Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2007 02:58:29 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #109 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Gun and such (gatpuno@aol.com) 2. Re: Gun and such (cheif) 3. Re: **** You! (buz_ed_alias@mac.com) 4. Re: More on Guns (Leo Daher) 5. The Mad Max Society (bgdebuque) 6. Re: The Mad Max Society (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:01:26 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Gun and such Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I cant help my self not to get involve put my worth two cent opinion on Guns and such regulation. Well, all of you have a valid point to give what Do and Dont. But I think whatetever happent Virginia tech is nothing to do with gun restriction. I would assume, the more you said you cant have this, is the more people wanted to have it. I saw this first hand in the Philippines during "Marcos Presidency" 1972 he declared Martial Laws, but no matter how the authority tried to cotroll the people not to own a gun, I believed more people own a gun, on Martial Law more than before Martial Law. There is a lot of media coverage showing people surrendering gun, but the one being surrendered is those old gun that already not working, then after more killing used of Gun thans it use to be. But the point is the if 3/4 of the Population of the Philippines cannot afford to buy Gun and able to get one, much more in the US we have more means of getting gun, easier than other country financially. So I think Gun is not the problem here. I believed tomorrow or the next day after this similar scenario will be tap by more "Massacre" or mass killing using Gun or similar weapon. I bet none of us, including authority could even predict and control that. No matter how much analysis would do is hard to get this figure it out, since the person likely would commint this kind of crime is those people that no records, and it used to be Law abiding citizen. I witness Mass killing or Massacre in the Philiipines using knife, bolo and guns, I believed the more they forbid to carry such weapon is the more people want to carry them. Some of us one way or the others we did things that against the law. I believed that issue is hot becaused of what have happen, who knows and who can predict what going to happen in the future, The only things that authority can do is to keep on eye on the future possible events. May be arrive there little as soon as they need them. It accur to me, this situation could have been control to a minimal level, if they act quick enough to catch him, Two hour later then he got a chance to killed this more than 20's more people. What the authorities is thinking in two hours? This is the problem not the gun.. Salamat Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 12:08:14 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: cheif To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Gun and such Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net People kill people..the gun only helps.. -----Original Message----- >From: gatpuno@aol.com >Sent: Apr 19, 2007 12:01 PM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Gun and such > >Hello, > >I cant help my self not to get involve put my worth two cent opinion on >Guns and such regulation. Well, all of you have a valid point to give >what Do and Dont. But I think whatetever happent Virginia tech is >nothing to do with gun restriction. I would assume, the more you said >you cant have this, is the more people wanted to have it. I saw this >first hand in the Philippines during "Marcos Presidency" 1972 he >declared Martial Laws, but no matter how the authority tried to cotroll >the people not to own a gun, I believed more people own a gun, on >Martial Law more than before Martial Law. There is a lot of media >coverage showing people surrendering gun, but the one being surrendered >is those old gun that already not working, then after more killing >used of Gun thans it use to be. But the point is the if 3/4 of the >Population of the Philippines cannot afford to buy Gun and able to get >one, much more in the US we have more means of getting gun, easier than >other country financially. > >So I think Gun is not the problem here. I believed tomorrow or the next >day after this similar scenario will be tap by more "Massacre" or mass >killing using Gun or similar weapon. I bet none of us, including >authority could even predict and control that. No matter how much >analysis would do is hard to get this figure it out, since the person >likely would commint this kind of crime is those people that no >records, and it used to be Law abiding citizen. I witness Mass killing >or Massacre in the Philiipines using knife, bolo and guns, I believed >the more they forbid to carry such weapon is the more people want to >carry them. Some of us one way or the others we did things that against >the law. > >I believed that issue is hot becaused of what have happen, who knows >and who can predict what going to happen in the future, The only things >that authority can do is to keep on eye on the future possible events. >May be arrive there little as soon as they need them. It accur to me, >this situation could have been control to a minimal level, if they act >quick enough to catch him, Two hour later then he got a chance to >killed this more than 20's more people. What the authorities is >thinking in two hours? This is the problem not the gun.. > >Salamat > >Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet >Garimot Arnis Training Group International >Laguna Arnis Federation International >US Harimaw Buno Federation >Hilot Research center USA >Tel. 954-432-4433 >www.garimot.com > >________________________________________________________________________ >AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free >from AOL at AOL.com. >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: buz_ed_alias@mac.com Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 13:08:04 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: **** You! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pugil states: > And you'd also think that, on a Forum such as this, people would be > allowed > to raise certain questions, express a range of view-points, engage > in adult > debate, without someone coming along and virtually accusing them of > being a > lily-livered coward too! I haven't seen anyone call you a coward of any variety. You've made some shopworn arguments that have not come to pass despite similar dire pronouncements made by gun banners, but no one has called you a coward, virtual or otherwise. Is this some sort of argument fallacy test? First reductio ad absurdum, now straw men? > The fact that you "...trust that most people are not murderers..." > means that > the guy you've just had an argument with, over a parking space or > whatever, > has the advantage over you if he does not share that same trust in > you. So > he may in fact draw his weapon first and shoot you before you even > realise > things have gone that far in his warped brain. So will you then > adopt the > habit of drawing first, just in case? Sounds like a Mexican stand- > off to me. As someone who is out and about armed regularly, and knows a lot a people who do the same, I've never heard of an example like this coming to pass. All evidence points to the fact that citizens with concealed carry permits are more law abiding than the norm--and hence not likely to involve themselves in scenarios like the one outlined above. There is a lot of data out there supporting this fact if you'd like to be pointed toward it. > The Korean 'Fruitcake', whose right you continue to defend to be > allowed to > carry a firearm - ("Short answer is yes. Being under medical care > doesn't > take away any of your rights unless a court orders it...") killed > 32 people. No one is defending his act. He broke several laws prior to his first pull of the trigger. Criminals ignore laws; are you suggesting that passing more laws for them to ignore will somehow benefit society? > In the two days that followed that truly horrendous event, that > same number > of children and teenagers will have died in gun accidents alone in > the U.S. > And for every day that follow, another 16 youngsters will continue > to die > that way. Americans speak of their "right to bear arms". Along with > those > rights, shouldn't there also be some responsibilities too? This "statistic" sounds very similar to one made by the Brady Bunch and has been amply disproved. If memory serves, most of the "children" were 16 to 22 year old gang bangers. The number of children under twelve accidently killed by firearms in any given year numbers in the single or double digits. Tragedies all, as are the far greater number of kids who drown in five gallon buckets, swimming pools, killed in motor vehicle accidents, and so on. For some reason these other tragedies don't inspire the sorts of histrionics that guns do, nor do the number of instances where lives are saved by firearms get mentioned. > My comments don't mean that I call for a ban on guns in the United > States. > Hell, that's up to you lot. I don't live there. But don't you see > that to > many people living in 'the outside world', you seem to be heading > towards > some kind of Mad Max society? The problems is that your dire "Mad Max society" premise doesn't hold true. The areas of the US where you are safest also have high rates of gun ownership. The areas of the US with the highest rates of crime have the lowest rate of firearm ownership. Criminals prefer unarmed victims, who'd have thunk it? Please also note that when the UK outlawed guns, that rate of gun crime shot up and continues to today. Assaults, robberies, etc. have also increased dramatically. Not Mad Max, perhaps, but well on the way to Clockwork Orange IMO. > As for the oft-quoted 'second amendment', do you see the resident > non-alien > population in America as all being part of a "...well regulated > Militia..." > then? The United States Annotated Code Title 19, Subtitle A, Part I, Chapter 13, § 311 states the militia "consists of all able bodied males at least 17 years of age . . . and under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United State. . . ." Not sure what a "resident non-alien" is--did you mean resident alien?--but if they've made the declaration mentioned above, then I imagine they are militia members. Regards, --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Leo Daher" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] More on Guns Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:09:53 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net During the Clinton anti-gun administration, they used to count every death by gunshot 21 years old and younger as "children" for statistics purposes. That included gangbanggers killing each other over turf, and young, violent career criminals shot by the police or by armed citizens in self-defense. That just might be the origin of that absurd statement about "16 children and youngsters dying every day". "Praise be that which toughens" - Nietzsche -------------------------------------------------------------------- From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] More on Guns Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 06:08:03 -0700 (PDT) > In the two days that followed that truly horrendous event, that same number > of children and teenagers will have died in gun accidents alone in the U.S. > And for every day that follow, another 16 youngsters will continue to die > that way. We are now straying from MA... but where are you finding this stat?!? Gun accidents are fairly rare here in the US, primarily thanks to the firearm safety efforts of the NRA over the last many years. With 300 million people in the US, many with access to firearms (thankfully), sure there will be occasional accidents. In the same way that there are accidents from just walking to work each day. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 23:54:43 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Mad Max Society Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The last time I checked, it seems that the "Mad Max Society" had already saved the "Outside World" three (3) times: 1. WWI (which BTW was started by the more civilized "Outside World") 2. WWII (which again was started by the more civilized "Outside World") 3. Cold War (which again was started by the more civilized "Outside World") Can you just imagine how human civilization would have looked right now had the "Mad Max Society" lost any of the abovementioned conflicts? People like the Virginia Shooter would always pop up like an aberration once in a while. "The Right to Bear Arms", however, is simply just too precious to be used as a knee-jerk CYA palliative to address the problem. Besides, was it Benjamin Franklin who said: "If you sacrifice freedom for security, you will neither have both..." > "Hell, that's up to you lot. I don't live there. But don't you see that to > many people living in 'the outside world', you seem to be heading towards > some kind of Mad Max society?" --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Mad Max Society To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:12:14 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Besides, was it Benjamin Franklin who said: "If you sacrifice freedom for > security, you will neither have both..." A great quote, that comes in many flavors, but Wikiquote claims... ================================================ * Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. o This statement was used as a motto on the title page of An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania. (1759) which was attributed to Franklin in the edition of 1812, but in a letter of September 27, 1760 to David Hume, he states that he published this book and denies that he wrote it, other than a few remarks that were credited to the Pennsylvania Assembly, in which he served. The phrase itself was first used in a letter from that Assembly dated November 11, 1755 to the Governor of Pennsylvania. An article on the origins of this statement here includes a scan that indicates the original typography of the 1759 document, which uses an archaic form of "s": "ThoĊże who would give up Essential Liberty to purchaĊże a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Researchers now believe that a fellow diplomat by the name of Richard Jackson is the primary author of the book. With the information thus far available the issue of au thorship of the statement is not yet definitely resolved, but the evidence indicates it was very likely Franklin, who in the Poor Richard's Almanack of 1738 is known to have written a similar proverb: "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." o Many paraphrased variants derived from this saying have arisen and have usually been incorrectly attributed to Franklin: "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." "Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither" "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security" "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither" "People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both." "If we restrict liberty to attain security we will lose them both." "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." "He who gives up freedom for safety deserves neither" ================================================ So it sounds like we should use this quote wrt Franklin... "Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power." Now how to work that into an FMA theme... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest