Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:08:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #107 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: (Patrick Pace) 2. Re: Gun Laws (Leo Daher) 3. RE: Guns (*) 4. More on Guns (Ollie Batts) 5. **** you! (Ollie Batts) 6. Aliens (Ollie Batts) 7. guns? (TenDigitTouch) 8. Re: More on Guns (Ray) 9. Re: Aliens (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 21:27:27 -0700 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: From: Patrick Pace To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So because I am a British citizen living in the US I should not have the right to defend myself or own a gun? P On Wednesday, April 18, 2007, at 08:20 PM, Beungood8@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 4/18/2007 4:28:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > What about those people who have a short fuse, or who are currently > taking > counselling (like our Korean friend), or who are on medication to > control > their schizophrenia, etc. Do you also allow them the 'right to bear > arms? > > > > Resident Aliens should not have firearms or permits. Or a few > licensed gun > owners sitting in class might have taken care of it. Anyone of sound > mind > and body should have the right. I am a Police Officer and I believe > in the > second Amendment. Gun Laws only restrict law abiding citizens. > > > > ************************************** See what's free at > http://www.aol.com. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Leo Daher" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 00:57:33 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Gun Laws Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for pointing that out. I'm tired of the ignorance behind that silly "Old West" analogy. "Praise be that which toughens" - Nietzsche -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beungood8@aol.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Gun Laws Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:22:11 EDT In a message dated 4/18/2007 4:28:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > Isn't that a step back in time to the days of the Old West? The old west is frequently and incorrectly referred to as the Wild West. History shows us it was actually more like the Mild West. The Wild West mostly existed only in the dime novels of the day and latter day movies. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "*" To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Guns Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 01:30:17 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Koblic, I'm not attempting to start a "flame war" or anything like that. However, I felt I had to respond to your email. Would you feel the same if you were required to get someone else's permission to state your opinion? Should there be a requirement for an assessment of your competence to state that opinion? Owning a weapon (gun, rifle, etc.) is a right conferred by the U.S. Constitution to U.S. citizens. The blood dancing gun banners are always talking about "sensible" gun laws. That always means: remove everyone else's guns. Many of the most adamant banners have people hired to protect them. The first action taken by SUCCESSFUL tyrants is to remove the means to resist from the average citizen. Any study of history will demonstrate that fact. Escrima is taught by private citizens. Should an assessment of competence be required prior to teaching/studying Escrima, Pikiti-Tirsia, Kali? Would you have all knives and sticks registered, licensed and/or confiscated? In many countries even the study of the martial arts has been prohibited. A gun is just a tool. As with bamboo sticks, knives, fist and feet, a gun in just a hunk of metal without the human will activating it. If ONE of the teachers had a weapon at the school it is possible the murders would have been stopped. There is no ultimate protection except for those willing and able to stand up to evil. There never has been, nor will there ever be. Making it hard, or impossible for good people to resist evil by removing/limiting their means to resist only encourages evil to flourish and prosper. Thanks for your consideration and patience, John Gibson Lakeland, Florida -----Original Message----- From: Michael Koblic [mailto:mkoblic@uniserve.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 5:26 PM To: Eskrima digest Subject: [Eskrima] Guns Isn't the answer somewhere in the middle? I totally agree with the principle that people should be able to arm themselves for self-protection. Draconian laws to restrict gun ownership have been shown repeatedly to be useless: It works the same way as with the terrorists - the insane or the terrorist only have to get lucky once, the law abiding citizen has to be lucky *all* the time. In a country where there are 300 million firearms it is simply avoidance of reality contending that enacting restrictive gun laws will remove access to firearms to the criminal element. (sorry about the tortured English :-) Having said that, we do not allow people to drive vehicles without some sort of assessment of their competence to do so. Would it not make sense to apply the same standard to firearms? Michael Koblic, Campbell River, BC _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 10:18:26 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] More on Guns Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Like I said, I was playing Devil's Advocate - at least to an extent - and sought only to open up a reasoned debate on the subject. I certainly wasn't in any way attempting to change anyone's point of view on the subject, and certainly not someone with such deeply entrenched feelings about it as you seem to have. When I said 'rely on who is quickest..." I meant that if everyone walks the streets carrying a firearm, in order for them to stay alive if/when they fall foul of another person, also armed, they would have to rely on their skill being better than that of their opponent(s). Otherwise they lose. The fact that you "...trust that most people are not murderers..." means that the guy you've just had an argument with, over a parking space or whatever, has the advantage over you if he does not share that same trust in you. So he may in fact draw his weapon first and shoot you before you even realise things have gone that far in his warped brain. So will you then adopt the habit of drawing first, just in case? Sounds like a Mexican stand-off to me. The Korean 'Fruitcake', whose right you continue to defend to be allowed to carry a firearm - ("Short answer is yes. Being under medical care doesn't take away any of your rights unless a court orders it...") killed 32 people. In the two days that followed that truly horrendous event, that same number of children and teenagers will have died in gun accidents alone in the U.S. And for every day that follow, another 16 youngsters will continue to die that way. Americans speak of their "right to bear arms". Along with those rights, shouldn't there also be some responsibilities too? My comments don't mean that I call for a ban on guns in the United States. Hell, that's up to you lot. I don't live there. But don't you see that to many people living in 'the outside world', you seem to be heading towards some kind of Mad Max society? Pugil From: Steve Ames To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Guns Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Wed, Apr 18, 2007 at 11:55:38AM +0100, Ollie Batts wrote: > So, playing Devil's Advocate here... > > ...would you have everyone in the US carry a gun around with them and rely > on who is quickest to the draw, and most accurate with their shot(s)? Not sure what you mean by rely? What do I rely on in the present scenario? > What about those people who have a short fuse, or who are currently taking > counselling (like our Korean friend), or who are on medication to control > their schizophrenia, etc. Do you also allow them the 'right to bear arms? Short answer is yes. Being under medical care doesn't take away any of your rights unless a court orders it (due process and what). > And what happens when the red mist comes down, after you nudge some angry > person's arm and spill their beer, or when you just happen to pull into that > one remaining parking space at the shopping mall ahead of them, for example. > Do you simply trust that your reactions and aim will be better than theirs? ? I trust that most people are not murderers. I trust that simply putting a gun in their hands won't make them so. I further trust that _most_ people's sense of self preservation will tell them that going to prison forever over spilt beer makes no sense. By and large most people are pretty responsible. > Isn't that a step back in time to the days of the Old West? Isn't this the standard anti-gun argument? When Florida adopted the castle doctrine a few years ago, "Gun Control" advocates fortold that the streets would be filled with gunfire and shootouts reminiscent of the wild west. We're still waiting. I'm also waiting for one of these gun control advocates to point out successful legislation. There's plenty of evidence going the other way that gets ignored on a rather frequent basis. More laws doesn't equal less crime. On an esrkima-ish note... countries that have adopted strict anti-gun laws have also adopted, or are considering, laws severely limiting blades as well. -steve --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:35:23 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] **** you! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And you'd also think that, on a Forum such as this, people would be allowed to raise certain questions, express a range of view-points, engage in adult debate, without someone coming along and virtually accusing them of being a lily-livered coward too! Pugil "You would think that "lie down and wait to die" would not be a perspective you'd likely encounter in a martial arts forum, though that's what disarming everyone but criminals--who by definition do not obey the law--amounts to in active shooter situations like the recent one. Regards, Buz Grover --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:14:16 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Aliens Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Please forgive me if I'm wrong but, are you saying that people who are visitors to your country should have sub-standard rights when it comes to protecting themselves then? Whilst your own citizens have the right to bear arms and defend themselves, who will defend the visitors against the low-life in your society? As for the oft-quoted 'second amendment', do you see the resident non-alien population in America as all being part of a "...well regulated Militia..." then? Pugil From: Beungood8@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2007 23:20:00 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Resident Aliens should not have firearms or permits. Or a few licensed gun owners sitting in class might have taken care of it. Anyone of sound mind and body should have the right. I am a Police Officer and I believe in the second Amendment. Gun Laws only restrict law abiding citizens. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 05:18:04 -0700 (PDT) From: TenDigitTouch To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] guns? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Our prayers go out for the familys, and students, and those who are effected from now on by this horrible tragedy. The thing just mushrooms, as more information becomes available about the perp. Why hasn't anyone started a discussion of how all schools, government agencies, large scale employers, and so on should be having regular training and drills for students and employees on "man with a gun" situations? We used to have tornado drills. We used to have "cold war" drills. People should be trained, and have some conditioning. If you fight how you are trained, why not? Obviously it takes the police a while to respond/react, and in the mean time ...? I mean surely there are large group tactics that can be used successfully for unarmed defenders to overpower, subdue, disarm, and detain 1 armed person (who is firing a weapon)? Yes there will be casualties, but there will if no one defends, right? How many of you are teachers of martial arts? Why isn't this being taught? How do we get it taught? Rp --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] More on Guns To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:08:03 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > In the two days that followed that truly horrendous event, that same number > of children and teenagers will have died in gun accidents alone in the U.S. > And for every day that follow, another 16 youngsters will continue to die > that way. We are now straying from MA... but where are you finding this stat?!? Gun accidents are fairly rare here in the US, primarily thanks to the firearm safety efforts of the NRA over the last many years. With 300 million people in the US, many with access to firearms (thankfully), sure there will be occasional accidents. In the same way that there are accidents from just walking to work each day. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Aliens To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:09:21 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Whilst your own citizens have the right to bear arms and defend themselves, > who will defend the visitors against the low-life in your society? The same armed citizens... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest