Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 02:59:40 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #312 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Sword Breaking (Marc MacYoung) 2. Free Training Clinic for FMA Tournament Judging & Refereeing this Saturday (Alex.France@kp.org) 3. HUGHES AND PENN (Gordon Walker) 4. boot knives (norm rayos) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 12:08:25 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] Sword Breaking Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Swords can break under the right conditions. ie I won't thrust my good > rapier > through a watermelon, since one of its sisters snapped while doing that. > > Thin thrusting swords penetrate an object much like an arrow, they have an > oscillation as they penetrate and this power plus rigidity can cause a > blade > to snap. However it would be difficult in a fight to do so with another > sword, although rare conditions could exist that would cause it to happen. > > I have also seen a couple of "full tang" swords wobble rot (flexion > deterioration) out at the rivets and the blade came off the handle. Not > all > swords should be full tang. Cheap is Cheap. > -Lance Actually I've had a few swords break while using them in fights. Usually, where the second (?) break occurred on the show down low near the hilt and as a stress fracture. These usually occurred when someone didn't get the angle of their block right and met the edge with their flat. Although I agree with their conclusion that you can't "cut a sword in two using another sword, I'm kind of metza-metza on how they did that experiment. First -- as a generalization -- Japanese swords are more full tanged than most Western sword types. That is to say width-wise the tang is usually not that much smaller than the blade itself as it goes into the handle. They taper down as they go. As such, the tang "size" among Japanese swords tends to be about how deep into the handle they go. I've seen some serious arguments over that issue, but in a field where they have a different name for the blade every two inches or so, that's to be expected (boy, do they have too much time on their hands). The width of the tang makes it harder to break these blades off at the hilt. In contrast to how Japanese swords are made, many Western swords have much narrower tangs as they go into the hilt. "Ah HA!" you might say "inferior design." No not necessarily. This creates a different balance and weight distribution. One far more suited to how Western swords are used. Yes, Western weapons tend to be heavier, however -- and this is a GROSS generalization -- they tend to get their speed from more of a slinging action. Again, gross generalization to show a concept, don't think of a bullwhip, think of a flail. You don't muscle these blades, you are steering the sword's momentum. The weight is out there, not near you. Or, necessarily, in your hand -- by this I mean normally the "weight" and balance point are somewhere out in front of the hilt. The reason knowing all of this is important is that Western swords unlike katanas are both designed for both offense and defense. They get their "strength," not from one perfect piece of expertly crafted steel, but rather a "construction" starting at the end of the edge. The shape of the metal as it goes into the hilt/crossguard, the hilt, handle and pommel all kind of create a ... how to describe this... a roof's A frame with shock absorbers. Incoming forces are "bled" into the entire structure of what most people think of as the "handle" (see what you learn when you hang out with both physicists and sword makers?) However, bad steel will snap. And even good steel, while flexible, will whip and snap like it did in the show. Cut no, snap yes. I've seen just as many broken Japanese swords as I have Western swords when physics become too much. What seems to differ the most is point of failure. Japanese and lighter Western swords seem to fail more often further out the blade, whereas heavier older blades tend to fail closer to the hilt or within the actual handle. Remember, that's a rule of thumb though, I've seen exceptions. That brings us to the subtle body use and accelerators that they used. Again as a gross generalization, Western blades tend to attack on the outbound, Eastern blades on the return trip. If you take an arch, think of most Western blades attacking before you get to the top. Whereas the katana does it's work after passing the top of the arch. In both cases it isn't just about generation of force, but other factors as well. The robot they created didn't have all the factors. First the Japanese blade is for cutting NOT hacking. Which is why, I almost get sick everytime I see a so-called "sword expert" try to hack with one. (BTW, was anyone else not impressed with the vertical ballistic gel cut?) Yes the body weight and movement is behind the cut, but it is the edge moving through the mass in a slicing manner that does the work. That is why the work is done "after" the top of the arch is passed. It is the withdrawing motion that draws the edge through the mass. The blade is not held "straight out" to get this cutting effect. It's a complex set of angulations and drawing motions to get maximum cutting using that shape of blade. In general, I don't think a robot could do it, in specific, I know that robot wasn't doing it. What that robot was doing was a hack. In addition, it created a swinging curve -- like a baseball bat swing. As such, I'm not sure they were putting the target blades in the right place. This is especially true in the straight blade vs. curved blade calculations. My other problem was that they were using the Western swords like baseball bats in the hands of a kid in Little League (children's baseball league for those out of the US). Western swords tend to be used more in a lopping manner. That is to say you have an acceleration arc inside the larger arc. The wrists are very important within Western swordsmanship for both the generation and receiving of force. (This is where John Clements is conceptually VERY correct, but as an absolute, wrong). The sword is not a static club, nor is it a baseball bat in the hands of an amateur. In this case you would have to build a robot capable of generating not just a swing, but a lopping action within the swing and time it so they both arrived at once. And just before the top of the arch. So now you have extra acceleration of the mass and arguably different directional forces as well. You'd have to ask a physicist to see how close this extra movement using a straight blade comes to generating a cutting movement that a curved blade creates. Or if it creates an entirely different set of physics that gets you to the same place via different means. I do agree with Lance's final statement though "cheap is cheap" I've seen any number of swords break and there is no way of predicting exactly where they will snap off. M --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, escrima_arnis@topica.com From: Alex.France@kp.org Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 14:30:24 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Free Training Clinic for FMA Tournament Judging & Refereeing this Saturday Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (This notice is being sent to two on-line FMA digests as well as to (mostly San Francisco based) FMA practitioners via Blind cc.) What: Free Training Clinic for FMA Tournament Judging & Refereeing (and Competition --Fighters participating in the "mock" matches will be coached and offered tips by the more experienced competitors) When: Saturday, September 30, 2006 9 AM to whenever Where: Pamana ng Mandirgma (Warrior's Legacy), 4460 Hacienda Drive, Pleasanton CA 94588 Contact: Alex France, (925) 864-7477 Forwarding message from PG Darren Tibon:: >> We have made much progress towards the foundation of the referee/jugding criteria in the last six referee clinics. During our last clinic in Stockton, we had those who were seriously interested in the referee committee to sign an application form we have approximately 20 people who are interested so far from Stockton and Sacramento areas a few from the bay area who tolerated the traffic to get there that day. I know there are many, many more in the bay area and surrounding areas who could not make the last clinic. For those who are out of state, we will have a tape which will go with the rules and regulations manuel available when we are completed. Our next referee clinic will be hosted by Alex France in Pleasanton. Saturday, September 30th @ 9:00 a.m. We will have application forms there for those who are committed to this federation. All are welcome to join. It's never too late. Hope to see you there! Darren G. Tibon President, USFMAF Darlene J. Tibon Secretary, USFMAF << --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2006 18:14:09 -0600 From: "Gordon Walker" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] HUGHES AND PENN Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I have to say that the hughes penn match was frustrating and a bit revealing. Revealing in regards to opinions on conditioning and that attribute's effect on the "opinion" of a fighters skill level. Personally, I felt that Penn was the better fighter. The first two rounds...basically Penn schooled Hughes and eliminated the biggest part of his game. The third round just makes me wince in agony. An exhausted Penn throwing limp punches. He was basically mat fodder. I have great respect for BJ Penn regarding his skill level in all ranges. I also have great respect for Hughes and his excellent conditioning, but the skill level I found a bit wanting, in comparison to BJ. I guess, when it comes to a timed event with rules, the fighter that can last will win. But.. would the better fighter win if there wasnt a time limit?? Penn had hughes in a bad situation in the ending of the last two rounds. If there wasnt a time limit, would hughes have lost? Conjecture. Gumagalang, Gordon Walker --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "norm rayos" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 02:22:42 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] boot knives Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I was thinking of getting a boot knife...What do you guys think of the Camillus boot knife? Can anyone recommend any others under $30.00? Norm _________________________________________________________________ Search—Your way, your world, right now! http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/searchlaunch/?locale=en-us&FORM=WLMTAG --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest