Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 02:58:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #126 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Guru, Mas Guru, Tuhon (bgdebuque) 2. Dizon info (Ray) 3. Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) (Daniel Arola) 4. More Dizon (Ray) 5. Re: Serrada Eskrima Lineage (Ray) 6. Re: Kali (bgdebuque) 7. Re: Kali (bgdebuque) 8. Re: Serrada Eskrima Lineage (John Montes) 9. Inquiry: Sulwan Kali Academy (John Montes) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:02:57 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, Mas Guru, Tuhon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Some useful Bahasa Indonesia translations: Guru - Teacher Mas - Young Man (equivalent of "Senorito" in Spanish) Pak - Elder Man (equivalent of "Senor" in Spanish) Tuhan - God (only Indonesian Christians normally use the term, however - Indonesian Muslims prefer to use "Allah", the Arabic equivalent) Tuan - Lord (historically reserved for foreign colonial masters - one of my former drivers had the strange habit of using the term to address me, to the amusement of other Indonesians) Mas Guru - Young Teacher Pak Guru - Elder Teacher I hope the foregoing helped. > > > > jay de leon wrote: I remember reading somewhere that Tuhon is a > derivative of the word tuan, > > a Malayan or Indonesia word which is term of respect meaning sir or > mister, --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:08:39 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Dizon info Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dizon info direct from Federico Lazo. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com =================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:40:52 EDT Subject: Grandmaster Dizon Info Dear Mr. Terry I had heard GM Dizon say "Tapos ako sa De Cuerdas," meaning he finished or passed De Cuerdas. First I thought that he was referring to the success of passing through the tunnel test because Cuerdas as understood in the Philippines means "a stretched string of a guitar," but it also means a tighten spring which was used in the tunnel of death test. All along I understood that he knows Eskrima that can pass the Tunnel of Death. Dizon is Visayan and Cabales is the same. He probably made it appear that his Eskrima is De Cuerdas to Cabales to indicate the quality of his art and it eventually turned into De Cuerdas. Personally I understood it to be an Eskrima that passed the Tunnel of Death or De Cuerdas tunnel. An Eskrima that can pass the Tunnel test has to be superior. It has been said that people who went through this test prepared their coffin ahead of time because very few passed it. The Legendary story about Dizon mentioned that he passed the test without injury and difficultly, which indicates that his personal expertise on his Eskrima is exceptional. De Cuerdas or any other name if it deals with the stick still is Eskrima. Very Truly Yours, Federico Lazo --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 19:57:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The word, "Kali"....- is my preferred term to name what I practice and share with students and fellow practitioners alike. Although I do appreciate the discussions surrounding the history and myths along with the great debate of the term, I choose not to involve myself in it with others. I just like the term since it is simple and easier to pronounce and today, the word exists as a FMA term to describe a chosen name for a martial method that came from the Philippines. With that said, I can DIG IT! Daniel Arola Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi RJ, I think the reason this horse comes back from the grave every once in a while is because...people are interested in the question about kali/s. I've written elsewhere (Rapid Journal and FMA Digest)about the problems raised by Mirafuente's chapter in Yambao's book. No footnotes, no citations, no references, no idea as to where he got the term kali. On the other hand, I spoke with a senior professor here in the University who told me he had older Ibanag relatives as well, and they spoke of kali as the term used for martial arts. I find this interesting as it may well bolster your point that the term might ne used elsewhere. My friend told me that his relatives came from outside Tuguegarao, so there may be something here. One of the biggest problems with the use of the word kali/s is that there is a tendency to think that the term is the same in times past as it is now. This is something to watch out for, since meanings change over time. No doubt kali now means to dig and kalis means to scrape - and yet in earlier times it meant sword and for some groups, like in GatPUno's citation it still means sword. Thus, both Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor can be said to be both right and wrong. Right in the sense that kali is not used as often today and wrong in that at one time it was used as a term for weapons or skills, and also that meanings have changed so often over time that today's meaning is no longer the same as a hundred, two, three or four hundred years ago. Clearly, if we want to use kali in designating what we do, we have to be specific as to what we mean by the term. BTW, RJ, I agree with you about the (mis)use of the term kali as the purer art. Specifically, it was one time called the mother art of all the Filipino martial arts, and that all the other FMAs are phases or parts of the art, which meant that the master of kali had the complete art...which I think a lot of people will have problems with today. This is going to be another can of worms... Bot --- RJ Garcia wrote: > I sent this yesterday, but it didn't seem to get > through: > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: RJ Garcia > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that > just doesn't seem to really be dead) > > If the term kali is used in respect of one's elders > and instructors, then I am all for it. > > However, as a Filipino living here in Manila, proud > of my roots amidst the popularity of foreign > influences in our modern culture, I just cannot help > but react when I see/hear of things being said about > the history and culture of my country that seem to > be a bit odd. > > I have read Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa > Larong Arnis (roughly, "Knowledge in the Game/Sport > of Arnis"), and although this could well be the > earliest documentation and the best lead on the term > kali, I would have to say that this in itself is > still not categorical proof that it was > traditionally used here in the Philippines. I > believe others in this mailing list would agree when > I say that Philippine history as it is commonly > known is still plagued by revisionism and > exaggerations, starting from the legendary Maragtas > and Code of Kalantiaw (folktales and not really > law), all the way to the depiction of Andres > Bonicfacio brandishing a bolo and wearing bright red > pants (artistic renditions and not historical). And > with all due respect to Yambao and Mirafuente, they > did not offer leads as to where they got the term > kali, which leads the trail cold at that end. > > And to add another anecdote related to this, of the > number of of terms listed in Mga Karunungan sa > Larong Arnis ("pagkalikali", "kalirongan", > "kaliradman", etc.), it stated that "pagkalikali" > was the term used in the Cagayan Valley where the > Ibanag reside. My grandmother is a full Ibanag, who > grew up in Tuguegarao (capital of Cagayan Valley), > and she never heard of the term. When I went there > to Tuguegarao last Christmas, I talked with some > relatives there, and they do not know of any > "pagkalikali", but they do know what arnis is. While > I do concede that it is possible that the term > existed/exists somewhere else in Cagayan valley, > until I happen upon categorical proof of it, I will > not subscribe to it. > > I am not saying that kali as a term related fo FMA > should be forgotten. All I am saying is that it > needs more investigation, for us to truly know it's > place in Philippine history. Like what James Sy > said, we do not dispute the effectivity of any kali > style. What I am disputing is the assertion of some > people that the kali systems we see today are older, > purer FMA systems than the arnis or eskrima systems. > To my mind, all three terms are equals, and the > differences lie in each system, regardless of the > term being used. > > At least, we all are honest about arnis, and eskrima > for that matter, being terms that came about in the > Spanish colonial period. No one is claiming that > arnis or eskrima is more original and older than > others. Can we say the same about kali? > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:18:10 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] More Dizon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Also, FWIW, there is a martial arts instructor here in the US, teaches Kung Fu I believe, named Craig Dizon. He is GM Dizon's grandnephew, as I recall. He only remembers his greatuncle as being an old man here in the US. Craig was just a kid then. GM Dizon didn't do any teaching by this time, but Craig recalled seeing him move a bit. About all he could say was that it looked nothing like Angel's Serrada. He also mentioned that he liked to fight, so the family was always watching the old fellow to make sure he stayed out of trouble... As I say, FWIW. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Serrada Eskrima Lineage To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 20:26:12 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > One of my friends here in Manila mentioned training > with, I'm not sure, one of the sons of Dizon (or > grandson?). I'll try to contact him and find out more. > Seems that the man in question was teaching on the > grounds of the PICC (Philippine International > Convention Center) every Sunday morning. That would be great. It would probably be his grandson or even greatgrandson. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:29:59 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think you are on the right track. It appears that the ancient martial art from South India of Kalaripayattu have spawned several martial arts-based performing arts, all of which have "kali" affixed to it - KOLKALI, VELAKALI, THACHOLIKALI and KATHAKALI. KOLKALI is particularly interesting. According to Wikipedia: "The dance performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress." Kalaripayattu is now highly-suspected as the possible origin of Shaolin Kung Fu. It would not be highly remote that it could also be the origin of the FMA. If that is really the case, the use of "Kali" to refer to the FMA would not be without basis at all. > > I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the > big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian > dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew > originated from > Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and > Sanskrit words back in 1898.) > > Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning > to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali. > > Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation > is > usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, > Mr. Sy > couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship. > > When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) > layers of > defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This should be > explanation enough. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:45:19 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net They should have looked further. To the place where most European, Middle Eastern and Malay languages came from - India. At this very moment, there are several martial-based performing arts in South India which have the phrase "kali" attached to their names. All of them evolved from the South Indian martial arts of Kalaripayattu - probably, also the origin of Shaolin Kung Fu. > > Foreigners such as Dr. Mark V. Wiley and Dr. Ronald A. Harris, both of the > USA, had conducted their research on the term Kali in the Philippines and > their research concur with what the locals had to say. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:27:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Serrada Eskrima Lineage Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Felipe Jocano: Thanks bro that would definitely mean alot to me. One of my great passions is researching FMA's. I'm pretty sure there are a few people who would love to learn more about the Dizon family and their system. I know I would. By the way Ray it's nice to be back after a few years. I lost my email address somehow and along with it, lots of contacts and this subsciption. I always enjoy your intelligence and positivity. I hope this email finds us all in good health and good spirits. Peace, ~John Santa Clara, CA --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:45:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Inquiry: Sulwan Kali Academy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Just wondering if any of you have any information regarding this school? It seems there are a few instructors located locally (Silicon Valley) but when I have attempted to get ahold of them there seems to be no response? All I can assume is that the school is defunct, or it relocated to Hawaii, but the site is still up? From the looks of the curriculum, it seems extremely well-rounded (quoted from site): "Learn the integrated FMA's; Class includes Filipino Style Boxing: Panantukan, Grappling and wrestling: Dumog; Kicking techniques- Pananjakman and Filipino Weapons; Bladed-Kali and Stick/Blade Escrima/Eskrima styles" (1) Sulwan Kali System. < Sulwan Quon's System (2) includes the following style: a. Escrima Methods : Includes Serrada-(Cerado), Decampo, Decuerdas, Sumbrada, Numerado, Toledo and Largo Mano. b. Includes elements and variations of Pananjakman/Sikaran (Low-mid kicking); Dumog (grappling, wrestling) ; Panantukan (Boxing) from the following : *Master Al Santos, *Master Jack Santos, *Master Gilbert Tenio, *Professor John Eliab, *Master Pat Ovalles, and my father *Ray T. Canion. * deceased (3) Quarterly Workshops - Seminar Certifications; Personnel Protection; Safety Measures and Applications teaches "Hands on, defensive tactics & reflex drills to improve your mental & physical ability to handle a violent or unexpected confrontation." (4) Drum Beats from Maranao and Magindanaw Singkil, Selected dance movements derived from the Princess of Maranao. Coming soon- "Kulingtang" February 2007 The site is here: http://www.sulwankali.com Personally, I'd say that's a pretty impressive list of teachers and styles.. I'm even down to learn some Kulintang heh! Peace! ~John --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest