Date: Tue, 01 May 2007 19:43:08 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #125 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kali-ikot and History (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Virginia 'kali' info (iPat) 3. to 'F' or 'Ph' (iPat) 4. Serrada Eskrima Lineage (John Montes) 5. RE: to 'F' or 'Ph' (Wieneke, Myron) 6. Re: Serrada Eskrima Lineage (Ray) 7. Guru, masguru, James Sy (Pananandta@aol.com) 8. Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) (RJ Garcia) 9. Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) (Felipe Jocano) 10. Re: Serrada Eskrima Lineage (Felipe Jocano) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:35:33 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali-ikot and History Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, here we go again, on the Kali term. We discuss this long ago, but somehow we still wanted to clarify thing that on our way. Its too late no matter what we do "Kali" now is widely accepted term as FMA around the world. How can we dispute that huh? Okay, if our history is is not corrupted of foreign writer and the mis-guided by so called Filipino writers or the early geniuses, up to now we probably know what is it the truth about Filipino peple and its culture. No one can save this now, the Aborigins are now corrupted by media and hipotized by the modern belief. There is no way to save the old tradition and the old culture of the true Filipino. We Filipino ourselves cant even agree to one simple thing, more the other racial group that will not easily for us to agree. I love being Filipino in and out, I would die as Filipino. But I cant change a things or even smooth it out the dented history of our culture, what done is done. On the beginning of the discussion of the Kali term, I alreasdy attack them and tried to dispute this term "Kali" as Filipino Martial Arts. To tell you honestly the problem is not the term, the problem is us, we can get one solid inofrmation of what its really the truth. There is no truth, and there is no way to really find the real name of the first ever or the mother of all mother of Filipino Martial Arts. There only one certain to me, there is Filipino Martial Arts and really does not matter what we call them, it ours, it our pride to claim this art is beautiful, effective, economical and really scientifically tested in real battle ground from the first Filipino Groups and up to this day. I am solid Tagalog and in our native toungue "Kalis" has two meaning. Check and look it up in our Tagalog dictionary, kalis means bolo or long bladed weapon, and the other meaning is adopted word from Spanish, Chalis(we Filipino call this kalis) meaning cup that the Priest used to drink his wime during remembering the last supper of Jesus and his Apostles before his crucifixion. Now "Kalis" is also means scrape, and to scrapes means "kalisin". So it is more that exist that we thnik it is not to our own dictionary. Now in recent term, I really dont have a problem calling their arts "Kali" I always have doubt that this is the Mother of all mother of all FMA. As written in the book of Yambao, Mirafuerte said is called different term in different dialect. Therefore not to assumed or event insert that your term "Kali" is the mother arts, this is claiming that the another arts is only branches from "Kali" this is uncertain and no ground of acceptance to most Filipino. It is easy to say, but do you really know that is the mother arts? To call this mother art, you should know who really scientifically study this before it become on systematic fighting arts. Okay, everyone claimed the Ten Datus who landed to Panay, then later two or more Datus landed in Bon-bon now called Batangas, right here I am already confused to the History. Remember Batangas and Laguna is one strip of land only and remember the Laguna Copper plate they found in Lumban, Laguna river. This piece of history set back to 900AD. We have our language, writing, and even rules. The copperplate is signed and incripted as valuable document to the ruler of Tondo. Meaning before the Ten Datu Landed to the Philippines we have already group people living with government structured already. So this is might be another false claimed. Remember as the history claimed that the Ten Datus bought the island of Panay from the Atis, specifically said Island of Panay, but later Datu Puti, accopanied the other Datu to the other Island. It really dont make sense to me, that the Atis of Panay is the original owner of the Philippines. As written in our history that our island is already has existence of Aetas from Jolo to Aparri. This alone is contradict, not clearly written how this other Datu feels when they bought the land from Atis of Panay then all of sudden the other island is part of the what they purchased from the Atis of Panay? Its something wrong, dont you think?. Now, tell me do you really beleived that this is what really happen. To me this is not clear at all, my History Teacher cannot really give me a straight answer to this history. Now let me go back to the "Kali" I know we dont know this word before and only now you know. Then I thnik is time to put it on rest, and accepted that this is the new term the world accepted as other name for Filipino Martial Arts. I totally agree to the writer that is not the term we knows, but for the clarification purposes, your free to voice your opinion, but also accepted wether we like it or not that this is now a world re-known term for the FMA. As I said, earlier the only problem that I have the so called claimed "The mother of all mother of Filipino martial Arts". In regards of your claimed about ROTC/CMT, I was rank Colonel in CMT (Citizen Army Training) and 1st Leutenant in ROTC(Reserved Officer Training Course), 1982 Eastern Laguna Colleges. I havent used Pugay Kalis, is this term now they used? I used Pugay Sandata or Espada during my time. Also when I was in Army training in Capinpin, Rizal I havent heard the "Pugay Kalis" term, oh! anyway we used English in Philippine Army, I forgot. I closing, I am thankful that this two author is give me a strong feeling about my term that I used as FMA. My school is named P.A.E.T.E. (Paaralan ng Arnis Estokada at Tradisyunal Eskrima) beside being the name of my hometown. As both claimed this is also the three term used in Visaya. For the records, Arnis, Eskrima, Estokada is the national accepted term by Filipino, and in Laguna this three term is widely alternately used by all Laguna practitioner and we call the Baston(spanish term for cane) Burokil or brokil for stick or wooded carved like swords . Remember we have many styles and GMasters in Laguna but all of them is a friends of the Garimot System of Arnis. We stand to what we believed that the secret of the Garimot family, and my purposed of being here is the same, I want be friends with all of you. Remember I want to lea rn from all of you too. Okay, I call this topic as "Kali-ikot" becaused few days from now this topic will be gone and it will come back again. As long as we learned positive results on this discussion, let it comes and dont be affraid if you have a better opinion even your are not native Filipino, I have to admit, I learned a lot from all of you by being in sidelines watching the discussion goes by. Okay hoping my two cent worth contribution may help others too. Gumagalang( with respect), Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA _www.garimot.com_ (http://www.garimot.com) I respect the opinions and some of the facts and stories that Mr. Celestino C. Macachor and Ned Nepangue M.D. presented in their individual papers though this does not necessarily mean that I agree with them.. in mindanao, the land where i was born, where i grew up and the land that i love, we have friends among the Muslims and they have informed us that the TAUSUG term for their bladed weapons is indeed KALIS. (fyi: the TAUSUGs are the most feared warrior tribe among Muslim Filipinos - Nur Misuari, ARMM Governor Parouk Hussin and Basilan Governor Wahab Akbar are some of the noteworthy Tausug personalities). Most of the Tausugs are based in Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-tawi. In the Philippine military/para-military [Armed Forces of the Philippines, ROTC, CMT/CAT, etc.], the term for the ceremonial saber or any other bladed weapon/sword is KALIS.. [Saludo Kalis! (Salute with the Sword/Saber!)- or words to that effect..] [[fyi: Placido Yambao wrote Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis in 1957 – first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA). According to Bot Jocano (2004): “It is probably this book that is the source of many of the history sections of most arnis books available in the market today. This material is found in the chapter entitled “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” and what was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book. Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI during the early years of the Spanish conquest. In particular, mention is made of the arrival of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or chieftains and their followers. Legazpi’s reaction to those demonstrations is presented in the following: Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na “ang KALI ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa sarili sa larangan ng digmaan” (p.10) (Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not only a game and a measure of passing time but also an effective art of self-protection in the realm of warfare".)” ]] about that book and its author - the controversial piece “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” (actually an introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was the first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the UP Diliman Library.. now as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:43:26 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Virginia 'kali' info Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net This didnt seem to go through a while back so ill send it again: Norris Domangue is an Instructor under Guro Inosanto., Tuhon Gaje and McFann. A former wrestling champ and a big hearted guy. http://www.eastwindacademy.com/ _______________________________________________ Hello, Any body know of a good kali school /person in the Hampton Roads (newport news,hampton,suffolk,norfolk,va beach ) area of Virginia Kevin _______________________________________________ -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:54:03 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] to 'F' or 'Ph' Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just out of curiosity, where did the word Phillipines first happen. Why do we use the F at times? Not looking to cause world war 53 or anything. On 5/1/07, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Hello, here we go again, on the Kali term. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 10:44:56 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Serrada Eskrima Lineage Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, This Kali debate reminds me of the scrutiny and ridicule I've often received when enquiring about the blind princess and the old man of Cebu.. I've received quite an onslaught at times. This has happened to me when discussing Cabales Serrada Eskrima lineage with people from different systems, and especially people from the Philippines. Beyond "debunking" the folk tales, a few mentioned the fact that they had never heard of Felicisimo Dizon calling his system "Serrada" in the Philippines, they considered Angel Cabales' lineage questionable at best, since Dizon's system was widely known as "DeCuerdas." I do wish there was more substantial information regarding this system. One thing that sticks in my mind is that I had heard that Felicisimo had a son, Boy Dizon, who was also an Eskrimador. I wonder whether he passed his inherited art on, what he called it, is he alive or not, and what other information he might be able to provide.. I've tried doing an internet search but couldn't find any info on him. The only info was from something I read from GM Fred Lazo's biography, which is solely where I heard of him. For those that don't know who Fred Lazo is, he is a former student of Felicisimo Dizon. He also mentions that Dizon's system was called "DeCuerdas." Here's that link: http://www.lakb.net/gmlazo.html Peace, ~John __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Wieneke, Myron" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] to 'F' or 'Ph' Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:40:51 +0100 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The country was named after the King of Spain, King Philip II. The official name is always spelled as Philippines, though in the past some called in Las Islas Filipinas or Filipinas (Spanish spelling). In our native tongue, its also called Pilipinas. The people are called Filipino internationally, but we call ourselves Pilipino (or Pinoy as a slang). If you notice the "F" and "P" are somewhat interchangeable. Funny thing is native speakers also have a tendency to phonetically interchange "F" and "P". There's a fairly common joke amongst us when making fun of this tendency, "Can I Flease have a Fiece of Fafer por my exam" =-)) Not sure if everyone will get this joke, definitely the Pinoys out there would. Hope that helps. Regards, Myron -----Original Message----- From: iPat [mailto:pmdavies@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 12:54 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] to 'F' or 'Ph' Just out of curiosity, where did the word Phillipines first happen. Why do we use the F at times? Not looking to cause world war 53 or anything. On 5/1/07, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Hello, here we go again, on the Kali term. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ============================================================================== --__--__-- Message: 6 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Serrada Eskrima Lineage To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 11:55:05 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > This Kali debate reminds me of the scrutiny and > ridicule I've often received when enquiring about the > blind princess and the old man of Cebu.. Interesting stories, but obviously difficult to prove anything when all you know of someone is "the old man of Cebu". :) Dizon mostly just called his art eskrima. Didn't Dizon spend his last years with family here in the US and ended up dying here, too? In 1984, at the age of 88? I've learned that people frequently tell others what they think they want to hear. e.g. when I first met Cacoy I asked him about Dizon and if he ever met him. He knew I was of that lineage, so his response was "he was the best eskrimador I ever saw". Much later, after he knew me a lot better, I asked him again. Turned out he had never met nor seen Dizon. Dizon was supposed to return to Cebu for a visit years after he moved to Manila. So Cacoy trained hard for that visit has he wanted to "workout" with Dizon. Dizon apparently had a change of plans and never got back to Cebu. The Old Man of San Jose rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 16:45:51 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Guru, masguru, James Sy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Still in reference to the connection between the words "kalisin" and "kali/s". In a previous email I simply stated that a kali man or a FMA man will try to remove (scrape) layers of the enemy's defenses to get to the enemy's body. I would like to elaborate. Consider two protagonists - both armed with a stick and a knife. The first layer of defense is distance. One of the protagonists might just want to walk away - increase the distance between himself and the other. When that distance is breach, one will have to get through the second layer of defense - the stick. If the stick is there, one cannot hope to make contact with the enemy's body. At even closer quarters, there is a third layer of defense - the knife. Hence, one or the other protagonists will have to remove (scrape) three layers of defenses before he can make contact with the enemy's body. Thus, there is a connection between the Tagalog word "kalisin" (to scrape) and the word "kali/s" - for this is exactly the focus of a fight - to remove, to scrape, to overcome the other fighter's defenses layer by layer. Perhaps EDers will refer to my article in the June 2005 issue of Inside Kungfu. My explanation on how the word "kali" became associated with the FMA is not based on the mere translation of a word but in experiencing "kali" - becoming part of it. BW APMarinas Sr. PS We can look at a medieval English castle. Its first line of defense are the archers. The moat of course is another layer of defense. And the drawbridge too. But of course the thick concrete walls is another. In a message dated 5/1/2007 6:03:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) layers of defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This should be explanation enough. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 14:51:57 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Garcia Subject: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I sent this yesterday, but it didn't seem to get through: ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If the term kali is used in respect of one's elders and instructors, then I am all for it. However, as a Filipino living here in Manila, proud of my roots amidst the popularity of foreign influences in our modern culture, I just cannot help but react when I see/hear of things being said about the history and culture of my country that seem to be a bit odd. I have read Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis (roughly, "Knowledge in the Game/Sport of Arnis"), and although this could well be the earliest documentation and the best lead on the term kali, I would have to say that this in itself is still not categorical proof that it was traditionally used here in the Philippines. I believe others in this mailing list would agree when I say that Philippine history as it is commonly known is still plagued by revisionism and exaggerations, starting from the legendary Maragtas and Code of Kalantiaw (folktales and not really law), all the way to the depiction of Andres Bonicfacio brandishing a bolo and wearing bright red pants (artistic renditions and not historical). And with all due respect to Yambao and Mirafuente, they did not offer leads as to where they got the term kali, which leads the trail cold at that end. And to add another anecdote related to this, of the number of of terms listed in Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis ("pagkalikali", "kalirongan", "kaliradman", etc.), it stated that "pagkalikali" was the term used in the Cagayan Valley where the Ibanag reside. My grandmother is a full Ibanag, who grew up in Tuguegarao (capital of Cagayan Valley), and she never heard of the term. When I went there to Tuguegarao last Christmas, I talked with some relatives there, and they do not know of any "pagkalikali", but they do know what arnis is. While I do concede that it is possible that the term existed/exists somewhere else in Cagayan valley, until I happen upon categorical proof of it, I will not subscribe to it. I am not saying that kali as a term related fo FMA should be forgotten. All I am saying is that it needs more investigation, for us to truly know it's place in Philippine history. Like what James Sy said, we do not dispute the effectivity of any kali style. What I am disputing is the assertion of some people that the kali systems we see today are older, purer FMA systems than the arnis or eskrima systems. To my mind, all three terms are equals, and the differences lie in each system, regardless of the term being used. At least, we all are honest about arnis, and eskrima for that matter, being terms that came about in the Spanish colonial period. No one is claiming that arnis or eskrima is more original and older than others. Can we say the same about kali? I mean, we know how legendary the American wild west is for its gunmen and gunfights, but how would an American from Texas feel if a tactical/combat/practical shooting (as in handgun shooting) instructor starts to claim that what he teaches is an original wild west gunfighting system, even if the methodology and terminology that he uses are still exactly the same as what any other practical/sport handgun shooting instructor would teach? What's in a name? Why care about the terms when what we need is effectivity/efficiency? If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org ----- Original Message ---- From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 10:30:35 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon i dont denounce any of the previous hard work or your qualifications. very impressive. Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group. Did they make it up? And should the term be preserved by their students in honour of their instructors? If people dont like the 'americanisation' of the term why tolerate the 'spanishisation' of the term? Ultimately, this annual debate continues, but for me its sort of irrelevent what people want to call it. Its a fine fighting system regardless of name and long may it continue. I continue to use the term in respect to my instructor and his instructors. On 4/29/07, james jr. sy wrote: -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 18:42:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi RJ, I think the reason this horse comes back from the grave every once in a while is because...people are interested in the question about kali/s. I've written elsewhere (Rapid Journal and FMA Digest)about the problems raised by Mirafuente's chapter in Yambao's book. No footnotes, no citations, no references, no idea as to where he got the term kali. On the other hand, I spoke with a senior professor here in the University who told me he had older Ibanag relatives as well, and they spoke of kali as the term used for martial arts. I find this interesting as it may well bolster your point that the term might ne used elsewhere. My friend told me that his relatives came from outside Tuguegarao, so there may be something here. One of the biggest problems with the use of the word kali/s is that there is a tendency to think that the term is the same in times past as it is now. This is something to watch out for, since meanings change over time. No doubt kali now means to dig and kalis means to scrape - and yet in earlier times it meant sword and for some groups, like in GatPUno's citation it still means sword. Thus, both Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor can be said to be both right and wrong. Right in the sense that kali is not used as often today and wrong in that at one time it was used as a term for weapons or skills, and also that meanings have changed so often over time that today's meaning is no longer the same as a hundred, two, three or four hundred years ago. Clearly, if we want to use kali in designating what we do, we have to be specific as to what we mean by the term. BTW, RJ, I agree with you about the (mis)use of the term kali as the purer art. Specifically, it was one time called the mother art of all the Filipino martial arts, and that all the other FMAs are phases or parts of the art, which meant that the master of kali had the complete art...which I think a lot of people will have problems with today. This is going to be another can of worms... Bot --- RJ Garcia wrote: > I sent this yesterday, but it didn't seem to get > through: > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: RJ Garcia > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that > just doesn't seem to really be dead) > > If the term kali is used in respect of one's elders > and instructors, then I am all for it. > > However, as a Filipino living here in Manila, proud > of my roots amidst the popularity of foreign > influences in our modern culture, I just cannot help > but react when I see/hear of things being said about > the history and culture of my country that seem to > be a bit odd. > > I have read Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa > Larong Arnis (roughly, "Knowledge in the Game/Sport > of Arnis"), and although this could well be the > earliest documentation and the best lead on the term > kali, I would have to say that this in itself is > still not categorical proof that it was > traditionally used here in the Philippines. I > believe others in this mailing list would agree when > I say that Philippine history as it is commonly > known is still plagued by revisionism and > exaggerations, starting from the legendary Maragtas > and Code of Kalantiaw (folktales and not really > law), all the way to the depiction of Andres > Bonicfacio brandishing a bolo and wearing bright red > pants (artistic renditions and not historical). And > with all due respect to Yambao and Mirafuente, they > did not offer leads as to where they got the term > kali, which leads the trail cold at that end. > > And to add another anecdote related to this, of the > number of of terms listed in Mga Karunungan sa > Larong Arnis ("pagkalikali", "kalirongan", > "kaliradman", etc.), it stated that "pagkalikali" > was the term used in the Cagayan Valley where the > Ibanag reside. My grandmother is a full Ibanag, who > grew up in Tuguegarao (capital of Cagayan Valley), > and she never heard of the term. When I went there > to Tuguegarao last Christmas, I talked with some > relatives there, and they do not know of any > "pagkalikali", but they do know what arnis is. While > I do concede that it is possible that the term > existed/exists somewhere else in Cagayan valley, > until I happen upon categorical proof of it, I will > not subscribe to it. > > I am not saying that kali as a term related fo FMA > should be forgotten. All I am saying is that it > needs more investigation, for us to truly know it's > place in Philippine history. Like what James Sy > said, we do not dispute the effectivity of any kali > style. What I am disputing is the assertion of some > people that the kali systems we see today are older, > purer FMA systems than the arnis or eskrima systems. > To my mind, all three terms are equals, and the > differences lie in each system, regardless of the > term being used. > > At least, we all are honest about arnis, and eskrima > for that matter, being terms that came about in the > Spanish colonial period. No one is claiming that > arnis or eskrima is more original and older than > others. Can we say the same about kali? > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 18:47:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Serrada Eskrima Lineage To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net John, One of my friends here in Manila mentioned training with, I'm not sure, one of the sons of Dizon (or grandson?). I'll try to contact him and find out more. Seems that the man in question was teaching on the grounds of the PICC (Philippine International Convention Center) every Sunday morning. Bot --- John Montes wrote: > Hi All, > > This Kali debate reminds me of the scrutiny and > ridicule I've often received when enquiring about > the > blind princess and the old man of Cebu.. I've > received > quite an onslaught at times. This has happened to me > when discussing Cabales Serrada Eskrima lineage with > people from different systems, and especially people > from the Philippines. Beyond "debunking" the folk > tales, a few mentioned the fact that they had never > heard of Felicisimo Dizon calling his system > "Serrada" > in the Philippines, they considered Angel Cabales' > lineage questionable at best, since Dizon's system > was > widely known as "DeCuerdas." I do wish there was > more > substantial information regarding this system. One > thing that sticks in my mind is that I had heard > that > Felicisimo had a son, Boy Dizon, who was also an > Eskrimador. I wonder whether he passed his inherited > art on, what he called it, is he alive or not, and > what other information he might be able to provide.. > I've tried doing an internet search but couldn't > find > any info on him. The only info was from something I > read from GM Fred Lazo's biography, which is solely > where I heard of him. For those that don't know who > Fred Lazo is, he is a former student of Felicisimo > Dizon. He also mentions that Dizon's system was > called > "DeCuerdas." > Here's that link: http://www.lakb.net/gmlazo.html > > Peace, > > ~John > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam > protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest