a higher class.] Knights were paid retainers (not mercenaries). They swore allegiance to a particular land-owner, or to their monarch, and they were usually prepared to fight honourably to the death if need be. When I say honourably, that really only applied to when they fought against other knights. Anyone of a lower social class were considered scum, and were butchered accordingly. Tournaments, including jousting and other mock battles, was simply a means of knights practising their skill at arms with one another between wars. It wasn't actually life or death real combat, but it was pretty damn close. A bit like a Dog Brother's gathering I'd guess! ;o) Pugil Message: 2 Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 20:01:47 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: A campfire discussion about martial arts To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net " In high school, i read a book called "Men of Iron," about medieval knights It got me to wonder how one became a knight (versus being a foot soldier). In addition to the lineage and heraldic trappings, I assume there were minimum requirements of martial arts skills. Were all knights required to joust? How did they acquire these skills?" Jay de Leon --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 15:00:34 +0100 From: Peter Lewis Organization: Worcester Eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Bakbakan Kali Workshop - Bakbakan WHQ - 27 August 2006 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mabuhay Master Rey Galang will be conducting an open seminar / workshop on Bakbakan Kali. The details are as follows: BAKBAKAN KALI OPEN Seminar/Workshop at the WHQ, Lodi, New Jersey August 27, 2006 1:00pm - 5:00pm Seminar Fee: $60 ($50 for Members & Active Affiliates) Open for Affiliate Membership candidates/applicants This is truly an event not to be missed, and I shall be travelling from the UK to participate in the seminar, and also to undergo very intensive Bakbakan Kali training and to participate in the rite of passage to full-fledged member status. I look forward to meeting some of you at this event. Gumagalang Peter --__--__-- Message: 5 From: buz_ed_alias@mac.com Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 13:06:56 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cheap Ryan Model 7 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A favorite carry folder of mine, the Ryan model 7, is available from Smoky Mountain Knife Works for $19.99 ($17.99 for 3 or more), a pretty amazing price. The URL for the site is: http://www.eknifeworks.com/ Only complaint I have about the Ryan is that something about its design allows loose change to lodge between the frame and blade when the knife is carried loose in the pocket. Other than that I really like the blade. Though it's not quite my speed, they also have the Columbia River Hissatsu priced at $29.99. At that price I'll pick one up just to play with. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:35:41 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] knife defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Perfectly said. As Musashi has famously written, the perfect warrior should have no likes and dislikes. He/she should also have the ability to strike from the "void". Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 15:38:57 -0700 > From: "Joseph Marana" > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: knife defense > To: > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > I think it can be dangerous to limit our options to blanket rules (never > kick a weapon, never kick to the head, never turn your back/attempt > spinning > flying kicks, etc.). What would not be some of our first options may very > well have a time and place. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 17:39:39 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] A shocking difference Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think Tactical Knives featured this device a few months ago. This is probably the "shock of truth" that most knife disarming techniques out there sorely needs... =[:->] > Message: 5 > From: "Marc Denny" > To: > Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 22:54:43 -0700 > Subject: [Eskrima] A shocking difference > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Woof All: > > > In this Gathering for the first time we used the "Shocknife", courtesy of > Jeff Quail. The SK generates a goodly amount of electricity, with blue > sparks coming from the edge when at the top setting- which of course is > what > we used. Before the fights began I chatted with the crowd and zapped > several semi-willing members of the audience. Their reactions persuaded > the > rest of those there that the SK does indeed pack some zip. > > That said, when it came time to fight, not many fighters were willing to > give it a go-- which tells me we may be on to something good :-). --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 18:18:03 -0400 From: Steve Ames To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Western Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net WMA is alive and well. There's been a growing number of books and videos in recent years (check out http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/ for a sampling). I just returned from 4 days of sword swinging goodness up in Lansing, MI where the 7th International Swordfighting and Martial Arts Convention (ISMAC: http://artofcombat.org/public/thespis/convention/aocflyer.htm) was held. Great time. Another good organizational website (with a lot of translated sources online) is www.thearma.org .. my favorite discussion site is SFI (http://forums.swordforum.com/). Western Martial Arts have lot of great stuff including a lot of "wrestling" that includes throws and takedowns (not so much into locks and submissions though). Knife/Dagger work seems pretty first rate. I saw a demo of "single stick" this weekend. Not what I was expecting at all :) -steve On Sun, Aug 06, 2006 at 11:55:50AM +0100, Ollie Batts wrote: > Amen to all that! You might also like to check out such websites as: > > http://www.aemma.org/ > > and then follow the links, or search Google for the many others. > > > Pugil > > > Message: 6 > From: <1@msfencing.org> > To: > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] A camp fire discussion on Martial Arts > Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2006 05:01:01 -0500 > Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > I replied they > > do martial arts but not one system that had all the parts of a typical > martial > > arts system we are used to today. > > Typical meaning? > > Most of the typical eastern martial art systems today do not seem to me to > be complete: Aikido, Judo, Jujitsu, Taekwondo, Karate, Kendo, Iaijutsu, > bojutsu, jojutsu. > > These all appear to me to be sub arts which are not complete. Pieces of the > original and complete samurai art. > > > ... I > > replied Europeans had English Boxing, Savate- kicking, Greco-Roman > wresting, > > Sword & dagger fencing, French stick fighting, English quarter staff, > > Protigies long stick and Archery but not any one place ever had all the > pieces > > together. > > Actually this is a common myth that gets repeated so often that folks > believe it. If you look at some of the surviving manuals left by the > European masters from the 13th century onward you will find that many of > them taught highly systematic and complete martial arts which included > punching, kicking, take downs, grappling, wrestling, disarms, dagger, long > knife, longsword, short sword and buckler, quarterstaff, armored fighting, > unarmored fighting, fighting on foot, fighting on horseback. That would be > pretty complete for the 13th century. You have to realize these guys were > warriors. They had to know more than just cut and thrust in order survive. > These guys were highly trained and highly efficient warriors juts like their > eastern counterparts the samurai. Their art was battle tested and refined > over and over again. German master Johannes Liechtenauer had codified his > complete martial art and written a manual on it by 1389. It included the > above mentioned sub-arts. From the 13th to 16th centuries there were over 50 > different manuals written by these warrior masters in Germany alone. Many > were complete martial arts. The Italians masters had similar complete > martial arts. > > It is also a common myth that these warriors wore armor that was so heavy > they needed hoists to lift them onto their horses and that their sword art > was nothing more than smash and bang. When you examine the armor from that > day (and actually put it on) and study the old manuals you find that these > warrior were high tech for their day. Their swords were 1.5 to 2.7 lbs not > 20 lbs as some myths say. These guys were serious warriors who used the best > equipment and techniques of their day. I dare say that most of them could > take any of us out quiet easily if we could go back in time and have a go at > them. > > Blessings, > Rez > > "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." > The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez > > Rez Johnson, M d'A > Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms > > President: United States Traditional Fencing Association > Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) > Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) > Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 > Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 > Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 > Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 > > Mississippi Academy of Arms > P.O. Box 955 > Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 > > E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org > Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org > USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org > > > / Mississippi Academy of Arms > *//////{<>===========================- > \ Virtute et Armis > > Teaching Fencing in Central Mississippi since 1980 > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest