Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:13:46 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #259 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: East meets West (Jonathan Kessler) 2. RE: East meetsWwest (1@msfencing.org) 3. RE: East meets West: Never the twain shall meet! (1@msfencing.org) 4. Re: instruction in L.A. (Patrick Pace) 5. Re: East Meets West (Afern27@aol.com) 6. East meets West: Never the twain shall meet! (Marc MacYoung) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:47:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] East meets West To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This thread is near the dim-mak death touch of dead-horse thread-dom, but that won't stop me from making one last longish post. Neither a longsword nor a katana nor a shamshir would shear through plate armor. All would be reaonably effective against chainmail, which is largely what Richard's crusaders wore. Full metal plate armor was a later development. It's popularity led to the demise of the European sword as a cutting weapon, with two consequences: 1. The increasing use of the warhammer, mace, and battleaxe by knights against other armored knights; 2. The evolution of swords as better suited for thrusting than previously. Look at 15th century European swords as compared to 12th century swords, and you will see a huge difference. To defeat plate armor with a blade, one needed to thrust through the chinks in the armor, rather than try to hew through the plate. If you read accounts of those times, you'll read many examples of this. Base of the neck and the armpit were two favored, "chink in armor" targets. Early example of the arms race - better defenses leading to evolution in weapons to beat those defenses. I'm also interested in how easily people on the list are accepting that a German longsword could break a katana. I don't agree. I don't disagree, either. I've seen and worked with originals of both (though sadly not really great original katanas... sigh). A katana could also break a German longsword. It hugely depends on, among many other things: The type of sword (By "German Longsword, do we mean a schwiehander? a grosse messer? a bastard sword? or ????); The original quality of the sword; The current condition of the sword (metal fatigues, folks, and swords did feel the effects of repeated use); The skill of the wielder; About a dozen variables of the actual strike/encounter (what point on each sword is making contact, the velocity of each sword, angle of the strike, angle of each blade, etc.) A German Longsword COULD cut a Katana in half. A Katana COULD cut a German Longsword in half. Neither one is guaranteed to do so. So getting back to Pugil's question, yes, Salaheddin's sword (and his troops' swords) would be, and were proved to be, extremely effective against the mail-armored crusaders. Very different battle tactics for each side, but that's a whole 'nother topic. And both sides also used impact weapons - maces, hammers, and the like, which were equally devastating weapons against armored and unarmored opponents. end of rant... JK Ollie Batts wrote: Yes, but would Saladin's blade have made any impression on Richard's armour? The individual weapons were designed, originally, each with a different job to do - along the way to the ultimate goal of destroying ones opponent. Pugil --__--__-- Message: 2 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] East meetsWwest Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:52:50 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Rez wrote: > "Weapon strength is a very important criterion in determining quality and > usefulness on the battlefield. It's awfully embarrassing to get your sword > broke in a battle, not to mention dangerous. > > Which would YOU rather be holding in a battle, the broken katana or the > German Longsword which just broke through it and your head?" >Michael wrote: > A valid point. > My personal experience with big edged weapons could be written on a rice > grain with frosting. Which is why I prefer to... leave this question aside I spoke from my own experiences with both katana and longsword as a teacher of classical fencing and historical swordsmanship for over 26 years. Grace & Peace, Rez "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org / Mississippi Academy of Arms *//////{<>===========================- \ Virtute et Armis Teaching Fencing in Central Mississippi since 1980 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: <1@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] East meets West: Never the twain shall meet! Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:15:51 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Myron wrote: > Strength is not the only criteria for a weapon, each sword type has its intended purpose. Exactly! Weight, blade length, blade width, overall length, edge shape, degree of sharpness, type of point, balance point, grip length, curvature of blade, type of metal... all effect the method in which the sword may best be used as well as its effectiveness against other weapons. > First of all the assumption that the longsword could break a katana is just that, an > assumption. Everything is an assumption until it happens, but we can infer truth from common sense and from experience. From my own experience with both weapons I know that a longsword can break a katana if properly used by an experience swordsman. When you are experienced enough with both weapons and have pitted one against the other in combat you will know the truth yourself. > Given that katanas a lot lighter than the longsword so while your raising your longsword > overhead, the guy with the samurai is slicing your belly open... And because katanas are lighter than longswords, I have never been foolish enough to let an opponent wielding a katana get that close. And I have never had to let one get close enough to reach me because my longswords length and striking range are much longer than that of the katana. I always stay out of the katana's shorter striking distance and force my opponent to come to me. While maintaining longsword distance I time my attack to cut his weapon wrist/arm as he arrives in my longsword striking distance. He falls short and I connect. This use of distance has never failed me when I have tested the longsword against the katana (and the shinai) in my salle. The katanas structural weakness lies in its weaker blade which can easily be broken by a longsword. More importantly, the katanas tactical weakness against longsword lies in its shorter length which forces its wielder to advance dangerously close to make an attack. The samurai can be hit with a "stop cut" long before he is close enough to hit his opponent. The longswords strength lies in the fact that it can strike while the katana is still out of distance. Additionally, forcing the samurai to constantly gain and break ground can also quickly wear down his endurance. The important thing to know is that each sword has its own intrinsic properties which effect the strategy, tactics, techniques, timing, distance, and tempo of the weapon. Each sword has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. Only after mastering several different swords does one truly know how to form an effective strategy with incisive tactics and the proper use of distance, timing and tempo for effectively pitting one type of sword against another. Blessings, Rez "Standing guard on old, forgotten roads, that no one travels anymore." The Fencing Master, by Arturo Perez Rez Johnson, M d'A Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms President: United States Traditional Fencing Association Certified Fencing Instructor: (USTFA, TFI, AAI, USFCA) Certified Fencing Master Apprentice: (USTFA, USFCA) Teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Swordsmanship since 1980 Modern Sport Fencing Coach from 1980 - 2002 Teaching cane fighting in Mississippi since 1999 Authorized Goju-Shorei Weapons System Instructor since 2004 Mississippi Academy of Arms P.O. Box 955 Pelahatchie, MS 39145-0955 E-Mail: 1@MSFencing.org Academy Website: http://MSFencing.org USTFA Website: http://TraditionalFencing.org / Mississippi Academy of Arms *//////{<>===========================- \ Virtute et Armis Teaching Fencing in Central Mississippi since 1980 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:53:07 -0700 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] instruction in L.A. From: Patrick Pace To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You could try the Magda Institute in Reseda... patrick On Thursday, August 10, 2006, at 11:27 PM, michael schoenfeld wrote: > Hi > I'm thinking of getting involved with FMA.I live near Hollywood Ca. > am looking for classes.I'm over 40 and taking a weapons based art > seems to make sense as long as the empty hands aspects are there.i > tend bar and owners tend to frown on you stabbing the customer,plus > its bad for tips.If you can point me in the direction of some good > instruction in the area or a list of instuuctors that up to date,i'd > be grateful.I don't know much about eskrima so any help is needed.I > found a. school nearby Manaois systems....GM Conrad Manaois.....Anyone > have any info? > thanks. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2300 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 16:15:04 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: East Meets West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It's been interesting to witness the emerging Western martial arts movement, and to see some of those traditions revived. In that time Western arts have gone from being an all but extinct entity, to now having some of it's reenactors/recreators proclaiming it's superiorority to other styles. Maybe based on fact, or maybe just based on cultural pride (most proponents being of European descent.) I don't know about them being necessarily better than anything else, but surely the original arts were effective at what they were designed for. It will be fun to see WMAists start entering Dog Brother-style contests, just to get a more accurate feel for what they have to offer. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:10:30 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] East meets West: Never the twain shall meet! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Myron said > Strength is not the only criteria for a weapon, each sword type has its > intended purpose. First of all the assumption that the longsword could > >break a katana is just that, an assumption. In a real fight would you > hold the kantana in a way that would let the heavier sword break it in > half or >would you be using ranging and your speed to avoid or deflect? > Given that katanas a lot lighter than the longsword so while your raising > your >longsword overhead, the guy with the samurai is slicing your belly > open... My 2 cents. I've been trying to keep out of this discussion because it is such a hot topic on so many other forums. The fact is there are not only other criteria for weapons, but other factors as well...such as the defensive equipment that was used in tandem with the blade type, battlefield vs. personal use, the availability of iron and the weather to name a few. I've had the Katana vs. Western sword conversation on many occasions and it usually boils down to a question "with or without other equipment?" That simple question takes the argument of "which works better" and shifts it solidly and firmly into the "It depends" Yes, the battlefield western swords tend to be heavier and slower. So the idea of nipping in and slicing the Western practitioner open, in an unarmoured, one-on-one duel and using the lighter faster katana, is plausible. The speed and subtly of the Eastern weapon against unarmoured flesh and facing a heavier battlefield weapon is superior. (Until you get into Edo period katana vs. rapier, which is an entirely different issue because both are lighter personal weapons) Contrawise -- and I say this despite having come from a katana class by a hellaciously skilled swordsman two weeks ago -- the Japanese katana was NOT designed to work against full Western plate armour... and is in fact, utterly ineffective against it. Instead of gutting your opponent, the best you're going to do is to score his armour before he chops you in half. I have actually seen a kenjitsu player go up against a sword and shield combo and the Eastern player walked away with a whole new respect for people who have enough common sense to carry extra equipment into a sword fight. Except in later dueling situations, the Western sword alone wasn't used if you could at all help it -- you backed it up with other equipment. Equipment that complicated the whole affair. Also remember that the entire longsword was a weapon, the pommel was a mace, the guard was a gaff, and the entire thing could be used as a jo...so closing the distance ain't necessarily a guaranteed strategy. I once ended up facing a swordsman with a broken off bastardsword hilt. I caught his blade, disarmed him, kicked him in the balls and threw him over a table. Although the idea of the Western battleswords being little more than clubs has become "internet wisdom" they were incredibly complex weapons. And yes, they could withstand these multi-use applications. Which begs the question of superior craftsmanship of a specific tool vs. an all-around better tool, albeit of inferior craftsmanship. Furthermore, let us not forget that the longsword was a battlefield weapon. That is to say that it was NOT commonly used in personal duels. In fact, the tactics of the Renaissance battlefield would have made it rather difficult for that quick zip up and slice him open during his wind up because of the two pikemen standing behind the longswordsman who'd shish kebob you if you tried. (see the last paragraph) Now add to this that although the extra weight of the armour -- remember that stuff? The stuff that the katana isn't going to be able to cut through?-- did slow the Western man-at-arms down, he was not entirely a sluggish robot/zombie. You are NOT slicing into someone who is conveniently standing still for you rooted to the spot as he tries to muscle a lead weight. Bodymovement, momentum, footwork and acceleration played as big of a part in Western swordsmanship as it did in any other blade art...including FMA. Do not for a second believe that understanding these elements and others (e.g. angles) is proprietary to Eastern arts alone. When you are talking about different blades meeting it is AS much a matter of personal skill of the player as equipment. It is also equally important whether or not the person holding each blade is trained in a McDojo version of his respective art or in a system that still retains the functional components that have been lost from the McDojo's version. And yes, bad instruction in a flawed styles happens just as much in Western arts as it does in Eastern. Would a Western long sword cut through a Katana? Again, it depends. Eastern arts largely depend on moving and deflecting in certain ways against certain types of attacks. While Western arts also use movement and deflection -- despite what the ARMA people say -- blocking was very much a component of Western swordsmanship. But it wasn't the stand there rooted and meet the force head on that many people think it is. Yes a longsword CAN snap a katana, if it hits it right and the katana isn't moving. Difficult circumstances to create in a fight. Bottomline, any sword can be broken if struck right/wrong. But the fact is that the other factors involved are far more important than simple craftsmanship. It has been my experience that the physics are entirely different in fighting styles, as is the equipment and operant conditions, as such, which is the better blade/fighting style arguments that so infect the internet are pretty silly. It is not realistic to make a nod towards "differences" and then proceed to ignore them in arguing over which is a better weapon/style/etc. There is a series of books by Osprey Publishing. The series itself is called "Warrior" but each book studies a different time period/conflict in history. These books are non-fiction and are in fact, written by experts in that period and can be found in any large and complete hobby store. I highly recommend walking up to a rack of these books and flipping through the instead of looking them up on Amazon. They are kind of like the Cliff Notes version of the history of warfare. They are incredible in how much they cover in under 75 pages. I have in front of me their book on the Landsknecht Soldier (Land Knight) 1486-1560, on its cover is a painting of a clash of pike walls. Anyone who believes that they study a war based style should take a look at the picture and try to imagine how well their system would do under those conditions. M --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest