Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 02:58:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: guru, massguru, tuhon (james jr. sy) 2. Re: guru, massguru, tuhon (iPat) 3. Kali (Ray) 4. Re: Kali (Felipe Jocano) 5. Re: Kali (nephalim1@aim.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 05:25:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I am a Filipino raised as a Filipino.. I reside in the Philippines. I got my education in the Philippines from Filipino professors (University of St. La Salle). I live and am accustomed to the Filipino culture. I have trained in FMA from different Filipino GMs/masters/instructors in Negros and Pamay. i have widely associated with Filipino Arnisadors in Negros and Panay as well as Filipino Eskrimadors from Cebu. i have associated with other Filipino historians/researchers amd practitioners of FMA. I've been documenting FMA in Western Visayas for 12 years now. I have traveled to different places in Negros, Panay, Cebu, and some areas of Manila in search of FMA. I can speak Ilonggo, and some Cebuano. These sir are just some of the reasons why I can say something doesn't exist with firmness and sureness. Arnes (Spanish) - Harness, armor Arnis (Ilonggo/Hiligaynon) - Corruption of the Spanish term, associated with the Filipino weapon arts, synsonymous with baston (sp. cane). The national governing body of FMA in the Philippines is ARNIS Philippines, Inc. Previously, it was the national ARNIS Association of the Philippines (NARAPHIL). Arnsis (Cebuano) - To trip someone. Kali (Ilonggo/Hiligaynon) - To dig, as in "kali kamote" (dig sweet potatoes). Kali (Cebuano) - Same meaning. Kalis, as in Kalisun (Ilonggo/Hiligaynon) and Kalisin (Tagalog) - to scrape, used in daily life, has nothing to do with FMA. Cebuano is spoken in Panay and Negros Occidental while Cebuano is spoken in Cebu, Negros Oriental, and certain areas of Mindanao. Antique in Panay, based on oral tradiition and subsequent modern literature, is supposed to be the place where the 10 Bornean Datus landed. They are credited with bringing "Kali" to the Philippines. But when one goes to Antique (which I did) their term for FMA there is Yaming, not Kali. Even the website of the province of Antique doesn't mention any Kali (http://www.geocities.com/lppsec/pp/antique.htm, http://elgu.ncc.gov.ph/ecommunity/hamtic-antique/). When one goes to Kalibo in Aklan Province, Panay Island, one would discover that the name Kalibo was derived from the phrase "isa KA LIbo" (one thousand), which was the original population of the town. In Dr. Nepangues's and Macachor's book, they had documented their search of Kali. Macachor of Ozamis worked (sales dept.) in Mindanao for several years. There he didn't see any Kali, just Eskrima transported from Cebu. All these are documented in their book, including the truth about Lapu-Lapu, Kalis Ilustrisimo, the blind Princess, etc. Foreigners such as Dr. Mark V. Wiley and Dr. Ronald A. Harris, both of the USA, had conducted their research on the term Kali in the Philippines and their research concur with what the locals had to say. We researchers cum practitioners are also on the look out for other sources worthy of looking into. Other FMAers may know something about the use of different dialects that we Filipinos may not know of. We would be interested to know it. It would help alot, provided it is grounded on solid academic research methodology and not just hearsay/claims. Admittedly, FMA history is clouded in mystery, mysticism, fabricated history, misconceptions, etc. It is only in the modern generation that efforts were made to correct the errors that have been embeded in FMA. It would take a lot of work and alot of debate. But then it is the responsibility of the Filipino people to present to the world what really is, least Filipinos be laughed at as makers and/or people who tolerate falsehoods. Falsehoods that are repeated again and again turn into truth, unless they are corrected. Filipino historian Ambeth Ocampo in his article "Dearth of authentic prehistoric documents" (Nov. 13, 2001 Philippine Daily Inquirer) said, "In Philippine historiography we have a different kind of situation that gave rise to hoaxes. Excessive nationalism has led many historians in search of historical documents written in the pre-Spanish times. further, there were attempts to authenticate their claims by revealing some records/manuscripts which even fooled the scholars who desperately seek for a pre-colonial philippine document, they were competing collectors blinded by the thrill of the chase." People may react to the message and go after the messanger. But then the messenger is just the link and the message is for all to see regardless if not all will believe. The issue at hand is the REAL HISTORICAL VALUE OF THE TERM, not the EFFECTIVENESS OF ANY ART called Kali. In the end people may agree to disagree. What's important is the truth has been laid down. JAMES SY JR. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. iPat wrote: yet we have already established through certain recounts that in one dialect terms were used that werent used by others. To say something didnt exist is somewhat perilous in the FMA! On 4/27/07, james jr. sy wrote: > Correct, FMA was not yet called Arnis before the Spaniards set foot in the Philippines. And neither was it called Kali. > > This issue is discussed in the book Cebuano Escrima: Beyond the Myth by Dr. Ned R. Nepangue and Celestino Macachor. It did a good job in discussing the historical and technical evolution of the FMA, including its foreign influences, myths, and misconceptions. It is available online thropugh Xlibris. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:30:35 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i dont denounce any of the previous hard work or your qualifications. very impressive. Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group. Did they make it up? And should the term be preserved by their students in honour of their instructors? If people dont like the 'americanisation' of the term why tolerate the 'spanishisation' of the term? Ultimately, this annual debate continues, but for me its sort of irrelevent what people want to call it. Its a fine fighting system regardless of name and long may it continue. I continue to use the term in respect to my instructor and his instructors. On 4/29/07, james jr. sy wrote: -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 08:38:42 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US > refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group. Did > they make it up? Did those that created the term Kali perhaps get to the US via Hawaii? Or never really get beyond Hawaii? e.g. Floro Villabrille. Perhaps Kali is really a Hawaiian term, not Filipino. ??? For instance the Hawaiian name/term "Puu o Kali". Just a question, not a statement... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 19:49:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For James, Ray, Pat, etc.; Dan Inosanto recorded in his book a number of terms coming from different languages about the Filipino martial arts, such as kalirongan, pagkalikali, etc. One of the oldest locally published sources here in the Philippines is Placido Yambao's book Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis (Knowledge of the Game/Sport of Arnis is an imperfect attempt at a literal translation). Written in Tagalog in 1957, the book lists some of these terms in Ilocano, Pangasinense, etc. It is quite possible that the manongs who brought the arts over to the US at the turn of the 20th century and for some decades thereafter were still using these terms or variants thereof - but with languages changing the way they do, they no longer appear to be widely used, if at all. There would seem to be a span of time covering the manongs in Inosanto's book and the sources for Yambao's book during which these terms were still known among a particular group of people. After them - who knows? Many factors play a role in the change of language. For one, the imposition of a standardized national language affects the way local languages are spoken. In some areas, words begin to disappear from everyday use as a result. These may account for why kali and its related cognates may no longer exist in many local Philippine languages. One thing is for sure: Yambao's use of the term kali has had an effect on the way an entire generation of FMAers viewed their art. How it impacted them has not been fully examined. Additional note: The late William Henry Scott, in his posthumously published book Barangay, noted that the early Visayan word for sword was kalis. This was based on the dictionaries compiled by the early Spanish frailes who accompanied the conquistadores on their arrival. Scott did a lot of archival research on the original Spanish documents in writing Barangay. The mention of kalis as sword appears in the chapter on Visayan weaponry and warfare. Others have pointed out the similarities between kalis (early Visayan) and kris/keris (Malay) (sorry no citations available: Translation - I remember reading it somewhere, forgot where. Argh.). Linguistically, there were many similarities between the Philippine languages and Malay during the time of the Spaniards. Modern Philippine languages and modern Bahasa Indonesia/Malay have of course changed over time given historical and cultural circumstances, but some traces still remain. Bot --- Ray wrote: > > Yet many who moved in the early part of the last > century to the US > > refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a > significant group. Did > > they make it up? > > Did those that created the term Kali perhaps get to > the US via Hawaii? > Or never really get beyond Hawaii? e.g. Floro > Villabrille. > > Perhaps Kali is really a Hawaiian term, not > Filipino. ??? For instance > the Hawaiian name/term "Puu o Kali". > > Just a question, not a statement... > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 22:39:04 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If readers want to know how the word kali came about, the explanation will not come from the masters who use kali as part of their system's name. The heads of these systems have not put enough time and research to find out how the word kali became attached to the Filipino martial arts. The Founder of Pananandata, the most published practitioner of the Filipino martial arts, Amante P. Marinas Sr., referred to as "PO" by his students and martial arts friends wrote an article titled "Kali: Where Did It Come From?" The article appeared in the June 2005 issue of Inside Kungfu. It explains in detail how the word kali became associated with the Filipino martial arts. It is a must reading for serious students of the Filipino martial arts. (This article is an abridged version of a longer discourse on the subject in an unpublished manuscript which PO wrote back in 1983. The manuscript was supposed to be published by CFW Enterprises but never saw print.) The reader might be interested to know that PO has written 10 books the latest of which is The Art of Throwing published by Tuttle Publishing which came out January 2007. His 11th book which he co-authored with his son, on Balisong Openings, is scheduled for publication this year (2007) by Action Pursuit Group publisher of Inside Kungfu magazine.Two other books he co-authored (his 12th and 13th) are scheduled for release sometime in 2008. Jose ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest