Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 05:58:30 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #127 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) (Felipe Jocano) 2. RE: Inquiry: Sulwan Kali Academy (Stephen Taylor) 3. Re: Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) (Felipe Jocano) 4. F an P's (Ollie Batts) 5. Re: guru, massguru, tuhon (james jr. sy) 6. Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 7. Re: Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 8. Re: Re: kali (james jr. sy) 9. Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 10. Re: Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 00:51:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Daniel; But you've got to admit, every time the horse comes back up again, we get our share of kali-sthenics ;-P , no? some of us get in and groove, others sit back and watch the show ;-) Bot --- Daniel Arola wrote: > The word, "Kali"....- is my preferred term to name > what I practice and share with students and fellow > practitioners alike. Although I do appreciate the > discussions surrounding the history and myths along > with the great debate of the term, I choose not to > involve myself in it with others. I just like the > term since it is simple and easier to pronounce and > today, the word exists as a FMA term to describe a > chosen name for a martial method that came from the > Philippines. > With that said, I can DIG IT! > > Daniel Arola > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Stephen Taylor To: , Leon Rosario Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Inquiry: Sulwan Kali Academy Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 00:57:51 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net While I believe the school itself has relocated to Hawaii, Leon Rosario is still teaching in the San Jose area. You can email him directly at lrkoolaid@aol.comStephen Taylor > Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 21:45:16 -0700> From: eskrimaforlife@yahoo.com> To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net> Subject: [Eskrima] Inquiry: Sulwan Kali Academy> > Hi All,> > Just wondering if any of you have any information regarding this school? > It seems there are a few instructors located locally (Silicon Valley) but when I have attempted to get ahold of them there seems to be no response? All I can assume is that the school is defunct, or it relocated to Hawaii, but the site is still up? From the looks of the curriculum, it seems extremely well-rounded (quoted from site): > > "Learn the integrated FMA's; Class includes Filipino Style Boxing: Panantukan, Grappling and wrestling: Dumog; Kicking techniques- Pananjakman and Filipino Weapons; Bladed-Kali and Stick/Blade Escrima/Eskrima styles"> > (1) Sulwan Kali System. < Sulwan Quon's System> (2) includes the following style: > a. Escrima Methods : Includes Serrada-(Cerado), Decampo, Decuerdas, Sumbrada, Numerado, Toledo and Largo Mano. > b. Includes elements and variations of Pananjakman/Sikaran (Low-mid kicking); Dumog (grappling, wrestling) ; Panantukan (Boxing) from the following : *Master Al Santos, *Master Jack Santos, *Master Gilbert Tenio, *Professor John Eliab, *Master Pat Ovalles, and my father *Ray T. Canion. * deceased > (3) Quarterly Workshops - Seminar Certifications; Personnel Protection; Safety Measures and Applications teaches "Hands on, defensive tactics & reflex drills to improve your mental & physical ability to handle a violent or unexpected confrontation."> > (4) Drum Beats from Maranao and Magindanaw Singkil, Selected dance movements derived from the Princess of Maranao. Coming soon- "Kulingtang" February 2007> > The site is here: http://www.sulwankali.com> > Personally, I'd say that's a pretty impressive list of teachers and styles.. I'm even down to learn some Kulintang heh! > > Peace! > > ~John> > > > ---------------------------------> Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell?> Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos.> _______________________________________________> Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net> Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource> Standard disclaimers apply> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 00:59:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat; In your research into these words and their origins, is there any connection between the word Tausug word kalis meaning sword and the Sanskrit sources you mentioned? Bot --- Pananandta@aol.com wrote: > > > I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - > about 15 years at the > big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored > through Sanskrit and Indian > dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words > that I knew originated from > Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was > written on Tagalog and > Sanskrit words back in 1898.) > > Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations > between kalisin (meaning > to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali. > > Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. > A direct translation is > usually off the mark because something is lost in > between. In his case, Mr. Sy > couldn't see the relationship. Here is the > relationship. > > When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to > remove (scrape) layers of > defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's > body. This should be > explanation enough. > > Mr. Sy mentioned a few names of teachers in his > email. > > I was a former professor and board reviewer in > Chemical Engineering at > Adamson University in Manila from 1963 to 1973. > Tagalog is my dialect. I speak > both literary and contemporary Tagalog. > > Best regards to all EDer's > > APMarinas Sr. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 10:45:37 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] F an P's Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Having spent a fair bit of time around Danny Guba, I can tell you that I certainly can relate fully to, and appreciate the humour in, your post ;o) Pugil There's a fairly common joke amongst us when making fun of this tendency, "Can I Flease have a Fiece of Fafer por my exam" =-)) Not sure if everyone will get this joke, definitely the Pinoys out there would. Hope that helps. Regards, Myron --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 04:37:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] guru, massguru, tuhon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net iPat wrote: "i dont denounce any of the previous hard work or your qualifications. very impressive." I thank you for that good sir. "Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group." It would help alot if you can please name the significant group. In "The Filipino Martial Arts," Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto listed 35 individuals and 2 groups in his lineage. Of these, only 2 individuals and 1 group were associated with the term Kali, namely GM Floro Villabrille and GM Ben Largusa, a student of GM Villabrille and the San Franciso Kali Group. The others were as follows, Master Pedro Apilado - Escrima Pepe Montano Arca - Escrima Vincent Arca - Escroma Richard Bustillo - Escrima Atty. Dionisio Cañete - Escrima The Cañete Brothers - Escrima Master Angel Cabales - Escrima Stockton Escrima Group - Escrima Master Regino Ellustrisimo - Escrima Master Leo Giron - Escrima Master John Lacoste - Escrima Master Pacual Ovales - Escrima Master Braulio Pedoy - Escrima Guro Narrie Babao - Arnis Guro Dentoy Revillar - Escrima Master Jack Santos - Escrima Guro Max Sarmiento - Escrima Master Sam Tendencia - Arnis Guro Gilbert tenio - Escrima "Did they make it up?" The term came from Placido Yambao's book Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis and edited by Buenaventura Mirafuente in 1957. This was the first ever document to have mentioned Kali, which is supposedly ancient in origin. However, there is no bibliography for the work. "And should the term be preserved by their students in honour of their instructors?" Preserving one's teacher's teaching is an obligation of a student. However, it is also our obligation to see to it that we pass on things that have grounding in truth. "If people dont like the 'americanisation' of the term why tolerate the 'spanishisation' of the term?" The Philippines was colonized by the Spaniards for more than 300 years. The Americans have not done the same. The conquered people naturally adopted the culture of their conquestadores. The Spaniards' influence in the evolution of FMA was far reaching in the Philippines. In the US, not all Americans use the term Kali. "Ultimately, this annual debate continues, but for me its sort of irrelevent what people want to call it. Its a fine fighting system regardless of name and long may it continue. I continue to use the term in respect to my instructor and his instructors." Preserving something includes its name, characteristics, etc. The name itself is significant. It’s like a child who has a father. The name of the father is very important. The child can relate to the name and takes pride in looking back to what the name stood for. A child with a father with no name or a questionable name would then be a bastard. But as you have said good sir, after everything is laid on the table, it's to each his own choice. We agree that we don't agree. I would respect your stand on the issue. :) --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 04:39:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In Arnis, Reflections on the History and Development of the Filipino Martial Arts, Dr. Mark V. Wiley wrote, "The term "Kali" was first used by Yambao as a shortened term for many stickfighting arts of the Philippines. The term was next made popular through the late Floro Villabrille's teachings in the United States. Villabrille's art comes from Cebu, and he also trained further in Manila with his uncle, the late Antonio Ilustrisimo, While Villabrille's certificate from the Philippines says "eskrima," he chose to name his personal eskrima style "kali" (and thus likening it to the past, as per Yambao). In the article “History of Arnis/Escrima” in the Cebu-based Black Eagle Escrima website, “Its use in the West stems from the use of the word by Floro Villabrille who used this term to describe his art, and this was eventually popularised by Dan Inosanto.” Ray wrote: > Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US > refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group. Did > they make it up? Did those that created the term Kali perhaps get to the US via Hawaii? Or never really get beyond Hawaii? e.g. Floro Villabrille. Perhaps Kali is really a Hawaiian term, not Filipino. ??? For instance the Hawaiian name/term "Puu o Kali". Just a question, not a statement... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 04:42:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net nephalim1@aim.com wrote: "If readers want to know how the word kali came about, the explanation will not come from the masters who use kali as part of their system's name. The heads of these systems have not put enough time and research to find out how the word kali became attached to the Filipino martial arts." How very true. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 04:52:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It has been established that Kalis is indeed a term for a sword. However, kalis the sword doesn't necessarily translate automatically to kali the art. Many sources associate kali and kalis for the etymology of the word. However, we also have a horde of translations of kali from Kali authorities i.e. God of Destruction, Kamot Lihok, shortened form of Kalimantan (North Borneo), etc. The Tausugs call their bladed weapon kalis, but what do they call their fighting art? According to Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. in his article, "Arnis and the Work of History: A Short Critical Overview" in Vol. 9 No. 2 of Rapid Journal, "Mirafuente's essay on the origin of arnis is worth reading because of its blending of historical, linguistic and literary material. Nevertheless, it also suffers from a serious flaw in that it lacks comprehensive bibliography that would in turn assist future researchers in this area of Philippine history. For example, which vague documents does he refer to in describing the origin of kali? Whom does he consult in quoting from Legaspi’s travels? In which source can we find a reproduction and hopefully a translation of Simon de Anda's 1764 decree? This lack of references mars what is otherwise a well-written essay. At the same time, it provides a point of deprture for future researchers." In the introduction by the publisher of the article Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis by Buenaventura Mirafuente in the Vol. 8 No. 2 of Rapid Journal, "Much of what we know about the history of arnis comes from this book. Although many of the historical events mentioned in this article have not been proven, they have continued to fill the pages of books and articles on Filipino martial arts." Kali is dubbed as the MOTHER of all FMA, that it preceded the arrival of the Spaniards. If that is indeed the case, we will find clues in the Filipino culture as to whether it really existed or not. The Philippines have many arduously long folk epics that tell of the exploits of tribal heroes, the culture of the past, etc. These epics are transmitted orally and are expressed as songs and poetry. These epics, which depict early Filipino life and culture, don't mention any Kali. If it indeed was a pre-Spanish art, it would be impossible for the natives to exclude it in the epics since fighting was a major part of their lives back then. Dr. Ned R. Nepangue of Southwestern University, Cebu in Cebuano Eskrima in the Vol. 5 no. 2 issue of Rapid Journal,, “kali is not a traditional term used by the Cebuanos for their indigenous martial art. The word ‘kaliradman’ is not found in the Cebuano (Visayan) vocabulary contrary to the claims of many authors like Yambao and Draeger.” Warrior/Balitok system founder Grandmaster Abner Pasa, Ph.D., also of Cebu, echoes this belief. Celestino Macachor of Ozamis in New Theories on the Origins of Eskrima Part 3 in the Vol. 6 No. 4 issue of Rapid Journal, “if indeed kali is a very old term and has something to do with warriorship, then everyone must be familiar with it, like the words baraw, tameng, sondang, bangkaw…and it would have imprinted an indelible mark in the collective consciousness of the Visayan people for hundreds of generations.” On the Karate history, that is very correct. That has been established and never questioned by historians. The Japanese are very particular in recording their history of their country, including the martial arts. The same can be said of thw Chinese. Unfortunately, that is not the case in the Philippines, where there's a scarcity of pre-Hispanic records. Back to the Karate note, a similar thing happened in Korea. Post WWII Korea saw the revival of Korean martial arts. But most Kwan (halls) still used terms that are simply Korean readings of the kanji/hanja of Japanese martial arts, like: Tang Soo Do - Original "Tang hand" Karate-do Kong Soo Do - New "Empty hand" Karate-do Yudo - Judo Hapkido - Aikido Kumdo - Kendo Yusul - jujutsu Daedong Ryu- Daito-ryu Ultimately, Koreans adopted Tae Soo Do then later Taekwondo and put in more kicks. But the older Kwan hyung (forms) are clearly of Shotokan Karate origin. Even the late Gen. Choi Hong-Hi, the father of Taekwondo, was a 2nd dan in Shotokan. Of course the Taegeuk and Palgue series in Taekwondo are modern innovations. And lastly, before Karate, there was Shuri-te, Naha-te, and Tomari-te. ken jo wrote: greetings! I respect the opinions and some of the facts and stories that Mr. Celestino C. Macachor and Ned Nepangue M.D. presented in their individual papers though this does not necessarily mean that I agree with them.. in mindanao, the land where i was born, where i grew up and the land that i love, we have friends among the Muslims and they have informed us that the TAUSUG term for their bladed weapons is indeed KALIS. (fyi: the TAUSUGs are the most feared warrior tribe among Muslim Filipinos - Nur Misuari, ARMM Governor Parouk Hussin and Basilan Governor Wahab Akbar are some of the noteworthy Tausug personalities). Most of the Tausugs are based in Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-tawi. In the Philippine military/para-military [Armed Forces of the Philippines, ROTC, CMT/CAT, etc.], the term for the ceremonial saber or any other bladed weapon/sword is KALIS.. [Saludo Kalis! (Salute with the Sword/Saber!)- or words to that effect..] [[fyi: Placido Yambao wrote Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis in 1957 – first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA). According to Bot Jocano (2004): “It is probably this book that is the source of many of the history sections of most arnis books available in the market today. This material is found in the chapter entitled “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” and what was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book. Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI during the early years of the Spanish conquest. In particular, mention is made of the arrival of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or chieftains and their followers. Legazpi’s reaction to those demonstrations is presented in the following: Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na “ang KALI ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa sarili sa larangan ng digmaan” (p.10) (Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not only a game and a measure of passing time but also an effective art of self-protection in the realm of warfare".)” ]] about that book and its author - the controversial piece “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” (actually an introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was the first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the UP Diliman Library.. now as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year. ang matagal ko nang gustong itanong noon pa.. ano po ba ang istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao noon at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang terminolohiyang "kali" sa panahong 1957? -- sa japan kasi, 1936 lang naging "official Japanese term" yung word na karate -- to cite (got this somewhere): In 1936, at nearly 70 years of age, Funakoshi Gichin opened his own training hall. The decision of Funakoshi Gichin to change the kanji used for writing the name of the art – “karate” was confirmed at the so-called “Meeting of the Masters”, which included Chojun Miyagi, Chomo Hanashiro, Kentsu Yabu, Chotoku Kyan, Genwa Nakasone, Choshin Chibana, Choryo Maeshiro and Shinpan Shiroma. Gichin did this to get karate accepted by the Japanese budo organisation Dai Nippon Butokukai . In a time of rising Japanese nationalism (Japan was occupying China), Funakoshi knew that a ‘foreign’ art would not be accepted. Thus this body agreed to change the original kanji which meant “Tang hand” from the Chinese Tang dynasty or by extension, “Chinese hand” – reflecting the Chinese influence on the style to the current way of writing which means “empty hand” – karate-do – thus meaning “the way of the empty hand.” ..anyway just curious if this had an effect on how our early manongs viewed the word "kali".. peace to all! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 05:27:49 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The first recorded use of Kali was Yambao's book in 1957. A friend of mine at the Center for Lasallian Ministries at thew University of st. La Salle (USLS) called to my attention that Florante at Laura by Francisco Balagtas, written in 1831, in verse 223, lone 3, "larong buno't arnes..." This was the first recorded use of Arnis. In "The Filipino Martial Arts," Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto listed 35 individuals and 2 groups in his lineage. Only GM Floro Villabrille and GM Ben Largusa, and the San Franciso Kali Group was associated with Kali. I agree with you sir that at this point, more reasearch is needed to put this issue to rest. I believe Dr. Nepangue and Mr. Macachor had made a big step in this aspect. Their only hope is that someday the truth will be known. On my side, I'm doing my part here in Western Visayas. As far as the coverage of my research is concerned, I have found no credible proof that: 1. Kali was the pre-Hispanic term for FMA. 2. Kali is the oldest term for FMA. 3. Kali is the mother art of all FMA. 4. Kali, the martial art, is embeded and is a part of the Filipino culture and language. 5. Kali is purer than Arnis and Escrima, which are said to be Spanish. 6. Kali is blade based while arnis and escrima are stick based. It is my hope that more Filipinos would take up the challenge and discover their real roots. With historical relevance that is. It is a large work but with several people on it, we will be nearer the truth. Felipe Jocano wrote: For James, Ray, Pat, etc.; Dan Inosanto recorded in his book a number of terms coming from different languages about the Filipino martial arts, such as kalirongan, pagkalikali, etc. One of the oldest locally published sources here in the Philippines is Placido Yambao's book Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis (Knowledge of the Game/Sport of Arnis is an imperfect attempt at a literal translation). Written in Tagalog in 1957, the book lists some of these terms in Ilocano, Pangasinense, etc. It is quite possible that the manongs who brought the arts over to the US at the turn of the 20th century and for some decades thereafter were still using these terms or variants thereof - but with languages changing the way they do, they no longer appear to be widely used, if at all. There would seem to be a span of time covering the manongs in Inosanto's book and the sources for Yambao's book during which these terms were still known among a particular group of people. After them - who knows? Many factors play a role in the change of language. For one, the imposition of a standardized national language affects the way local languages are spoken. In some areas, words begin to disappear from everyday use as a result. These may account for why kali and its related cognates may no longer exist in many local Philippine languages. One thing is for sure: Yambao's use of the term kali has had an effect on the way an entire generation of FMAers viewed their art. How it impacted them has not been fully examined. Additional note: The late William Henry Scott, in his posthumously published book Barangay, noted that the early Visayan word for sword was kalis. This was based on the dictionaries compiled by the early Spanish frailes who accompanied the conquistadores on their arrival. Scott did a lot of archival research on the original Spanish documents in writing Barangay. The mention of kalis as sword appears in the chapter on Visayan weaponry and warfare. Others have pointed out the similarities between kalis (early Visayan) and kris/keris (Malay) (sorry no citations available: Translation - I remember reading it somewhere, forgot where. Argh.). Linguistically, there were many similarities between the Philippine languages and Malay during the time of the Spaniards. Modern Philippine languages and modern Bahasa Indonesia/Malay have of course changed over time given historical and cultural circumstances, but some traces still remain. Bot --- Ray wrote: > > Yet many who moved in the early part of the last > century to the US > > refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a > significant group. Did > > they make it up? > > Did those that created the term Kali perhaps get to > the US via Hawaii? > Or never really get beyond Hawaii? e.g. Floro > Villabrille. > > Perhaps Kali is really a Hawaiian term, not > Filipino. ??? For instance > the Hawaiian name/term "Puu o Kali". > > Just a question, not a statement... > > Ray Terry > rterry@idiom.com > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 05:40:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good sir, I stand corrected on the Tagalog part of Kalisin for I specialize in the Visayan lineages, particularly that of the Ilonggos. But I am sure that the Ilonggo kalison is not in any way associated with FMA in Western Visayas, well at least, up until Grand Tujon Leo Gaje Jr. of Talisay City did the Documentary Kali Means to Scrape. In my 12 years of research in Western Visayas, no grandmaster, master, or instructor of FMA I have met in the cities or in the hinterlands, have attached the Ilonggo term Kalison to FMA. Even GT Gaje have not associated kalison with Kali when we had the chance to talk in way back in 1995. BTW, Kali also means to dig in Kinaray-a, the dialect spoken in Antique, which is the reported place where the 10 Bornean Datus landed, inhabited, and established Bothoans, where Kali was supposedly taught. I would agree with your statement that even heads of systems can't explain the meaning of the word Kali. As Robert said, we need more research on the matter. I myself appreciate the new insight you had shared good sir, which would prove to be useful in my research. This time, outside my sphere of specialization. I have several friends who do a lot of traveling and they gave their word that they’ll try find out what they can about Kali in different parts of the Philippines. Hopefully, when time comes I can include their findings in my research which I will be compiling into a book. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: I wrote an article on the origin of the word kali in the June 2005 issue of Inside Kungfu. In my article I traced the origin of the word kalisin to kali. However, James Sy said the word kalisin has nothing to do with the FMA. I would not fault Mr. Sy for not knowing the relationship between the two words. Even heads of systems such as Ben Largusa couldn't explain the origin of the word kali. Chris (Sayoc Kali) couldn't explain it either. So does Kali Illustrisimo. None among those who use the word kali as part of their system's name could explain the word kali. They had at best theories that does not do anything but wing an explanation. I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew originated from Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and Sanskrit words back in 1898.) Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali. Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation is usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, Mr. Sy couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship. When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) layers of defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This should be explanation enough. Mr. Sy mentioned a few names of teachers in his email. I was a former professor and board reviewer in Chemical Engineering at Adamson University in Manila from 1963 to 1973. Tagalog is my dialect. I speak both literary and contemporary Tagalog. Best regards to all EDer's APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 4/30/2007 6:02:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Kalis, as in Kalisun (Ilonggo/Hiligaynon) and Kalisin (Tagalog) - to scrape, used in daily life, has nothing to do with FMA. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest