Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:17:18 -0800 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 13 #385 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2300 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fathers (jay de leon) 2. Re: Fathers (iPat) 3. Re: GM Cabales and the Serrada lineage (Kes41355@aol.com) 4. Aaron Banks, Madison Square Garden, and Remy Presas (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Gratitude, Dan Inosanto and Remy Presas (Pananandta@aol.com) 6. Re: Fathers (Ray) 7. Stockton's FMA History (Terrence David Reyes) 8. Re: Stockton's FMA History (Ray) 9. Re: Stockton's FMA History (Doug Robertson) 10. Re: Fathers and Mothers (Djinji Brown) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2006 21:31:42 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fathers To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray, I think it is safe to assume you were referring to me with that oblique compliment about taking the safest approach. I will take it as a compliment, thank you. Just one slight clarification. I was not really trying to identify or nominate a "Father(s) of Eskrima in the US," but simply identifying individuals and groups that contributed to the spread of FMA in the US. I included non- Filipinos (like the Dog Brothers) as well as dozens (hundreds?) of garage dojo owners, no masters by any stretch of the imagination and will not probably qualify for the title in question. I can probably safely say though that, using any criteria, your elected "Father of Eskrima of the USA" was included in my article. Which brings me to my contribution to this whole discussion. Before you can agree on who that person(s) is, what you have to agree on are the criteria that makes him worthy of the title--first to teach, taught the most number of students, produced the most number of master or guros, wrote the most books and press releases, promoted the most number of tournaments and conducted the most number of seminars, had the largest sphere of influence in all the US states, logged the most number of miles teaching FMA, etc., etc. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Ray wrote: Jay may have taken the safest approach by identifying several dozen :) people as the Fathers of Eskrima in the US. In fact there were so many active behind the scenes... People like Max Sarmiento that helped with the creation of the first open FMA school in the US (or at least the mainland). And Johnny Lacoste... When Max asked for permission to openly teach the FMAs, Johnny gave that permission and recommended Angel to be the instructor. Johnny was the head of the Stockton Filipino community, the largest Filipino community in the world outside the of RP, and Max needed/wanted his approval to openly teach the FMAs. And Al Concepcion who, as I mentioned a couple days ago, was the first to sponsor many FMA masters on trips to visit and share their art in the US. This worked great until he brought in one particular instructor from the RP that overstayed his visa and then disappeared. This instructor reappeared later, but by that time Al was no longer permitted by the government to sponsor any more instructors into the US. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:07:11 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fathers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net what year was that? In books about Stockton you see what is groups of men who obviously trained. So are we discounting them as they were 'closed'? On 12/19/06, Ray wrote: > Jay may have taken the safest approach by identifying several dozen :) > people as the Fathers of Eskrima in the US. In fact there were so many > active behind the scenes... > > People like Max Sarmiento that helped with the creation of the first open > FMA school in the US (or at least the mainland). And Johnny Lacoste... -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 08:17:36 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: GM Cabales and the Serrada lineage Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I have to second Rocky here, even though I am a long time Serrada player, when I began training some 29 years ago, I had a choice between three different Filipino systems, and I chose Serrada because I believed it to be the most effective. I also over the years have had the opportunity to train with some of Angel Cabales students, and many of Mike Inay's students, and found them to be all top shelf fighters and teachers. I have stayed a Serrada player for nearly thirty years, and have never regretted my choice. Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima In a message dated 12/20/2006 6:51:25 AM US Eastern Standard Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: On another note concerning GGM Cabalis, even though I never trained with him, what I respect most about him is he never watered it down, the caliber of his students is TOP SHELF!!! Truely a Phenominal man, and those of you who were lucky enough to train with him, should thank God you got that opportunity!! Rocky --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:49:15 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Aaron Banks, Madison Square Garden, and Remy Presas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Aaron Banks was a big promoter of the martial arts. Most of his events were held at the Madison Square Garden. He is a friend of the FMA. He is a gentleman. I did a demonstration for him at the Nassau Coliseum in Long Island where professional hockey is also being held. But before that I was introduced to him by Arthur Cohen (5th degree black belt Taekwondo, Massapequa, Long Island) who was my student at the time in a meeting held for those who were to do demonstrations at his event. While I considered it a privelege doing demonstrations for such a big crowd, it is nothing exceptional. It was to me just like any demonstration that I had done. I would do the same thing whether the audience is composed of a few persons or a large crowd. Indeed, I did not even write a press release to the US-based Filipino newspapers I had mentioned in an earlier email to ED. Amante P. Marinas Sr. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:09:58 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gratitude, Dan Inosanto and Remy Presas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In the Filipino culture there is a saying that, "Do not expect a show of gratitude from those whom you have done favors. You are going to be disappointed. However, other people will do you favors and - favors given and received eventually will even out." Back in the late 1970's, Bo Sayoc (father of Chris Sayoc of Sayoc Kali, probably about 14 at the time) invited pikiti tirsia founder Leo Gaje Jr., Professor Florendo Visitacion, Remy Presas, and myself for dinner and for some FMA discussions to his house in Queens, New York. Roland Dantes came with Remy Presas. Back in 1973, Leo and myself aggressively promoted the FMA through US-based Filipino newspapers and magazine. A couple of this newspapers were also circulated in the Philippines. Hence, the efforts that Leo and I were putting into the promotion of the FMA did not go unnotice. One of these newspapers favored Marcos; one other was against him. Hence, the Marcos government was watching. Presas did not thank us for what Leo and I had done two years before Presas started teaching in the US. Leo and I never did expect him to. Leo's efforts and mine helped generate interest in the FMA both in the US and in the Philippines. Therefore, we did Presas a favor. Instead of a show of gratitude, there occurred a running feud between Leo and Presas in the pages of Official Karate (now no longer published). Eventually, their students got into the exchange of letters in the magazine. I did not know what started it all. Leo and myself were very close. Still, I did not get involved. For all I know, the feud could have started back in the "Old Country" in the Philippines. From the tone and contents of the letters coming from both sides, I had to assume that they hated each other. Despite this, however, the two have something in common. They were both pro-Marcos. Their political affiliation is relevant because it is written that Remy Presas was sent to the US by the Philippine dictatorship at the time to promote the FMA. I met Remy Presas only once. I met Dan Inosanto only once. Dan gave me a copy of his book when I met him. Those whom Dan acknowledged in his book had direct physical, cultural, and mental influence on his FMA training. Presas didn't. I would take this as the reason why Dan did not acknowledge Presas in his book. Amante P. Marinas Sr. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fathers To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 09:54:40 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > what year was that? When Angel began to openly teach? 1965. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 12:06:41 -0800 From: "Terrence David Reyes" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Stockton's FMA History Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Message: 4 > From: Ray > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) ). And Johnny Lacoste... Johnny was the > head of the Stockton Filipino community, the largest Filipino community in > the world outside the of RP, > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com Hi Ray, Would be so kind as to elaborate on this? My family is amongst the early Filipino settlement in Stockton circa 1930 and never did Manong Johnny Lacoste carry the distinction of "head of the Stockton Filipino Community. " If anything in the early days as such, it was a collaborative effort among the first five settleing families. Perhaps he was the head of his particular clan or group, but never did a "single" individual "Head" the Stockton Filipino Community. If by you mean head of the Filipino Community of Stockton and Vicinity Building, that distinction then belonged to Manong Johnny Latosa. Thank you Ray for any clarification you might offer. Happy Holidays to you and yours. Best Regards, David Reyes --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stockton's FMA History To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:28:12 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Would be so kind as to elaborate on this? My family is amongst the early > Filipino settlement in Stockton circa 1930 and never did Manong Johnny Lacoste > carry the distinction of "head of the Stockton Filipino Community. " That story comes down from Max and Angel, so it was probably from their perspective that Johnny Lacoste was the top manong that they needed, or wanted, approval from to openly teach the filipino fighting arts. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Doug Robertson" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stockton's FMA History Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 22:52:46 +0000 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'd have said the top manong to be GM Regino Ilustrisimo :) >From: Ray >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stockton's FMA History >Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:28:12 -0800 (PST) > > > Would be so kind as to elaborate on this? My family is amongst the early > > Filipino settlement in Stockton circa 1930 and never did Manong Johnny >Lacoste > > carry the distinction of "head of the Stockton Filipino Community. " > >That story comes down from Max and Angel, so it was probably from their >perspective that Johnny Lacoste was the top manong that they needed, or >wanted, approval from to openly teach the filipino fighting arts. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima _________________________________________________________________ Think you're a film buff? Play the Movie Mogul quiz and win fantastic prizes! http://www.msnmoviemogul.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2006 16:29:21 -0800 From: Djinji Brown To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Fathers and Mothers Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This discussion is great because it opens up so many different points of view some based on historical fact some on personal experience. All to say....thank you all for the education. Although the "father" of eskrima in the USA may be a title that no one man can hold I think its safe to say that the Filipino Community as whole has given us in the USA a unique and beautiful gift in the form of FMA. Without the lifelong contributions of all these men and their students, and their students ( regardless of their relationships to each other ) we wouldn't be here today in this discussion. Thanks to all the masters, teachers, guros, students , organizations and most important the " MOTHERS" of those people who keep pushing FMA forward. Little steps big steps..it all counts. Next question....what is the history of women who have achieved such standards in FMA? Were women in the Filipino community traditionally forbidden to practice self defense? In most of the articles and discussions I've read, I've heard little or nothing of high ranking women who have helped to promote FMA. thanks again. D. Brown On Wednesday, December 20, 2006, at 02:21PM, "jay de leon" wrote: >Ray, I think it is safe to assume you were referring to me with that > oblique compliment about taking the safest approach. I will take it > as a compliment, thank you. > > Just one slight clarification. I was not really trying to identify or nominate > a "Father(s) of Eskrima in the US," but simply identifying individuals and > groups that contributed to the spread of FMA in the US. I included non- > Filipinos (like the Dog Brothers) as well as dozens (hundreds?) of garage > dojo owners, no masters by any stretch of the imagination and will not > probably qualify for the title in question. > > I can probably safely say though that, using any criteria, your elected > "Father of Eskrima of the USA" was included in my article. > > Which brings me to my contribution to this whole discussion. Before > you can agree on who that person(s) is, what you have to agree on are > the criteria that makes him worthy of the title--first to teach, taught the > most number of students, produced the most number of master or > guros, wrote the most books and press releases, promoted the most > number of tournaments and conducted the most number of seminars, > had the largest sphere of influence in all the US states, logged the most > number of miles teaching FMA, etc., etc. > > Jay de Leon > www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com > > > >Ray wrote: > Jay may have taken the safest approach by identifying several dozen :) >people as the Fathers of Eskrima in the US. In fact there were so many >active behind the scenes... > >People like Max Sarmiento that helped with the creation of the first open >FMA school in the US (or at least the mainland). And Johnny Lacoste... >When Max asked for permission to openly teach the FMAs, Johnny gave that >permission and recommended Angel to be the instructor. Johnny was the >head of the Stockton Filipino community, the largest Filipino community in >the world outside the of RP, and Max needed/wanted his approval to openly >teach the FMAs. And Al Concepcion who, as I mentioned a couple days ago, >was the first to sponsor many FMA masters on trips to visit and share their >art in the US. This worked great until he brought in one particular >instructor from the RP that overstayed his visa and then disappeared. This >instructor reappeared later, but by that time Al was no longer permitted >by the government to sponsor any more instructors into the US. > >Ray Terry >rterry@idiom.com >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2006: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest