Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 05:32:12 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #250 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Jeepney? (bgdebuque) 2. Knife defence (Bandile Dlabantu) 3. Re: Jeepney? (Felipe Jocano) 4. Re: knife defense (Ken Glass) 5. Re: GrandMaster Tatang Ilustrisimo (Daniel Arola) 6. Awareness (iPat) 7. RE: Western Systems (Van Harn, Steve) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 00:06:48 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Jeepney? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Try to water down the concept of having "air marshalls" in planes to public land transportation such as trains and buses and you will have a better appreciation of what happened. BTW a "jeepney" is nothing more than a WWII jeep which was converted into a form of "mini-bus". Due to its unique 6 to 9 per side face-to-face sitting configuration, Philippine MA schools normally teach self-defense techniques unique for jeepney situations. > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 06 Aug 2006 12:38:26 +0100 > From: Ollie Batts > To: > Subject: [Eskrima] Jeepney? > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > The fact that it later turned out to be a known felon still begs the > question: 'Are people in some parts of the world allowed to act as Judge, > Jury and Executioner'? --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 07:05:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Bandile Dlabantu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Knife defence Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well, you shouldn't kick the knife. If you must kick, kick the arm or hand that is holding the knife. Or kick them in the privates. But don't kick the knife... True IMHO. My brother has wound in his calf from trying to kick a knife, he now teaches only low kicks and boxing. I looked at the DBMA pics , they really look cool and the kicking is there.Though I did not see anyone try to kick a knife, they seem to be attacking the knife wielder. Maybe in a video I would see better. Question: I have seen many demonstrations of someone kicking a knife away from a "sabre" grip. Would you try a kick against a knife in "Ice pick" grip? Bandile D. Admire only the diamond that can bear the hits of a hammer - Kabir --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 00:30:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Jeepney? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Ollie, and everyone else too :-) Firstly, a Philippine jeepney is a public utlity vehicle, i.e., a passenger vehicle. It grew out of the surplus US Army jeeps that were left here after World War II. Because of the devastation caused by the war, public transportation systems were naturally a mess, so what some enterprising souls did was to utilize the jeeps they somehow managed to acquire and turn them into passenger vehicles. Later versions of these jeepneys were modified by extending their chassis and adding padded seats to the interior and a hard roof. The current jeepney is capable of seating 18-20 people in the passenger area, all of whom face each other. The seat beside the driver in front can accomodate two more people. I think you can google the image of the jeepney. Jeepneys in the Metro Manila area travel designated routes, picking up and dropping off passengers along the way. Fares vary according to the distance traveled. The route described by bgdebuque is quite long, travel time estimated at around 45 minutes to an hour, allowing for all the traffic. And that's on a good day :-) Now, with regards to the legal matters under discussion: Caveat - I am not a lawyer, although at one time I did study law at the UP College of Law. Familiarity with the penal code ought to be part of the education of every martial artist, I think...:-) Firstly, we come from a different legal system as compared to yours and to the others on the list... Ours has been patterned after a combination of colonial Spanish and American legal systems. A key example is the law on killing another person. Philippine criminal law does not make the distinction between first, second and third degree murder or manslaughter etc found in American laws. I don't know what yours is like, so sorry I can't make the comparison :-(. The law distinguishes between unpremeditated killing - homicide - and premeditated killing - murder. That's it. There are other factors that may intervene in the circumstances of the killing, such as motive. If the motive is self-defense, then other factors come in, such as clear signs of danger, superiority of numbers, etc. It is indeed arguable that the shooting of the robbers in the jeepney was a case of self-defense and also of defense of others. The robbers had superiority of numbers, they were armed and there was a clear presence of danger to one's self and others in the circumstances of their shooting. Secondly, these are arguments from a legal point of view and as I said I'm not a lawyer. However, we move on to practical issues: Although the law is the law (dura lex sed lex - the law is hard but it is the law), in practical circumstances it would be hard to fault the man for acting as he did. Circumstances are such that robbery almost always is undertaken by groups: even the apparently solo robber has a backup watching the action nearby to cover him/her. Even for pickpockets...Why would he shoot robber #2 as he turned? Because he could also be preparing to get a gun of his own; and more importantly, whenever a holdup (that's what we call an armed robber here) takes place in a public vehicle, the chances are that the place along the route where the holdup takes place are where additional backup is waiting. Shooting robber # 2 nullifies the chances of his getting backup and of his getting another weapon out if he has one. >From the original story posted, the person shot was not another passserby but the second of the trio. Given the size of the jeep, it is relatively easy to pick out the robber from amongst the others. Given the time of night that it happened (and in our penal law, a robbery committed at night is a lot more serious than one in daytime), there were less chances of hitting anyone else. I seriously doubt whether this man acted as judge jury and executioner as you put it. He acted according to the best of his knowledge and capabilities in protecting himself and others on the spot. To act as judge jury and executioner implies the claim to a moral higher ground from which to carry out such acts, and the necessary planning thereof, which is not present in the story posted. LEOs acting as such and private hit squads are another matter entirely... Thirdly, I must take exception to the statement that life in the Philippines is somewhat less valuable generally than elsewhere. In the context of self defense and defense of others, there is indeed a more flexible use of the doctrine of self-defense - which I must add evolved according to the circumstances of recent Philippine history. Not everyone is willing to kill in self defense or in defense of others. Most are willing to use as much force (or other means) in order to get the robbers out. You must realize however that the flexibility of application of the doctrine of self defense in this context - if the robbers get away they will be back. The second time around, they will asaault your family as payback. Fourthly, were they shot because the shooter was a cowboy, i.e., a hothead, or were they shot because a gun was available? I tend to think it was the latter. A superior weapon trumps superior numbers, but only in the particular circumstances described. About weapons and shooting - at times, it is enough to pull out the gun and the other fellow backs off, but there are also circumstances in which the shooter will really have to use it. Fifthly, one of the other guys posted a question on how come three robbers for what would be apparently a small take. OK, look at it this way - 18-20 wallets. Rings, necklaces, bracelets, watches and earrings (if present). Cellphones - 18-20 cellphones assuming everyone has one, cellphones being common here. Assuming that the story took place in the era of the cellphone :-). Loot - assume every wallet has at least 200 and at most a thousand pesos. That's a low of 3600-4000 pesos and at most a high of 18-20,000 pesos. There are passengers who may be carrying more, so the value goes up. Jewelry can be fenced - and you won't beleive the speed at which loot ends up in the ahdns of fences. So sorry I'm not up to date on the current rates for fenced jewelry :-) and for those of you who plan to visit here, never accept an offer from someone on the street who walks up to you and offers a watch real cheap. Cellphones can be resold "secondhand" for a lower price depending on the make. The gang can stand to make up to 100,000 (or more) on the cellphones alone, if they have a good night. Assume that on a good night, they make 150,000 pesos total from everything. At the current exchange rate of 53 pesos (is that the correct rate now?) to the dollar, that something like US$2000++ for a night's work, divided among three people and maybe with the gang leader. And then they go out and do it again the next night. The economics of the situation are of course relative to the current economic conditions here. *whew* Bot --- Ollie Batts wrote: > I really only posted on this to play Devil's > Advocate, to an extent. > > The original story mentioned that it was dark. A > shot was fired in the dark > in the direction of someone apparently running away > from the Jeepney (what's > a Jeepney by the way?). The person running away > could have been anyone, such > as another passenger, or passer by, who was simply > fleeing from the gunfire. > The shot hit the person in the spine, so he clearly > was not turning to fire > his own weapon at that moment in time. > > The fact that it later turned out to be a known > felon still begs the > question: 'Are people in some parts of the world > allowed to act as Judge, > Jury and Executioner'? Capital punishment is > officially no longer allowed in > the UK, although fairly recent actions by certain > Police officers throw some > doubt in the direction of that statement. I'm pretty > sure that the Police > Officer truly believed he was dealing with a > terrorist when he fired several > shots into the head of a Brazilian student, whose > only crime it seems was > that he had overstayed his visa time limit. Even if > capital punishment was > allowed here, I would think that this country would > come in for some severe > criticism from other countries if we were to adopt > that kind of policy for > dealing with illegal immigrants, let alone those > overstaying their visas! > > By the sound of it, life in the Philippines is > somewhat less valuable > generally, and the law on self-defence seems to be > rather more 'flexible' > than we (legally) have available to us in the UK. > > Pugil > > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 00:41:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ken Glass To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: knife defense Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have never seen a knife fight, but I have seen a few real fights. When I was a TKD student, I also was a roofer, and my boss hung around biker bars. I was 17--I'm 44 now. My boss, could fight naturally--he was a product of the streets of New Orleans. He never had any "Martial Arts" training, and would make fun of my interest in training. I saw him beat a man to where his nose was no longer on his face--and some of the blood from this fight was on me. Basically, he could do what we train for all the time--but we train to be able to counter these natural fighters( okay, criminals)--he learned on the streets by doing it. I thought everyone knew the difference. I actually started training because I was not a natural fighter, and others in my group, who were, wanted to get better--a systematic education, as oposed to the street/prison system. We learn from experience. If you fight alot, and live--you will get better. But, this is not the way I wanted to learn. It has to do with fear/overcoming fear more than anything. Ken Glass "don't hate the oilfield workers--we have to pay the same price for gas!" --------------------------------- See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 02:20:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GrandMaster Tatang Ilustrisimo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here's a link for you Guro James. 'Just thought I'd share. http://fma.rtrinidad.com/files/lionheart-ilustrisimo.wmv Enjoy! Daniel Arola DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DAMAG_Kali_Stickfighting http://www.myspace.com/DanielArola __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 11:38:41 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Awareness Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://www.psfights.com/details.php?image_id=596 So guys, how would we deal with this? Awareness would have alerted the victim to the potential threat. Simple eye contact could have let the assailant know he was aware of his presence. Look at the way the assailant shifts his bodyweight to initiate the attack. By not turning his back he could have seen that movement and be in a better position to avoid the attack. By choosing the till closer to a wall he could reduce the avenues of attack to increase his ability to stay alert. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2006 07:30:19 -0500 From: "Van Harn, Steve" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Western Systems Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Steve Ames Wrote: "I just returned from 4 days of sword swinging goodness up in Lansing, MI where the 7th International Swordfighting and Martial Arts Convention (ISMAC: http://artofcombat.org/public/thespis/convention/aocflyer.htm) was held. Great time. I saw a demo of "single stick" this weekend. Not what I was expecting at all :)" Steve, can you elaborate here or offline about the "single stick"? I was contemplating watching/entering the Single stick tourney myself just for grins, giggles and discovery (no disrespect, more to laugh at myself). Steve --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest