Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 19:33:06 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #119 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Truth (jay de leon) 2. FMA Ttiles Again !! (Jorge Penafiel) 3. Re: Firearms (iPat) 4. Right to be armed...? (Ollie Batts) 5. RE: guru, massguru, tuhon (james jr. sy) 6. Re: guru, massguru, tuhon (iPat) 7. Re: Right to be armed...? (Ray) 8. Truth and point well taken. (gatpuno@aol.com) 9. Weapons and Tuhons (Gilmour, Julian) 10. Re: Weapons and Tuhons (jay de leon) 11. Re: Firearms (Ray) 12. Re: Firearms (Steve Ames) 13. Re: Firearms (Djinji Brown) 14. Re: Weapons and Tuhons (iPat) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2007 21:49:43 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Truth To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hopefully, it should not be hard to distinguish between an academic discourse, a wise crack and trash talking. When in doubt, remember what yo mama told you, "Keep a civil tongue about your head." It is interesting to note that several subsequent posts (John Chow, etc.) point out the distinct relationship between the titles in question and the culture of respect in Asia. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com Ray wrote: > ... Now we are being just a > bunch of bad-mouth Eskrimador, let see it in your skill not how pretty > you can "Trash" someone title. An obvious given. But also recognize a lighthearted response. If one insists in taking it wrong, then we circle back to the given. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:26:10 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] FMA Ttiles Again !! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Goodness sake,,, I thought we're done for good with this "FMA title" thread by now. Enough already have been said positively, sarcastically, scornly, disrespecfully,, but somehow there is always someone out there just itching to touch this sensitive colour of our Art over again. It's Ok to just inquire for sheer curiosity but please let's all be gentlemen warriors in the sense and not be blatant with what is maybe obvious or inappropriate in your estimation with regards specially to this trivial namesake rank titles or special other person in FMA. This just irk's other's feeling and esteem. We know how it is in the MA arena, politics, and inviron - let's move on with more meaningful FMA stuff!! By admission compared to other MA systems, FMA by in large is unique, colorful, shows ethnicity/regionalism, astute commercialism, intriguing people, and many more. We are all in this endeavor irregardless of systems and so let's take it for its value and importance. Allow no outsiders to read all these interpersonal negativism and qualms in ED pertaining to what are really minor aspects of our art and yet still bothersome to some. Don't really know why?? FMA titles like product branding is part of establishing business venue. Simply, to some it's nice to do away with these many titles in FMA. Easy to say, but then FMA is different-we don't have to follow MA norms of other countries?? The teacher-student scenario was the old way. Today,,, well I leave that to you to fill the blanks. Last,,Gatpuno Abon Baet excerpts on this thread says it loud and clear. Learn from his wisdom and straight forward words. Surely, knowing him or my GM Bobby Taboada, I don't even dare ask these guys why they have such names or titles. Even though Kamote (sweet yams) are good eating, I don't want then shoving it in my mouth!! Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 08:55:46 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Firearms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net fair point, but it doesnt retract from the point. of course it about those who want to, but the recent incident as we all know was with a law abiding citizen (in the eyes of the legislation when he acquired the weapons). Will i join that concept that all law abiding citizens be armed around the world? No i wont, especially as you cant role model one countries values on another. Should those under a Poll Pot have my support to be armed, no. Should i encourage the Norwegians to have gun rights, no its their issue (or non issue). Theres enough bs here in my neck of the woods to deal with. Ive not said here - you musnt have guns - i responded to a point where someone said that governments shouldn't legislate and pointed out the absurdity of that position. Ive also made the point that just because someone has done a course and owns a firearm and has the 'right' intentions, doesnt necessarily make everything safer, its far too complex than that. On 4/26/07, Ray wrote: > Sorry, but that did not, and does not, imply in any way that everyone should > be armed. One simple counterexample... those that do not wish to be armed > should not be armed. > > Should law abiding citizens around the world have the right to be armed (very > very different from everyone being armed)? Yes, of course. Of that there > is little doubt. > -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 10:11:54 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Right to be armed...? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 'Little doubt' presumably in your mind Ray? Certainly not a sentiment shared by everyone else, especially many government ministers around the world. Again playing Devil's Advocate: If we live in a country where the death penalty no longer exists, surely by allowing ordinary people to walk around armed with handguns, etc., you give them (potentially) the ability to become Judge, Jury and Executioner? Bearing in mind that just about anyone can pull a trigger without knowing if the one they shoot will die or not, or if the bullet may miss, or pass by or through the first person and hit another innocent bystander, and injure or kill them instead. In countries such as the U.K., we have the right to defend ourselves, except that there is requirement not to use more force than is necessary in the circumstances ('minimum force'). Please see: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section5/chapter_d.html#04 Pugil "Should law abiding citizens around the world have the right to be armed (very very different from everyone being armed)? Yes, of course. Of that there is little doubt." Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 03:11:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If that is indeed the origin of the word, then we can say that the title tujon is not a term indigenous to the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) but a product of the continued evolution and mixing of languages. jay de leon wrote: I remember reading somewhere that Tuhon is a derivative of the word tuan, a Malayan or Indonesia word which is term of respect meaning sir or mister, but may also mean master or lord. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com "james jr. sy" wrote: Agree with that, Guro is teacher and is applicable to both male and female genders. The term is not specific to martial arts. Guro is also used for academic teachers here in the Philippines. Although I've come across a Gura in the net which is supposedly for a female teacher. People who had read of it in the Philippines, me included, just laughed. There's no such thing as a gura in the Filipino language. The Tagalog word mas indeed expresses degree of, as in mas gwapo (more handsome). It's more for a comparison of two things. However it would be grammatically inappropriate in Filipino to use mas with guro when used as a title. Mas guro, literally then would be "more teacher." But then Myron's guess is by far the nearest possible, if there is indeed something called massaguru. In the Philippines, there's no massaguru. Guru is different from Guro. Guru I believe is Sanskrit and refers to somebody who is enlightened or someone knowledgeable or with wisdom. Not just sure. I believe that guro and guru became interchangeable when they arrived in the US, especially with martial artists who practice FMA with other arts like Indoensian Silat. Just a theory. Tujon. Here, in Negros Occidental as well as in Panay and Cebu (places in the Visayas), there is no such title as Tujon. The only group that uses the title here is Pekiti Tirsia. JAMES "Wieneke, Myron" wrote: Literal translation Guro - teacher Masguro - this is a weird one, don't believe it's a real work, looks like some sort of weird conjungation. Anyway, when you put mas in front of an adjective, you increase the level of what its describing (ie superlative adjective). Example, marunong (smart or knowledgeable), masmarunong (smarter or more knowledgeable), pinakamarunong (smartest or most knowledgeable). I'm guessing it some sort of extension of this to describe a better teacher. Tuhon - not really sure, outside of FMA, I vaguely remember hearing it before but can't put my finger on the exact meaning. Regards, Myron -----Original Message----- From: rterry@idiom.com [mailto:rterry@idiom.com] Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2007 3:50 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon > Can anyone tell me the difference between guru,massguru and tuhon. Guro/Guru = I like titles Masguro = I love titles Tuhon = Lordy, how I love titles :) > and how can you tell if the title is real or self promotion? Very difficult. > I have found in the karate field that most people calling themselves > master are usually not. Often very true. > Also any body have any information on massguru greg alland. Nothing good to say.. GrandMaster/Sensei/Guro/Datu Ray Terry :) rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ============================================================================== _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 11:20:00 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tuhon McGrath told me the other day that Leo Gaje had to call his teachers at school Tuhon On 4/25/07, jay de leon wrote: > I remember reading somewhere that Tuhon is a derivative of the word tuan, > a Malayan or Indonesia word which is term of respect meaning sir or mister, > but may also mean master or lord. > > Jay de Leon > www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Right to be armed...? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 06:11:39 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > 'Little doubt' presumably in your mind Ray? Certainly not a sentiment shared > by everyone else, especially many government ministers around the world. True. Now consider why that is. In your country and in many others disarming the citizenry occurred because the government was afraid of 'the people', not because the government was looking to reduce crime. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 8 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 09:16:39 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Truth and point well taken. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > ... Now we are being just a > bunch of bad-mouth Eskrimador, let see it in your skill not how pretty > you can "Trash" someone title. An obvious given. But also recognize a lighthearted response. If one insists in taking it wrong, then we circle back to the given. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com Fair enough and point is well taken, thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:28:52 +0100 From: "Gilmour, Julian" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Weapons and Tuhons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all Michael Gallagher commented on my words: "Any chance we can try and keep to sticks and knives and empty hand? - Well, all of the above can be used to kill people without a gun." I'm not at all offended, but this was in no way meant to mean that I felt incapable of killing with any of the above, and I would expect that most on the list have been taught such things. ... As for the title of 'Tuhon', I trained with Tuhon Bill McGrath for 3 hours last night, as he's over in the UK. I wouldn't refer to him as a sweet potato farmer :) Strike from the void Julian ****************************** This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy, disclose or take any action in reliance to it. This e-mail and any attachments have been checked by virus detection software before transmission. You should carry out your own virus checks on the contents of this communication. We accept no liability for any loss or damage which may be caused by software viruses or by interception or interruption of this mail. Unless otherwise indicated, this e-mail has no contractual effect and may only be used for the purpose(s) indicated in it. The statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the Financial Ombudsman Service Ltd. This email has originated from the Financial Ombudsman Service Ltd. South Quay Plaza, 183 Marsh Wall, London E14 9SR, United Kingdom. Registered as a limited company in England and Wales No. 3725015. Registered office as above. ****************************** --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Weapons and Tuhons To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net so Ray was right? he ain't sweet at all? seriously, any details/comments on the training? Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com "Gilmour, Julian" wrote: Hi all Michael Gallagher commented on my words: "Any chance we can try and keep to sticks and knives and empty hand? - Well, all of the above can be used to kill people without a gun." I'm not at all offended, but this was in no way meant to mean that I felt incapable of killing with any of the above, and I would expect that most on the list have been taught such things. ... As for the title of 'Tuhon', I trained with Tuhon Bill McGrath for 3 hours last night, as he's over in the UK. I wouldn't refer to him as a sweet potato farmer :) Strike from the void Julian ****************************** This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and delete this e-mail and any attachment from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you must not copy, disclose or take any action in reliance to it. This e-mail and any attachments have been checked by virus detection software before transmission. You should carry out your own virus checks on the contents of this communication. We accept no liability for any loss or damage which may be caused by software viruses or by interception or interruption of this mail. Unless otherwise indicated, this e-mail has no contractual effect and may only be used for the purpose(s) indicated in it. The statements and opinions expressed in this e-mail are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the Financial Ombudsman Service Ltd. This email has originated from the Financial Ombudsman Service Ltd. South Quay Plaza, 183 Marsh Wall, London E14 9SR, United Kingdom. Registered as a limited company in England and Wales No. 3725015. Registered office as above. ****************************** _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 11 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Firearms To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 07:47:05 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > ... Should those under a Poll Pot have my support to be armed, no. But consider that if they had been armed, PP would have been (or at least may have been) overthrown by 'the people'. Ok, I'm stopping now... back to FMA... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 13:41:08 -0400 From: Steve Ames To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Firearms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Thu, Apr 26, 2007 at 07:47:05AM -0700, Ray wrote: > > ... Should those under a Poll Pot have my support to be armed, no. > > But consider that if they had been armed, PP would have been (or at least > may have been) overthrown by 'the people'. If the War on Terrorism has shown us anything its that taking guns/arms away from a people doesn't stop them from being able to kill soldiers. A crackpot could just as easily have build an IED and taken it to Virginia Tech. People kill people, not guns. That means people can kill people without guns also. In the case of PP, lack of guns is an excuse, not a reason. Even without guns I would resist. -Steve --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 12:14:52 -0700 From: Djinji Brown To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Firearms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ive also made the point that just because someone has done a course and owns a firearm and has the 'right' intentions, doesn't necessarily make everything safer, its far too complex than that. ..Exactly.. they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions. This same point can be true of Martial Artist. We train our bodies to become " weapons', that can be used instinctually to survive. so when a conflictt arises , we hope that our 'training' will kick in'. But my question to all of us martial artist is ' how many times have you been enraged about something or someone, and the first thing to come into your mind is what you could do a person? Professional Boxers have to register their hands as 'lethal weapons'. I don't know if this is still true or just popular myth but conceptually it makes sense. Just because our hands can become weapons, it doesnt give us the right to misuse them. Many master/ teachers and students who read this forum are quite adept/ deadly with a blade. They know exactly where and how to cut to cause the most blood loss and injury the fastest way possible. Most gun owners dont have that same control over their firearms, some do but some don't. So my point is that most of us here have been training for years.. to become ' living weapons' Its not about the weapons.. Its about the society we live in , and the problem solving skills we teach our children. Conflict Resolution!!!!!!! "THE PROBLEM SOLVING SKILLS WE TEACH OUR CHILDREN!!!!!.. is what we must be talking about..!!!!!! All these disscussions about the law, we have yet to take responsiblity for the law we live by in our homes. Violence is taught, and learned...I believe this. The Terminator is the Gov of one the biggest voting states in the US, and here in Florida Charles Bronson,( the actor that made being a Vigilante popular on film , in 3 DEATH WISH movies...) is the commissioner of Concealed Weapons or Firearms Licenses. Charleston Heston is one of the lead proponents of the NRA...the list goes on. and last but least the character of Al Pacino's Scarface has become a cultural icon, atleast here in MIAMI, and he kills almost everybody before he meets his demise....These are the images we look to as heroic. Statistics show that here in the states we become desensitized to killings and murders largely due to the television and film industry at a very young age. ...Its about the individual's ability to control him/herself. 'Cries from children that go unheard, can become the shots that are heard around the world!!! RIP to all the victims of VT and all the victims of mass killings that have become a sad part of our American History. On Thursday, April 26, 2007, at 09:00AM, "iPat" wrote: >fair point, but it doesnt retract from the point. of course it about >those who want to, but the recent incident as we all know was with a >law abiding citizen (in the eyes of the legislation when he acquired >the weapons). >Will i join that concept that all law abiding citizens be armed around >the world? No i wont, especially as you cant role model one countries >values on another. Should those under a Poll Pot have my support to be >armed, no. Should i encourage the Norwegians to have gun rights, no >its their issue (or non issue). Theres enough bs here in my neck of >the woods to deal with. >Ive not said here - you musnt have guns - i responded to a point where >someone said that governments shouldn't legislate and pointed out the >absurdity of that position. Ive also made the point that just because >someone has done a course and owns a firearm and has the 'right' >intentions, doesnt necessarily make everything safer, its far too >complex than that. > >On 4/26/07, Ray wrote: >> Sorry, but that did not, and does not, imply in any way that everyone should >> be armed. One simple counterexample... those that do not wish to be armed >> should not be armed. >> >> Should law abiding citizens around the world have the right to be armed (very >> very different from everyone being armed)? Yes, of course. Of that there >> is little doubt. >> >-- >Pat Davies >www.amag.org.uk >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 23:00:52 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Weapons and Tuhons Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Tuesday my students all thoroughly enjoyed it. It was a fairly low level lot that attended so he kept is simple, a lot of empty hand and also some great tapi tapi material. He worked me some knife in the afternoon and that was out of this world. His approach is also worth mentioning. He makes it fun with a capitol F. We'll be making arrangements for his next UK visit soon where seminars will be done in his usual 8 hour format. This was more an introductory tour. On 4/26/07, jay de leon wrote: > so Ray was right? he ain't sweet at all? > > seriously, any details/comments on the training? > > Jay de Leon > www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com > -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest