Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:01:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #117 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Alternative Weapons (Jonathan Kessler) 2. Re: Firearms (iPat) 3. Re: Title, title, and such. (Daniel Arola) 4. Re: The use of the title "Mas"... (iPat) 5. Re: Firearms (Ray) 6. RE: guru, massguru, tuhon (Rich Acosta) 7. re 'Mas' 'Tuhon' ' Pak' titels of senior guros (John Chow) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:51:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Alternative Weapons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good post. A lot of people, perhaps especially new eskrimadors, think of weapons as a magic pill to make them safe. Weapons skills relate very closely to empty hands skills, and enhance those skills. If you feel that you are at a disadvantage when you're without a weapon, then you have lost a big part of the mental fight already. If you feel secure in your ability to handle confrontations (physical, verbal, awareness, and other skills) without a weapon, then the availability of a weapon that you are trained to use and to access (or a good awareness and ability to use environmental weapons) makes you that much stronger and more capable. JK Eskrima-FMA wrote: Alternative Weapons policeone.com By Ralph Mroz There are times when you either choose not to, or can't carry a firearm while off-duty. In theory, the recently-enacted federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) allows active and retired police officers to carry handguns nationwide. Certainly this law, coupled with the fact that most officers don't mind other officers being armed in their jurisdiction, will get you a long way. However, there are still some wrinkles being worked out in the implementation of the law, particularly in regard to retired officers. And, there are some jurisdictions where the political atmosphere and the attitude of the politically-appointed police brass make it more likely that you'll get an unfriendly reception to being armed. Of course, there are places where you can't be legally armed: airports, etc. And, there are times in which you may simply choose not to be armed. Most of us don't strap on our gun to run to the grocery store. There are several weapons that you can easily carry. Let's review a few and touch on some things to avoid. Empty hands Yes, good old basic empty-hand skills. These can get you a long way, and the fact is you should have them already! You need them for three reasons. First, in many bad situations where you'd like to access a higher level weapon, (your OC, Taser, baton or gun) you simply won't have time due to the spontaneous nature of the attack. You will thus be forced to deal with the attack with empty hands either entirely, or initially to gain time to access your weapon. Second, empty-hand skills—power generation, balance, movement, flow etc—are the basis of higher-level weapon skills. The coordination and balance you develop with empty-hand skills help you move better when you have to shoot, or use any other weapon. Firearms instructors often notice that martial artists pick up gun skills more quickly than people with no empty-hands background. Third, let's not forget that most of the time we have to mix it up with subjects, we do so "hands-on". We use our empty hand skills a lot already on the job. You don't need to be a black-belt or invest years of study to acquire effective empty-hand skills. The street-realistic, reality-based combat systems that have sprung up go by the generic name of combatives, and many of these systems are very good indeed. Chances are there's a school near you where you can learn a lot in a short time. High-intensity light Yeah, your flashlight! Surefire, Blackhawk, Pentagonlight, Pelican and others make a wide variety of small high-intensity lights. You most likely already have one…or several. You should always carry one with you while on duty, and one with you whenever you are out after dark off-duty. These 60+ lumen lights are force multipliers for any other weapon you have—fighting someone who's blinded by them is a lot easier. And while they aren't really force tools in and of themselves, they can act a lot like one. Flashing their light in an attacker's eyes can provide you precious seconds to escape, access a weapon or initiate a surprise counterattack. OC In some instances you may be able to carry pepper spray when you can't carry a gun. Small canisters of it can easily be carried even if you are only wearing swim trunks. Cane/Walking Stick You are superbly armed with nothing more than a simple stick if you know how to use it. If you have ever seen the martial arts of Arnis, Escrima or Kali, you may have come to the same conclusion. These exquisite Filipino arts are stick-based and they turn a simple stick into a blazing blur of deadly (or non-deadly) weaponry. Check out your local area, for a school teaching these arts. While the Filipino stick arts favor a light, medium-length stick, some Western based stick systems favor a heavy, longer stick. In addition to their excellent line of edged weapons, Cold Steel (www.coldsteel.com) puts out a series of fighting canes and walking sticks, and a set of instructional videos for their use. You may run across cane-fighting systems based on a cane with a larger crook. I'm not convinced about these, however, as the systems I've seen are fairly elaborate and rely too much on snagging your assailant with the crook—something that seems far easier in the training hall than on the street. A knife Most of us carry a folding knife. A pocket- or waistband-clipped folder with a 3- to 4-inch rapidly opening blade is a formidable weapon, as most of us know from the classic police training film, Surviving Edged Weapons. If you want to know how to use it defensively, I recommend four easy methods. First, remember those Filipino stick schools I mentioned above? Well, in the Filipino arts, the stick is the tool used by beginners, but it really represents a machete or a knife. So these schools not only provide you with stick training, but knife training as well. Second, the Police Officers Safety Association offers a basic tutorial on knife skills for law enforcement to any verified police officer. Just go to the website (www.posai.org) which will verify your law enforcement status with PoliceOne.com, and you can download the entire 90-minute video program for free. Third, Cold Steel also has excellent knife training tapes. Fourth, Paladin Press (www.paladin-press.com) has quite a selection of good knife combatives video programs.Stick with a basic, ordinary, one-handed opening knife. Avoid odd or unusually shaped knifes. Also, avoid switchblades because many states outlaw them, federal law restricts them, and they really aren't a lot faster to open than you can learn to accomplish with a regular one-handed opening folder. The Taser C2 Taser International has just introduced a new citizen Taser that is not shaped like a pistol. It is meant to be a one-time use device for citizen self-defense, as opposed to the Tasers carried on duty. It fires a 15-foot cartridge with a 50 (yes — 50!) second duty cycle. It is meant to be fired, dropped and to provide you with a 50-second window of escape. The Taser C2 is legal in a lot of states and it has an attractive $300 price tag. What not to carry There's a ton of information and misinformation about self-defense weapons. In making your choice, remember that any alternate weapon you carry for defense has to meet three criteria. It must be easy to carry and simple to deploy; it must be effective and it must be legal. Items like Kubutons can certainly be used to great effect by experts, but they will just get in the way for most people. Things like sap hats (yes, you can buy a hat with a sewn-in lead weight) or caustic aerosol sprays may seem cool, but they can land you in trouble after the fact. Martial arts weapons like nunchuckos or brass knuckles are illegal in many places. A word about pens—ordinary writing pens. We all know that these simple items can be turned into deadly weapons if need be. There are now some talented people selling special all-steel or all-titanium pens to be so used. Two comments: 1) any sturdy pen will probably serve as in improvised emergency self-defense weapon, and 2) don't rely on a pen or any improvised weapon to save the day—it's real purpose is as a force multiplier. Without empty-hand skill, its value is close to zero. Self-defense is a system, not a technique. You need basic empty-hand skills as a foundation. Don't believe that your weapon—whatever it is—will save the day. Don't forget that self-defense is fighting, and you need to be able to fight. Sandals and loose shoes will land you on your butt rapidly in a fight, so wear lace-up shoes whenever you are out. Don't attract trouble by wearing anything flashy or expensive—blend into your environment. And don't wear anything that identifies you as a cop, including those popular tactical pants and shirts. Not only do you lose the element of surprise should you be attacked, you are sending an invitation to be singled out in situations such as a robbery or hostage-taking. Last, carry your badge and ID with you, but not in your wallet! If you carry it there, it can be seen whenever you pay for something. Worse, if your wallet is taken during a robbery or hijacking, you have just identified yourself as someone who ought to be "put out of the way." Carry your badge and ID in a separate badge wallet in an out-of-the-way pocket. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:53:19 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Firearms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On 4/25/07, Ray wrote: > I don't think we've seen that suggestion, and least not in this thread. well, i could cut and paste several excerts but just from your post: On 4/19/07, Ray wrote: > > Whilst your own citizens have the right to bear arms and defend themselves, > > who will defend the visitors against the low-life in your society? > > The same armed citizens... maybe a generalisation but , apart from ET, everyone should have the right to be armed apart from the criminals, tends to be the mantra here. Of course there needs to be legislation - probably from the government - but the comments from the article that started the thread implied that anyone who puts it forward is not a real american and Pierre doesnt want any govt legislation. Personally i like firing guns, was taught at a young age. Fired a cannon once. The monkees scare me though...; ) -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 13:08:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Title, title, and such. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Okay, I do admit that my post was a little "off-colour" and I will also say that Manong Baet has humbled me gracefully by his response to my post. It wasn't a proper way to adress the issue and I knew that even while I posted it. I have no excuse for that and neither will I make one to redeem my "un-educated" remark. For the record, I do believe that Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet's reply in this thread posting has said it all. From what I've learned of this man's reputation from first-hand accounts from fellow Eskrima practitioners that have met and learned from him personally and from what I've viewed in videos of his performance as a teacher and fighter. I would not dare dispute his wisdom, or I would be spitting kamote and then some.... hahah. Daniel Arola gatpuno@aol.com wrote: Title. tilte, title, I was not going to touch this topic, but it came to me so hard not to. Again, I would love to express my opinion for one thing I am so sure about. I believed is nice to have a discussion in such things, so we can clear up the glossy meaning of your reccent title (claim so called name) but to dis-respect the title of someone really earn it, then its different story. Let me put it this way I really dont care how many title and degree you put on your name before you as long you can really carry that load to your shoulder. Meaning if you claimed as such then you act as such. The only problem is, many people are allowing themselves to say so much thing and dis-respect other whom using such title. One question is, did you ever ffoguth this guy, and you are so not agree that he is not what he want to be called? Then that different that attacking and disresfecting others titles. Why we dont go forward and start asking this person if they would love to play fight and see if you can measure his skill, Or yourself dont even klnow what level of skill you need to measure? I am so soppurtive to all GM, Master, Fighters, that doing the right things for themselves test their skills, not to your student test it to others. Tournament is the thrid level "testing Ground", sparring without really muct rule to follow is the second level and first level is the real deat situation. Now, who ever have a guts to you all and have a problem with such title then go back to the old "Eskrima Tradition" Challenge that person then if he back out then you know that his title is not mean anything. Today he is Grandmaster tomorrow he will be called Grand Kamote.(Sweet Potato Farmer). Then practitioner that used Filipino word as title, I suggest refer your title to our Dictionary, there is a lot availbale Filipino, Visayan, Bicolano, Hiligaynon, Ilokano etc./English Dictionary. So you would not be attack or even laugh of of this "Internet Fighter" I will call it Enter Kamote. About me I am simple man, I leave their title alone, but if they did something to get me goin, their better be ready I ain't backing out for a fight, in any way, you want fight by word, then go ahead I will used my English Kamote (Filipino English) against anyone used their so called good English to me. Ttile, let's analize what is the meaning of such title instead, rather than give them a negative comment. Grandmaster or not Grandmaster so what? That what he want, and then let it be, we have no right to controll that, you are not even sure who you are. Okay to all concern you are now my business and I will accept and le me pay the consequences. Guro is is title of the people teach in the Philippines, that why a lot of us used this title, or sometimes we used Maestro/Maestra adopted word from Spanish word means teacher. Mas-Guro is self creation Filipino word, but is easy to understand the meaning maybe he want o say higher Teacher of advance Teacher, Tuhon is another word, so leave them alone I suggest and go back to what we love the most to talk about technical, history and achievements of each member. Experiences that some of us never experienced it to our whole life, that the reason whay I joined this digest, to learn from all of you, but if you all throwing this and that, this is not good. As a member I think also have to voice to let everyone know to leave the title alone. If anyone have a problem with that then start to yourself, see who you are who you really are, are you really a Eskrimadoir, Are you really Arnisador, Are you really a Kalista? Arnis, Eskrimador, Kalista is a gentleman, dont fight attacking people title, the real Eskrimador fight Face to face, not afraid to face the real opponent the agressor. Now we are being just a bunch of bad-mouth Eskrimador, let see it in your skill not how pretty you can "Trash" someone title. Here is the original meassage: Can anyone tell me the difference between guru,massguru and tuhon. This few of the answer them. Guro/Guru = I like titles Masguro = I love titles Tuhon = Lordy, how I love titles Nothing good to say.. What in the hell is this crap? "mas-guru"? Which seems to me, is a load of garbage made up by someone who's been doing too much acid in the 70s. That's what I think. What everyone is thinking, is a valid question it deserve a valid answer, if you know. If you have nothing good to say, I suggest dont say anything. this show me what kind of people are you. Now I would like to move this issue to more best of you do, Eskrima Arnis. If you do have a problem with that then keep it to yourself and then once you see that person tell him,and live like Ekrimador. To someone asked this question the answer is Guro/Guru-Teacher, Massguro(created Filipino word for MoreTeacher or Better Teacher), Tuhon is Teacher too, it is accepted term by mojority of Eskrimadores around the world now. like Kali term. Sige na, I will post something on the Guna dnKnife later, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 23:03:18 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The use of the title "Mas"... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I heard a story where Guro Inosanto approached his mother, who was seated with several other Filipino women all of which could speak in different dialects, and refferred to a name that laCoste had used. Guro I had asked his mother if that was the correct term and all the women said they had never heard the term in LaCoste's dialect nor their own. Then suddenly his mother said that in his fathers dialect it meant ...whatever it was... It turned out LaCoste had so much respect for Inosanto senior he had taught Inosanto jnr using terms in his fathers dialect. When i moved to Scotland dinner meant an evening meal, where it had meant lunch where i lived before. Ale refferred to soda rather than beer. What did they call arnis or eskrima before tha spanish came i dare not ask! ; ) On 4/25/07, John Montes wrote: > Hi All, > > I had a party at my house a few years back and was > introduced to a gentleman by the name of Chester > Melonius- a Dutch-Indo Pentjak Silat Manyang > Instructor. I visited Chester, who also happens to be > a Kali player, during one of his classes at a local > fitness center. I happened to notice that the kids > were calling him "Mas Chester." I'm guessing that the > title is Indonesian (?) and may mean "Master," as in > "Master Teacher" i.e. Mas Guru/Mas Guro. So it may be > a multi-stylist (Silat/FMA, not terribly uncommon) > mixing titles. It immediately made sense to me, but > then again "Gura" makes sense to me too so, go > figure.. :) hehehe > fyi Gura Michelle is a very sweet person and > instructor of Kamatuuran Kali. > > Eskrima for life, > > ~John > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Firearms To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 18:14:32 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > On 4/25/07, Ray wrote: > > I don't think we've seen that suggestion, and least not in this thread. > > well, i could cut and paste several excerts but just from your post: > > On 4/19/07, Ray wrote: >>> Whilst your own citizens have the right to bear arms and defend themselves, >>> who will defend the visitors against the low-life in your society? >> >> The same armed citizens... Sorry, but that did not, and does not, imply in any way that everyone should be armed. One simple counterexample... those that do not wish to be armed should not be armed. Should law abiding citizens around the world have the right to be armed (very very different from everyone being armed)? Yes, of course. Of that there is little doubt. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Rich Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: kuntawkalikruzada@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 22:51:01 -0500 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro= TeacherTuhon= The highest Some may choose not to use any titles when they teach and that is fine here in America, but keep the following in mind if you travel to the Philippines to train. Many Filipinos consider it a sign of disrespect to ignore a title that a person has earned through formal education, and simply call that person Mr.or Mrs., let alone refer to them by their first name. For instance if your last name is Sanchez and you are a doctor they will refer to you as Doctor Sanchez, if you are a lawyer they will refer to you as Attorney Sanchez, If you are an Engineer they will call you Engineer Sanchez and so on and so forth. It is just proper Filipino etiquette. Filipinos place a very high value on respect, everyone regardless of their station is paid some kind of respect if they are older or in a position of authority i.e. Kuya (older brother) Ate (older sister) Manong/Manang (elder), Tatay/Tatang (father) Tito (uncle), Tita (aunt) are all terms that are not only used to refer to family but even people you are not related to and may have just met. So you have to question why someone would not want to make such a simple gesture as to call a respected FMA teacher a Guro when that is the very least you should do when a person is willing to accept you as a student. I know that most FMA teachers in the Philippines will not demand that you address them by their titles, and they may even allow you to call them by their first names, but keep in mind that underneath it all they may feel uncomfortable every time you do so but are most likely too polite to correct you or rather impose their cultural norms on you. Regards, Rich Acosta ----- Original Message ----- From: Daniel Arola Subject: RE: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What in the hell is this crap? "mas-guru"? Which seems to me, is a load of garbage made up by someone who's been doing too much acid in the 70s. That's what I think. I'm an instructor in FMA, but I (as a personal preference) don't even bother with using a title to place before my first name. I enjoy relating and connecting with who I train with and teach to the point where I just simply tell them.... "Just call me Daniel" "james jr. sy" wrote: Agree with that, Guro is teacher and is applicable to both male and female genders. The term is not specific to martial arts. Guro is also used for academic teachers here in the Philippines. Although I've come across a Gura in the net which is supposedly for a female teacher. People who had read of it in the Philippines, me included, just laughed. There's no such thing as a gura in the Filipino language. The Tagalog word mas indeed expresses degree of, as in mas gwapo (more handsome). It's more for a comparison of two things. However it would be grammatically inappropriate in Filipino to use mas with guro when used as a title. Mas guro, literally then would be "more teacher." But then Myron's guess is by far the nearest possible, if there is indeed something called massaguru. In the Philippines, there's no massaguru. Guru is different from Guro. Guru I believe is Sanskrit and refers to somebody who is enlightened or someone knowledgeable or with wisdom. Not just sure. I believe that guro and guru became interchangeable when they arrived in the US, especially with martial artists who practice FMA with other arts like Indoensian Silat. Just a theory. Tujon. Here, in Negros Occidental as well as in Panay and Cebu (places in the Visayas), there is no such title as Tujon. The only group that uses the title here is Pekiti Tirsia. JAMES "Wieneke, Myron" wrote: Literal translation Guro - teacher Masguro - this is a weird one, don't believe it's a real work, looks like some sort of weird conjungation. Anyway, when you put mas in front of an adjective, you increase the level of what its describing (ie superlative adjective). Example, marunong (smart or knowledgeable), masmarunong (smarter or more knowledgeable), pinakamarunong (smartest or most knowledgeable). I'm guessing it some sort of extension of this to describe a better teacher. Tuhon - not really sure, outside of FMA, I vaguely remember hearing it before but can't put my finger on the exact meaning. Regards, Myron -----Original Message----- From: rterry@idiom.com [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 3:50 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon > Can anyone tell me the difference between guru,massguru and tuhon. Guro/Guru = I like titles Masguro = I love titles Tuhon = Lordy, how I love titles :) > and how can you tell if the title is real or self promotion? Very difficult. > I have found in the karate field that most people calling > themselves master are usually not. Often very true. > Also any body have any information on massguru greg alland. Nothing good to say.. GrandMaster/Sensei/Guro/Datu Ray Terry :) rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 04:13:58 +0100 (BST) From: John Chow To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re 'Mas' 'Tuhon' ' Pak' titels of senior guros Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hello, re titles of martial arts teachers - senior gurus/guros. There are so many joining of profound Asian words together to form new even more profound words in the West. Since somebody mentioned enquirying from somebody who speaks or comes from a region that speaks Bahasa Malaysia/Indonesia, I guess I volunteer. And Mr. Shin of Sarawak, please put your hand up! I am not a qualified academic lingfuist, so my Bahasa is limited to what I know and speak. I was born in Sabah which was formerly called 'British North Borneo'. It is in a region sandwiched by maysia, Indonesia, and Philippines, all of which claim Sabah as their territory. We have many Indonesians and Filipinos in Sabah. Many descendents of the royal families of the Sultanate of Sulu still resided in my hometown. I was practically brought up by Indonesian maids. Therefore, I speak more Kalimantan Indonesian accent than Malaysian. 'Mas' is usually used by Indonesians as a respectful, and yet fond term to call somebody who you regard, or wishes to be regarded as a peer or brother. Perhaps a person of knowledge but who is humble and does not wish to be referred to as 'guru'. For example, I call a Javanese mystic friend of mine 'Mas Wit' instead of 'Pak Wit'. He is very humble and does not wish to be known as a master of Islamic mysticism. However, I have never heard it appended to another honoric term of address such as 'Mas Guru' or 'Mas Pak' or 'Mas Tuhon'. It may not be liguistically correct. Of course, the Malays and Indonesians may smile and say it is alright, whatever you want is okay. That is courtesy and politeness. It may not be correct, but they tolerate a foriegner for small mistakes in language. I note that 'Mas' in this context of addressing another person does not refer to a Master. It is not short form for 'Master'. Not to my knowledge anyway. And it is a nice, fond and humble and peer-to-peer designation. To append it to a higher disignation such as 'Mas Guru' may possibly be contradictory. If I understand the usage of 'Mas Guru' in the West mean a higher level of guru, then it is probably linguistically contradictory. 'Tuhon' or 'Tuhan' means slightly different things depending on usage. It actually means God in Bahasa Malaysia. "Tuhan tahu semua barang". means "God knows all things". In this context, 'Tuhan' is also referred to as 'Lord', but not as lord in the House of Lords (British parliament), and not as something like a duke, earl, baron or rajah. It is still the religious meaning - God. Therefore, in common usage, 'Tuhan' in Malaysia means 'God', so please do not introduce yourself as 'Tuhan' when you are in Malaysia. You get smiles ................. 'Tuan' in Malaysia, and maybe Indonesia, means 'Mister' or 'Boss'. for example, 'Tuan John Smith'. It is a polite and respectful form of address, just as 'Mister' is in the English language. I am not sure whether 'Tuan' is a short form od 'Tuhan', as some suggest. If it is, then it is a step down from 'God the Almighty, our Lord' to refer to somebody of power and influence. However, I suspect it is not a short form of 'Tuhan' because there is a female equivalent - 'Puan'. We can not say that 'Puan' is a short form of 'Puhan' because there is no such word as 'Puhan'! We do not refer to our Lord God as 'Puhan'! The villagers may get upset ......... and we have a fatwah issued for heresy - be careful. 'Tuan' means 'boss' in the employment context. Or somebody higher in rank, privilege, power or status. Your servant will always call you 'Tuan' because you are the boss. If you are a manager, you will be addressed by employees and many others as 'Tuan'. If you are a rich person, you are likely to be addressed and implored by many as 'Tuan'. If you are the owner of a big plantation or a big company, you are the 'Tuan'. In this context, 'Tuan' is a boss, person of power and influence, and a controller. This is perhaps where the idea that 'Tuan' means 'Lord' came from in previous discussions in the Eskrima circles. In Malaysia, we properly distinguish between pronoucing 'Tuan' and 'Tuhan'. ' Tuhan' is pronounced "Tu" "Han". It is 2 syllables. 'Tuan' is pronounced 'Tuan' in a single syllable. Since the distinction in pronounciation is very clear, you can't make a mistake between these two words. I am not so sure in Philippines. Maybe 'Tuhan' has the meaning of a lord or high chief. ??? 'Pak' is short form for either 'Bapak' or 'Pak Chik' which means 'father' and 'uncle' respectively. It is a generic Asian custom to call one's elders 'uncle' or 'aunty' even if they are not your blood uncles or aunties. We are trained since childhood to do that. It is considered very rude for children to call elders by their names. And to be more polite and respectful, the term 'Pak' is used because it means usually your father's elder brother (as far as I know, but I could be wrong). Therefore, it is very respectful. So, in this addressing context, 'Pak' does not mean father - you do not go around calling every elder man your father - that is an insult to your own father! "You useless child - I am your father so why you call all other men your father? Is your mother a slut who sleeps around with all these men?" Get the drift? In this context, 'Pak' is more like 'uncle'. Therefore, we address an elder, especially one we respect, as 'Pak'. This was the old tradition, as I knew as a small boy. In this context, the old tradition is that we address many village elders, medicine men (bomohs or shamans), healers, sorcerers, and silat masters as 'Pak'. However, things have changed, and in the modern business world, we find that the salesperson or market vendors will call almost any male 'Pak'. ha ha ha ha ........... But don;t be too proud that they are calling you 'father' (I myself may wish to think that I have succesfully sown many countless wild oats, but that is a fantasy only). 'Uncle' is more like it. And it is just another addressing term like 'Tuan'. No need to get carried away! As to what titles we should use in Malaysian/Indonesian martial arts, well, normally, we simply call the guru 'Pak'. We will not call them 'Maha Guru' or 'Pendekar' or similar. However, when introducing them to somebody else, we would say. "This is my che'gu (guru) Pak Artha". Very simple! For very prominent gurus, when we refer to them (not addressing them!), we may use 'Maha Guru'. (I am sorry, ........ we still address them simply as 'Pak'. True traditional gurus are very simple people!) The traidional gurus do not use titles. They are the guru, so what? What else do you want? A guru does not need titles, and none is conferred. Titles belong to dignitaries. Nevertheless, the world has changed and many gurus need to distinguish the different levels and abilities of gurus. Maybe we can have certain disignations to provide for this. However, I think we ought to make sure that it is linguistically correct and not just lump certain words together - which Asians may think is a joke. In any case, who needs a title anyway? Just be an eskrimador, and either you are a student or a techer. Well, just my 2 cents worth. I may be wrong. I am just speaking from what I know when brought up in Asia. Warmest regards, John Chow --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. 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