Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 02:58:31 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #124 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: EU/UK Weapons Law (iPat) 2. Re: kali (ken jo) 3. Kali (Balintawak Arnis) 4. Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. 2007 Portland Sera Workshop (John Bonifazio) 6. Got sword? (William MacLaren) 7. 2007 Portland Sera Workshop addition - Bud Thompson (John Bonifazio) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:53:10 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] EU/UK Weapons Law Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ollies views do not necesserily mirror everyone elses views btw. knife crime has increased dramatically in the 17-18 year old group and it is inextricably linked to poverty. it isnt the rich kids stabbing each other. tackling poverty may be one of the best approaches to stopping violence. A report by the bbc is avialable on podcast: http://www.bbc.co.uk/fivelive/programmes/fivelivereport.shtml >From the Times: However, it is also clear that knife crime - as gun crime - is not evenly spread. Taking out the knife violence which occurs in the home in domestic attacks, the pattern of "public" knife violence shows, in the words of a report from the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies at King's College, London: "Knife, like other violent crime, is suffered most by the young, the poor and the black and ethnic minority communities." .... Guns are more difficult for youngsters to obtain. Wonder what the cost is of a knife or gun incident? Police, Paramedics....etc If a car crash can cost upto £1m (as i pointed out in a recent post) would a death by knife/gun be much less or more. Life aint cheap! Who pays and should therefore a government try to deal with the matter with its 'duty of care' as well as financial implications? Its easy to simply bemoan govt behaviour and also taxes without providing a basic model which gives alternatives. On 4/24/07, Ollie Batts wrote: > Anything that could be construed as being designed or modified to be used as > a potentially offensive weapon may not be legally carried on UK streets. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 07:12:18 -0700 (PDT) From: ken jo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net greetings! I respect the opinions and some of the facts and stories that Mr. Celestino C. Macachor and Ned Nepangue M.D. presented in their individual papers though this does not necessarily mean that I agree with them.. in mindanao, the land where i was born, where i grew up and the land that i love, we have friends among the Muslims and they have informed us that the TAUSUG term for their bladed weapons is indeed KALIS. (fyi: the TAUSUGs are the most feared warrior tribe among Muslim Filipinos - Nur Misuari, ARMM Governor Parouk Hussin and Basilan Governor Wahab Akbar are some of the noteworthy Tausug personalities). Most of the Tausugs are based in Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-tawi. In the Philippine military/para-military [Armed Forces of the Philippines, ROTC, CMT/CAT, etc.], the term for the ceremonial saber or any other bladed weapon/sword is KALIS.. [Saludo Kalis! (Salute with the Sword/Saber!)- or words to that effect..] [[fyi: Placido Yambao wrote Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis in 1957 – first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA). According to Bot Jocano (2004): “It is probably this book that is the source of many of the history sections of most arnis books available in the market today. This material is found in the chapter entitled “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” and what was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book. Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI during the early years of the Spanish conquest. In particular, mention is made of the arrival of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or chieftains and their followers. Legazpi’s reaction to those demonstrations is presented in the following: Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na “ang KALI ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa sarili sa larangan ng digmaan” (p.10) (Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not only a game and a measure of passing time but also an effective art of self-protection in the realm of warfare".)” ]] about that book and its author - the controversial piece “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” (actually an introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was the first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the UP Diliman Library.. now as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year. ang matagal ko nang gustong itanong noon pa.. ano po ba ang istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao noon at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang terminolohiyang "kali" sa panahong 1957? -- sa japan kasi, 1936 lang naging "official Japanese term" yung word na karate -- to cite (got this somewhere): In 1936, at nearly 70 years of age, Funakoshi Gichin opened his own training hall. The decision of Funakoshi Gichin to change the kanji used for writing the name of the art – “karate” was confirmed at the so-called “Meeting of the Masters”, which included Chojun Miyagi, Chomo Hanashiro, Kentsu Yabu, Chotoku Kyan, Genwa Nakasone, Choshin Chibana, Choryo Maeshiro and Shinpan Shiroma. Gichin did this to get karate accepted by the Japanese budo organisation Dai Nippon Butokukai . In a time of rising Japanese nationalism (Japan was occupying China), Funakoshi knew that a ‘foreign’ art would not be accepted. Thus this body agreed to change the original kanji which meant “Tang hand” from the Chinese Tang dynasty or by extension, “Chinese hand” – reflecting the Chinese influence on the style to the current way of writing which means “empty hand” – karate-do – thus meaning “the way of the empty hand.” ..anyway just curious if this had an effect on how our early manongs viewed the word "kali".. peace to all! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Balintawak Arnis" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:24:18 -0400 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Speaking for myself, the debate is entirely relevant and needed. Lack of documentation, over-reliance on oral accounts, and, frankly speaking, revisionist history makes Filipino history in general controversial enough to warrant discussion. I agree with James Sy's statement "the issue at hand is the real historical value of the term, not the effectiveness of any art called Kali". Likewise, I agree with Pat Davies statement "its [sic] a fine fighting system regardless of name.". The primary controversy over the use of the name "kali" seems not to be that it's not "native" or effective. Arnis and escrima/eskrima/esgrima are accepted names that are clearly linked to the Spanish language. Nobody that I'm aware of questions the legitimacy or use of them. They are accepted because we generally know the origin of them. We know them for what they are. Contrast that with "kali", which in many circles is being passed around as "the original", "the precursor", "the native" art, when there simply doesn't appear to be enough historical evidence at this time to support the origin of the word, much less the mentioned claims. Therein lies the controversy. Pat puts forth "...many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US refferred [sic] to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group. Did they make it up?". That indeed is the issue and lingering question. Nobody seems to have heard of the word until, as Pat states, "the early part of the last century". When attempts are made to trace the origin of the term, the trail appears to go cold somewhere over the Pacific Ocean. I don't think many people would care the less if the term "kali" was a derivative of another word or simply a name that someone coined to give their art when they emigrated to the U.S. However, claims are being made about the origin of the term and art that do not appear to be standing up very well to scrutiny. I believe that continued examination and academic discussion of the origin of the term "kali" serves the public interest. The public in this case being the FMA community, with the interests being historical accuracy and cultural identity, which go straight to the credibility of the aforementioned claims. For the record, I'm "kali-neutral". None of it makes any day-to-day difference to me. I have no agenda nor am I at all interested in disparaging anyone's system or beliefs. My interest in the matter is purely academic. Regards, Robert Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2007 14:30:35 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i dont denounce any of the previous hard work or your qualifications. very impressive. Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group. Did they make it up? And should the term be preserved by their students in honour of their instructors? If people dont like the 'americanisation' of the term why tolerate the 'spanishisation' of the term? Ultimately, this annual debate continues, but for me its sort of irrelevent what people want to call it. Its a fine fighting system regardless of name and long may it continue. I continue to use the term in respect to my instructor and his instructors. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 12:20:16 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wrote an article on the origin of the word kali in the June 2005 issue of Inside Kungfu. In my article I traced the origin of the word kalisin to kali. However, James Sy said the word kalisin has nothing to do with the FMA. I would not fault Mr. Sy for not knowing the relationship between the two words. Even heads of systems such as Ben Largusa couldn't explain the origin of the word kali. Chris (Sayoc Kali) couldn't explain it either. So does Kali Illustrisimo. None among those who use the word kali as part of their system's name could explain the word kali. They had at best theories that does not do anything but wing an explanation. I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew originated from Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and Sanskrit words back in 1898.) Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali. Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation is usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, Mr. Sy couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship. When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) layers of defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This should be explanation enough. Mr. Sy mentioned a few names of teachers in his email. I was a former professor and board reviewer in Chemical Engineering at Adamson University in Manila from 1963 to 1973. Tagalog is my dialect. I speak both literary and contemporary Tagalog. Best regards to all EDer's APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 4/30/2007 6:02:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Kalis, as in Kalisun (Ilonggo/Hiligaynon) and Kalisin (Tagalog) - to scrape, used in daily life, has nothing to do with FMA. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 11:30:08 -0700 (PDT) From: John Bonifazio To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 2007 Portland Sera Workshop Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 2007 Portland Sera Workshop Who: Guru Stevan Plinck Where: A Place To Shoot 904 N Hayden Meadows Dr. Portland, OR 97217 (503) 283-1995 When: June 22 Informal get together TBD June 23 9:00AM - 4:00PM June 23 10:00AM - 4:00PM Cost: $135 (includes both days) Please try to pre-pay to allow more training time Payment: Those who can please pay Guru directly. or Send check, money order, or cashier’s check payable to Stevan Plinck PO Box 772 Carlsborg WA, 98324 What to bring: Typical MA training gear, and friendly attitute More details to follow as event draws near __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "William MacLaren" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 17:39:49 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Got sword? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net All, I recently got back into FMA and am studying with PG Myrlino Hufana in Bellevue, WA.  This has inspired me to share with everyone a wonderful source for our those sharpies we all love to work with. I have been a practicing martial artist since age 16 and have come to know a great person and quailty sword and knife maker whose name is Angus Trim.  I am letting my fellow FMA'ers know about him since they may not have been exposed to his work. He has a few web resources out and I will post links below.  His new Tactical Line is very nice and I have found them to be very good for FMA.  Check out the knives too. http://www.angustrimdirect.com/ http://www.angustrimdirect.com/modelhome.htm  He also has a more WMA (Western Martial Arts) focused line which have gotten great reviews and his reputation as a honest and talented "sword builder" is very well known on the SFI Sword Forum International forum. http://www.swordforum.com/  I own the white handled WillowLeaf Saber shown under this Tactical line and near the bottom and love it.  This simple and universal design, with backedge and saber style blade is really effective. I hope you check his site out and find his products to be everybit as impressive as I have. Respectfully and sincerely, Will MacLaren     ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download Messenger. Join the i’m Initiative. Help make a difference today. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2007 18:43:32 -0700 (PDT) From: John Bonifazio To: serak@yahoogroups.com, silatworld@yahoogroups.com, eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 2007 Portland Sera Workshop addition - Bud Thompson Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just added: Sifu/Guru Bud Thompson will be Guru Plinck's guest instructor at the 2007 Portland Sera Workshop. June 23-24, 2007 A Place To Shoot Portland, OR Saturday 9:00AM - 4:00PM Sunday 10:00AM - 4:00PM Only $130 for both days >From CA, and one of Bruce Lee's students. If you are not familiar with Sifu/Guru Thompson you can read his autobiography at www.kalijkd.com. Don't miss this rare training event! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest