Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 02:58:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #106 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: The Mass-Shooting Puzzle (Gibson, Tobias) 2. Re: Guns (buz_ed_alias@mac.com) 3. Devil's Advocate Advocates Devilishly (Gary Crumrine) 4. Guns (Michael Koblic) 5. Re: (Beungood8@aol.com) 6. Re: Gun Laws (Beungood8@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] The Mass-Shooting Puzzle Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 15:35:50 -0500 From: "Gibson, Tobias" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Second Amendment, and all other amendments that protect the civil liberties and civil rights of the American people, was written to remove decisions such as these from the (direct) hands of the electorate. The Founding Fathers had a real fear of a heated (and temporary) public opinion that would lead to electoral decisions that in the end would harm the Republic. That is why the branches are elected in staggered elections; why senators were originally selected by their state legislatures; and why the president is still chosen by the Electoral College. There is still the possibility of constitutional amendment that would override the 2nd, but until then, the rights of the people should remain secure... or be strengthened to the level that was originally intended. Tobias Gibson -----Original Message----- From: Leo Daher [mailto:leo_daher@hotmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 2:21 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] The Mass-Shooting Puzzle Even if there was "an electoral majority in America for taking away people's guns", that wouldn't be a good idea since criminals and the insane don't obey those laws anyway. I was living in Brazil in 1999 when a mentally disturbed college student went to?a movie theater?with a submachine gun and shot at the audience, killing three people and wounding five. Brazil has a draconian gun legislation, and it's impossible to legally purchase the firearm used in that crime. The student bought it from the same drug dealer that used to sell him cocaine. Fast forward to 2002, at the Appalachian School of Law, here in the US, when a deranged individual started a shooting rampage. After killing?three and wounding?three more, the criminal was confronted by two students who had retrieved handguns from their cars. Faced with meaningful resistance, he dropped his weapon and was then subdued. The lesson is clear: allowing those willing and able to exercise their right to self-protection is a better bet than trying to impose yet more repressive laws. "Praise be that which toughens" - Nietzsche -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eskrima-FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Mass-Shooting Puzzle Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 12:08:54 -0700 Just the last two paras from a opinion piece in today's Wall Street Journal... The Mass-Shooting Puzzle... "If a citizen accepts that there's no electoral majority in America for taking away people's guns, then the alternative is to consider how to make the law more conducive to better outcomes in cases like Cho Seung-Hui's. Dozens of states have acted to expand a citizen's right to carry a concealed weapon. The result has not been an entire populace going around armed and engaging in firefights over every fender bender. Just the opposite according to research by economists John Lott Jr. and William Landes -- few shooters seem to be looking for an encounter with an armed opponent and such crimes are rarer in concealed-carry states. "After all, some people are prepared, at their own expense, to obtain a gun, training and a concealed-carry permit. This is likely to include people who wouldn't have thought of arming themselves except when daily activity throws them unavoidably into proximity to somebody who makes them rationally afraid. If society can't process and react to warning signs given off by such people collectively, an alternative is to expand the opportunity for individuals to process and react to them personally. -- Ray Terry Sudlud Eskrima eskrima.fma.digest@gmail.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: buz_ed_alias@mac.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 17:07:30 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Guns Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pugil asks: > ...would you have everyone in the US carry a gun around with them > and rely > on who is quickest to the draw, and most accurate with their shot(s)? That kind of argument is called reductio ad absurdum, where an absurd conclusion is posited to suggest a given premise is false. Similar arguments are rolled out whenever concealed carry laws are passed or, as pointed out, when castle doctrines are enacted, and so on. Those arguments don't strike me as particularly effective as the outcome they worry over has not come to pass. Creating Criminal Empowerment Zones--areas where a criminal can be confident all potential victims are not armed--strikes me as pretty silly too. Self defense is a primary human right; remove the ability to defend one's self and you've removed the foundation from which all other rights flow. You would think that "lie down and wait to die" would not be a perspective you'd likely encounter in a martial arts forum, though that's what disarming everyone but criminals--who by definition do not obey the law--amounts to in active shooter situations like the recent one. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Gary Crumrine" To: Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:19:59 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Devil's Advocate Advocates Devilishly Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Friends, "So, playing Devil's Advocate here..." Well, it's always nice to discourse with someone who takes an opposing position simply for the sake of argument. In this case, however, the data supports none of the positions assumed. As we know, over 35 states have "shall issue" concealed handgun permits and none of the terrible consequences advanced by the "Devil's Advocate" have come to pass. As a matter of fact, it turns out Heinlein was right: an armed society is a polite society. Cordially, Gary Crumrine --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Michael Koblic" To: "Eskrima digest" Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 14:26:22 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Guns Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Isn't the answer somewhere in the middle? I totally agree with the principle that people should be able to arm themselves for self-protection. Draconian laws to restrict gun ownership have been shown repeatedly to be useless: It works the same way as with the terrorists - the insane or the terrorist only have to get lucky once, the law abiding citizen has to be lucky *all* the time. In a country where there are 300 million firearms it is simply avoidance of reality contending that enacting restrictive gun laws will remove access to firearms to the criminal element. (sorry about the tortured English :-) Having said that, we do not allow people to drive vehicles without some sort of assessment of their competence to do so. Would it not make sense to apply the same standard to firearms? Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:20:00 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/18/2007 4:28:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: What about those people who have a short fuse, or who are currently taking counselling (like our Korean friend), or who are on medication to control their schizophrenia, etc. Do you also allow them the 'right to bear arms? Resident Aliens should not have firearms or permits. Or a few licensed gun owners sitting in class might have taken care of it. Anyone of sound mind and body should have the right. I am a Police Officer and I believe in the second Amendment. Gun Laws only restrict law abiding citizens. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:22:11 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Gun Laws Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 4/18/2007 4:28:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: So, playing Devil's Advocate here... > > ...would you have everyone in the US carry a gun around with them and rely > on who is quickest to the draw, and most accurate with their shot(s)? Everyone? No. > [snip] > > Isn't that a step back in time to the days of the Old West? The old west is frequently and incorrectly referred to as the Wild West. History shows us it was actually more like the Mild West. The Wild West mostly existed only in the dime novels of the day and latter day movies. Yes, everyone of sound mind and proper training. Speaking as a Police Officer, if more average citizens carried maybe peole would be more polite and less road rage.. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest