Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:45:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #256 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Barrio Fiesta (Eskrima-FMA) 2. Re: East meets West sword matches thoughts from a Camp Fire Discussion on European Martial arts (Steve Ames) 3. Re: East meets West sword matches thoughts from a Camp Fire Discussion on European Martial arts (John Johnson) 4. East meets West (Michael Koblic) 5. Re: East meets West (Jonathan Kessler) 6. East meets West: Never the twain shall meet! (1@msfencing.org) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 05:59:59 -0700 From: Eskrima-FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Barrio Fiesta Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Barrio Fiesta salutes Filipino revival downtown Stockton, CA Anna Kaplan Thursday, Aug 10, 2006 The Filipino Plaza is a testament to the persistence of Stockton's Filipino community, and this weekend's 34th annual Barrio Fiesta will celebrate more than three decades of downtown revival. The event will take place at the plaza Saturday and Sunday, and will feature Filipino food and entertainment ranging from dancing to martial arts. "The plaza symbolizes the rejuvenation of a culture that was dismantled and is now able to reunite," said Tony Somera, the grand master of the Bahala Na Escrima martial arts academy, whose students will demonstrate 20 styles of escrima Saturday. Escrima is a traditional Filipino martial art where opponents fight each other with sticks. The plaza building is one of the last remnants of the once-vibrant Little Manila neighborhood, a section of downtown that was heavily populated by Filipino people in the early 20th century. Many of the buildings were torn down when the crosstown freeway was built. In 1972, a group of community organizations won a Housing and Urban Development loan to renovate the formerly blighted plaza building. It now houses more than 200 people. Barrio Fiesta commemorates the completion of the renovation on the second weekend of August. "It's the dream come true for the Filipino-American community of Stockton," said Bernie Giva from the Associated Filipino Organizations, the event's organizer. Contact reporter Anna Kaplan at (209) 546-8294 or akaplan@recordnet.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Steve Ames" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East meets West sword matches thoughts from a Camp Fire Discussion on European Martial arts Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Interesting reads. That 2nd link devolved into a block with flat -vs block with edge debate which was also fairly interesting and unfortunately still seems to be going on (4 years later). Nice. John Johnson wrote: > Here are a couple of links that might help end the legend of one > sword being superior to the other. Each sword had or has it's > intended purpose and for that each was good for what it was/is made > for. As far as superior materials or craftsmanship well, just check > out the links > > http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001557.html > > http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001502.html > > > > > > > > Peace Out > John > > > > > >> From: "Steve Ames" >> Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> To: >> Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East meets West sword matches thoughts from a >> Camp Fire Discussion on European Martial arts >> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:07:43 -0400 >> >> Additionally I'd like to address: >> >> "Leaving aside for the moment the question of the quality of the >> respective weapons (the Japanese sword being widely regarded as the >> standard by which others are judged)" >> >> widely regarded != correctly regarded. There was recently a very >> large discussion on SwordForum about why the Katana is regarded as >> such powerful weapon. >> >> http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36755 >> >> There is little question that most japanese swords are prettier but >> I think they are also "imbued by such mystique and are considered by >> many to be superior to the European". Hate to perpetuate such >> beliefs by letting them go unchallenged. >> >> -Steve >> >> Jonathan Kessler wrote: >>> Umm... >>> With Lapu Lapu and Magellan, the disparity in numbers is generally >>> considered more of a deciding factor in that conflict than either >>> sides particular martial skills. Though Magellan did a few bonehead >>> things (as judged by his own martial systems and traditions). >>> >>> There is a tendency in many cultures to embrace what is new and >>> different, and to disdain their own traditions (some cultures have >>> the opposite tendency, and reject what is foreign and rigidly cling >>> to what is theirs). >>> >>> Back in the late 1960's, oriental fighting arts seemed mystical >>> and secret and vastly superior to our own (we didn't really think >>> we had any). Any oriental was seen as likely to be a walking >>> stick of dynamite. I remember an older, wiser friend telling me >>> that boxing was an effective martial art, and that a good boxer >>> could hold his own against a karateka. I did not believe him. Yet >>> we have seen today that "boxing and wrestling" combine very >>> effectively against "karate and judo" or "muay thai and BJJ". By >>> the same token, look at the huge bandwagon BJJ (new and different) >>> developed. And how that momentum has dropped now that it is no >>> longer so "new" and it's revealed as a very real system, with good >>> and bad points, like any others. (Well, except the one I study, >>> which is perfect and complete - joking there, kids). >>> >>> There are some interesting articles on this topic on the ARMA >>> (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts) website >>> http://www.thehaca.com/, including a couple of well thought out >>> discussions of the medieval European knight vs. the feudal Japanese >>> samurai. >>> >>> JK >>> >>> "Lawrence, Marc J." wrote: >>> To all, >>> I got to thinking about Michaels comments on Japanese Martial arts >>> verses European Martial Arts. >>> "Thus I find it somewhat puzzling that the Japanese arts are imbued >>> by such mystique and are considered by many to be superior to the >>> European >>> styles of fighting. >>> Leaving aside for the moment the question of the quality of the >>> respective weapons (the Japanese sword being widely regarded as the >>> standard by which others are judged) I cannot help but wonder: Is >>> Japanese swordsmanship truly superior to, say, Hungarian school of >>> saber? Has this ever been tested in real life?" >>> Michael Koblic, >>> Campbell River, BC >>> This is what I remembered from reading History and I look back up. >>> Remembering that both sides were battle harden veterans. >>>> From Wikipedia: >>> On the morning of April 27 , 1521 , >>> Lapu-Lapu and the men of Mactan, armed with spears and kampilan >>> , faced 49 Spanish soldiers led by >>> Portuguese captain Ferdinand Magellan . In >>> what would later be known as the Battle of Mactan >>> , Magellan and several of his men were killed. >>> This tells me that Lapu-Lapu's Filipino martial arts were better >>> than Ferdinand's European Martial arts. >>> Marc Lawrence >>> South Bay >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members >>> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>> Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>> Standard disclaimers apply >>> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members >>> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>> Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>> Standard disclaimers apply >>> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >> _______________________________________________ >> Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "John Johnson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East meets West sword matches thoughts from a Camp Fire Discussion on European Martial arts Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:32:59 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Yeah, unfortunately that is a debate that will continue for years to come I'm afraid...at this point there is not a definitive answer, at least from my understanding from research and the netsword forums. Peace Out John >From: "Steve Ames" >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East meets West sword matches thoughts from a Camp >Fire Discussion on European Martial arts >Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:00:34 -0400 > >Interesting reads. That 2nd link devolved into a block with flat -vs block >with edge debate which was also fairly interesting and unfortunately still >seems to be going on (4 years later). Nice. > >John Johnson wrote: > > Here are a couple of links that might help end the legend of one > > sword being superior to the other. Each sword had or has it's > > intended purpose and for that each was good for what it was/is made > > for. As far as superior materials or craftsmanship well, just check > > out the links > > > > http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001557.html > > > > http://netsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001502.html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Peace Out > > John > > > > > > > > > > > >> From: "Steve Ames" > >> Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >> To: > >> Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East meets West sword matches thoughts from a > >> Camp Fire Discussion on European Martial arts > >> Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2006 12:07:43 -0400 > >> > >> Additionally I'd like to address: > >> > >> "Leaving aside for the moment the question of the quality of the > >> respective weapons (the Japanese sword being widely regarded as the > >> standard by which others are judged)" > >> > >> widely regarded != correctly regarded. There was recently a very > >> large discussion on SwordForum about why the Katana is regarded as > >> such powerful weapon. > >> > >> http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36755 > >> > >> There is little question that most japanese swords are prettier but > >> I think they are also "imbued by such mystique and are considered by > >> many to be superior to the European". Hate to perpetuate such > >> beliefs by letting them go unchallenged. > >> > >> -Steve > >> > >> Jonathan Kessler wrote: > >>> Umm... > >>> With Lapu Lapu and Magellan, the disparity in numbers is generally > >>> considered more of a deciding factor in that conflict than either > >>> sides particular martial skills. Though Magellan did a few bonehead > >>> things (as judged by his own martial systems and traditions). > >>> > >>> There is a tendency in many cultures to embrace what is new and > >>> different, and to disdain their own traditions (some cultures have > >>> the opposite tendency, and reject what is foreign and rigidly cling > >>> to what is theirs). > >>> > >>> Back in the late 1960's, oriental fighting arts seemed mystical > >>> and secret and vastly superior to our own (we didn't really think > >>> we had any). Any oriental was seen as likely to be a walking > >>> stick of dynamite. I remember an older, wiser friend telling me > >>> that boxing was an effective martial art, and that a good boxer > >>> could hold his own against a karateka. I did not believe him. Yet > >>> we have seen today that "boxing and wrestling" combine very > >>> effectively against "karate and judo" or "muay thai and BJJ". By > >>> the same token, look at the huge bandwagon BJJ (new and different) > >>> developed. And how that momentum has dropped now that it is no > >>> longer so "new" and it's revealed as a very real system, with good > >>> and bad points, like any others. (Well, except the one I study, > >>> which is perfect and complete - joking there, kids). > >>> > >>> There are some interesting articles on this topic on the ARMA > >>> (Association for Renaissance Martial Arts) website > >>> http://www.thehaca.com/, including a couple of well thought out > >>> discussions of the medieval European knight vs. the feudal Japanese > >>> samurai. > >>> > >>> JK > >>> > >>> "Lawrence, Marc J." wrote: > >>> To all, > >>> I got to thinking about Michaels comments on Japanese Martial arts > >>> verses European Martial Arts. > >>> "Thus I find it somewhat puzzling that the Japanese arts are imbued > >>> by such mystique and are considered by many to be superior to the > >>> European > >>> styles of fighting. > >>> Leaving aside for the moment the question of the quality of the > >>> respective weapons (the Japanese sword being widely regarded as the > >>> standard by which others are judged) I cannot help but wonder: Is > >>> Japanese swordsmanship truly superior to, say, Hungarian school of > >>> saber? Has this ever been tested in real life?" > >>> Michael Koblic, > >>> Campbell River, BC > >>> This is what I remembered from reading History and I look back up. > >>> Remembering that both sides were battle harden veterans. > >>>> From Wikipedia: > >>> On the morning of April 27 , 1521 , > >>> Lapu-Lapu and the men of Mactan, armed with spears and kampilan > >>> , faced 49 Spanish soldiers led by > >>> Portuguese captain Ferdinand Magellan . In > >>> what would later be known as the Battle of Mactan > >>> , Magellan and several of his men were killed. > >>> This tells me that Lapu-Lapu's Filipino martial arts were better > >>> than Ferdinand's European Martial arts. > >>> Marc Lawrence > >>> South Bay > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > >>> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >>> Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >>> Standard disclaimers apply > >>> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > >>> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >>> Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >>> Standard disclaimers apply > >>> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >> Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > >> Standard disclaimers apply > >> http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:27:13 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] East meets West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rez wrote: "I would think a German Longsword could easily break a katana in half." So could a 10-cent iron bar. Is that really a good criterion to compare weapon quality? Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:49:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East meets West To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There's a wonderful East meets West story on almost this very topic. Back in the Third Crusade, Richard the Lionheartand and his opponent Salahedin (better known in the west as Saladin) met to parley. In time honored fashion, Richard sought to make his foe think better of doing battle with his armoured knights. Richard took an iron mace, lay it between two tables, drew his sword, and cut the iron mace in half. Salaheddin said nothing, but drew his shamshir and held it edge up, took out a silk hankerchief, threw it up into the air, and watched as the fine silk floated down and sliced itself cleanly in two on the Damascus blade. Ah, those were the days. JK Michael Koblic wrote: Rez wrote: "I would think a German Longsword could easily break a katana in half." So could a 10-cent iron bar. Is that really a good criterion to compare weapon quality? Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 6 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:35:09 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Subject: [Eskrima] East meets West: Never the twain shall meet! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Rez wrote: > "I would think a German Longsword could easily break a katana in half." > Michael wrote; > So could a 10-cent iron bar. Is that really a good criterion to compare > weapon quality? Weapon strength is a very important criterion in determining quality and usefulness on the battlefield. It's awfully embarrassing to get your sword broke in a battle, not to mention dangerous. Which would YOU rather be holding in a battle, the broken katana or the German Longsword which just broke through it and your head? Blessings, Rez "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org / Mississippi Academy of Arms *//////{<>===========================- \ Virtute et Armis Teaching Fencing in Central Mississippi since 1980 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest