Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 13:23:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #128 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: Kali (Wieneke, Myron) 2. Re: Kali-ikot and History (james jr. sy) 3. RE: to 'F' or 'Ph' (james jr. sy) 4. GM Felisicimo Dizon/GM Fred Lazo (gatpuno@aol.com) 5. Re: kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem (Rich Acosta) 6. Kalisin/Kali (gatpuno@aol.com) 7. FMA School around Richmond, VA! (Mdgchlnd@wmconnect.com) 8. Something upon which I can comment (Marc Denny) 9. Re: Sulwan Academy (John Montes) 10. Kali/term (GatPuno@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Wieneke, Myron" To: "'eskrima@martialartsresource.net'" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Kali Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 13:36:14 +0100 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't think I agree with the statement below regarding India. India itself has 23 official languages (not dialects), which one was the mother language that then became the source of all these other varied languages? It is an old civilization, but so are a lot of other Middle Eastern and European civilization. Babylonian/Mesopotamian civilization were already at its high points around 4000 years ago, Egyptian culture dates over 7000 years (Indian culture started 5000 years ago). Also the basis of the European,Middle Eastern and Malay languages are different AFAIK. Most European languages are Latin/Greek based (which again I've never heard or seen of as being "indian" based). As always, there will be a lot of intermingling of influences, but I'd be very interested to hear or read historical studies that say that india was the source of all these old civilization's languages. Just my 2 cents. Regards, Myron -----Original Message----- From: bgdebuque [mailto:bgdebuque@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 11:45 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali They should have looked further. To the place where most European, Middle Eastern and Malay languages came from - India. At this very moment, there are several martial-based performing arts in South India which have the phrase "kali" attached to their names. All of them evolved from the South Indian martial arts of Kalaripayattu - probably, also the origin of Shaolin Kung Fu. > > Foreigners such as Dr. Mark V. Wiley and Dr. Ronald A. Harris, both of > the USA, had conducted their research on the term Kali in the > Philippines and their research concur with what the locals had to say. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ============================================================================== --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 05:54:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali-ikot and History To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I’m afraid that you’re correct sir when you said that the Filipino culture, including its history and martial arts, had been mud-ified and it would be frustrating to correct it already. Eskrima is also the norm in Cebu; Arnis, in Negros and Panay; and Estokada, to some extent in the aforementioned areas. One of teachers, GM Fortunato Garcia of Bacolod, also uses the term burokil and brokil. At least it’s comforting to know that Laguna, Cebu, Negros, and Panay uses the same set of terms for FMA. GatPuno@aol.com wrote: Hello, here we go again, on the Kali term. We discuss this long ago, but somehow we still wanted to clarify thing that on our way. Its too late no matter what we do "Kali" now is widely accepted term as FMA around the world. How can we dispute that huh? Okay, if our history is is not corrupted of foreign writer and the mis-guided by so called Filipino writers or the early geniuses, up to now we probably know what is it the truth about Filipino peple and its culture. No one can save this now, the Aborigins are now corrupted by media and hipotized by the modern belief. There is no way to save the old tradition and the old culture of the true Filipino. We Filipino ourselves cant even agree to one simple thing, more the other racial group that will not easily for us to agree. I love being Filipino in and out, I would die as Filipino. But I cant change a things or even smooth it out the dented history of our culture, what done is done. On the beginning of the discussion of the Kali term, I alreasdy attack them and tried to dispute this term "Kali" as Filipino Martial Arts. To tell you honestly the problem is not the term, the problem is us, we can get one solid inofrmation of what its really the truth. There is no truth, and there is no way to really find the real name of the first ever or the mother of all mother of Filipino Martial Arts. There only one certain to me, there is Filipino Martial Arts and really does not matter what we call them, it ours, it our pride to claim this art is beautiful, effective, economical and really scientifically tested in real battle ground from the first Filipino Groups and up to this day. I am solid Tagalog and in our native toungue "Kalis" has two meaning. Check and look it up in our Tagalog dictionary, kalis means bolo or long bladed weapon, and the other meaning is adopted word from Spanish, Chalis(we Filipino call this kalis) meaning cup that the Priest used to drink his wime during remembering the last supper of Jesus and his Apostles before his crucifixion. Now "Kalis" is also means scrape, and to scrapes means "kalisin". So it is more that exist that we thnik it is not to our own dictionary. Now in recent term, I really dont have a problem calling their arts "Kali" I always have doubt that this is the Mother of all mother of all FMA. As written in the book of Yambao, Mirafuerte said is called different term in different dialect. Therefore not to assumed or event insert that your term "Kali" is the mother arts, this is claiming that the another arts is only branches from "Kali" this is uncertain and no ground of acceptance to most Filipino. It is easy to say, but do you really know that is the mother arts? To call this mother art, you should know who really scientifically study this before it become on systematic fighting arts. Okay, everyone claimed the Ten Datus who landed to Panay, then later two or more Datus landed in Bon-bon now called Batangas, right here I am already confused to the History. Remember Batangas and Laguna is one strip of land only and remember the Laguna Copper plate they found in Lumban, Laguna river. This piece of history set back to 900AD. We have our language, writing, and even rules. The copperplate is signed and incripted as valuable document to the ruler of Tondo. Meaning before the Ten Datu Landed to the Philippines we have already group people living with government structured already. So this is might be another false claimed. Remember as the history claimed that the Ten Datus bought the island of Panay from the Atis, specifically said Island of Panay, but later Datu Puti, accopanied the other Datu to the other Island. It really dont make sense to me, that the Atis of Panay is the original owner of the Philippines. As written in our history that our island is already has existence of Aetas from Jolo to Aparri. This alone is contradict, not clearly written how this other Datu feels when they bought the land from Atis of Panay then all of sudden the other island is part of the what they purchased from the Atis of Panay? Its something wrong, dont you think?. Now, tell me do you really beleived that this is what really happen. To me this is not clear at all, my History Teacher cannot really give me a straight answer to this history. Now let me go back to the "Kali" I know we dont know this word before and only now you know. Then I thnik is time to put it on rest, and accepted that this is the new term the world accepted as other name for Filipino Martial Arts. I totally agree to the writer that is not the term we knows, but for the clarification purposes, your free to voice your opinion, but also accepted wether we like it or not that this is now a world re-known term for the FMA. As I said, earlier the only problem that I have the so called claimed "The mother of all mother of Filipino martial Arts". In regards of your claimed about ROTC/CMT, I was rank Colonel in CMT (Citizen Army Training) and 1st Leutenant in ROTC(Reserved Officer Training Course), 1982 Eastern Laguna Colleges. I havent used Pugay Kalis, is this term now they used? I used Pugay Sandata or Espada during my time. Also when I was in Army training in Capinpin, Rizal I havent heard the "Pugay Kalis" term, oh! anyway we used English in Philippine Army, I forgot. I closing, I am thankful that this two author is give me a strong feeling about my term that I used as FMA. My school is named P.A.E.T.E. (Paaralan ng Arnis Estokada at Tradisyunal Eskrima) beside being the name of my hometown. As both claimed this is also the three term used in Visaya. For the records, Arnis, Eskrima, Estokada is the national accepted term by Filipino, and in Laguna this three term is widely alternately used by all Laguna practitioner and we call the Baston(spanish term for cane) Burokil or brokil for stick or wooded carved like swords . Remember we have many styles and GMasters in Laguna but all of them is a friends of the Garimot System of Arnis. We stand to what we believed that the secret of the Garimot family, and my purposed of being here is the same, I want be friends with all of you. Remember I want to lea rn from all of you too. Okay, I call this topic as "Kali-ikot" becaused few days from now this topic will be gone and it will come back again. As long as we learned positive results on this discussion, let it comes and dont be affraid if you have a better opinion even your are not native Filipino, I have to admit, I learned a lot from all of you by being in sidelines watching the discussion goes by. Okay hoping my two cent worth contribution may help others too. Gumagalang( with respect), Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA _www.garimot.com_ (http://www.garimot.com) I respect the opinions and some of the facts and stories that Mr. Celestino C. Macachor and Ned Nepangue M.D. presented in their individual papers though this does not necessarily mean that I agree with them.. in mindanao, the land where i was born, where i grew up and the land that i love, we have friends among the Muslims and they have informed us that the TAUSUG term for their bladed weapons is indeed KALIS. (fyi: the TAUSUGs are the most feared warrior tribe among Muslim Filipinos - Nur Misuari, ARMM Governor Parouk Hussin and Basilan Governor Wahab Akbar are some of the noteworthy Tausug personalities). Most of the Tausugs are based in Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-tawi. In the Philippine military/para-military [Armed Forces of the Philippines, ROTC, CMT/CAT, etc.], the term for the ceremonial saber or any other bladed weapon/sword is KALIS.. [Saludo Kalis! (Salute with the Sword/Saber!)- or words to that effect..] [[fyi: Placido Yambao wrote Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis in 1957 – first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA). According to Bot Jocano (2004): “It is probably this book that is the source of many of the history sections of most arnis books available in the market today. This material is found in the chapter entitled “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” and what was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book. Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI during the early years of the Spanish conquest. In particular, mention is made of the arrival of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or chieftains and their followers. Legazpi’s reaction to those demonstrations is presented in the following: Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na “ang KALI ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa sarili sa larangan ng digmaan” (p.10) (Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not only a game and a measure of passing time but also an effective art of self-protection in the realm of warfare".)” ]] about that book and its author - the controversial piece “Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis” (actually an introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was the first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the UP Diliman Library.. now as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 06:01:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: RE: [Eskrima] to 'F' or 'Ph' To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To add to Myron's answer, The Pilipino abakada (alphabet) originally did not have letters such as f, j, etc. But later, letters that were used in the English alphabet were also introduced. Thus your Pilipino became Filipino. "Wieneke, Myron" wrote: The country was named after the King of Spain, King Philip II. The official name is always spelled as Philippines, though in the past some called in Las Islas Filipinas or Filipinas (Spanish spelling). In our native tongue, its also called Pilipinas. The people are called Filipino internationally, but we call ourselves Pilipino (or Pinoy as a slang). If you notice the "F" and "P" are somewhat interchangeable. Funny thing is native speakers also have a tendency to phonetically interchange "F" and "P". There's a fairly common joke amongst us when making fun of this tendency, "Can I Flease have a Fiece of Fafer por my exam" =-)) Not sure if everyone will get this joke, definitely the Pinoys out there would. Hope that helps. Regards, Myron -----Original Message----- From: iPat [mailto:pmdavies@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 12:54 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] to 'F' or 'Ph' Just out of curiosity, where did the word Phillipines first happen. Why do we use the F at times? Not looking to cause world war 53 or anything. On 5/1/07, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Hello, here we go again, on the Kali term. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ============================================================================== Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.credit-suisse.com/legal/en/disclaimer_email_ib.html ============================================================================== _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 09:56:35 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] GM Felisicimo Dizon/GM Fred Lazo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I already mentioned this few years back, in regards of GM Felicisimo Dizon. GM Dizon and GM Antonio "Tatang" Ilustrisimo is on the list of Eskrimador that participated in "Doce Pares of Laguna" this took place in Mount Banahaw on the late 50's early 60's. I dont know such a thing is exist, but when Mark Wiley visited me in the Philippine on Nov. 1999, I invited a handfull of GM to entertain Wiley at the same time interview few of the GM of Laguna. It came to the questioned of Mark, since the he heard that GM Dizon was once a member of the Doce Pares, according to him everyone jump on it that GM Dizon is never been part of the Doce Pares of Visaya. This also witness and personally told Wiley that their was once as associated to the in-famous Doce Pares of Mount Banahaw. lied to the mount of lLucban Quezon and Lumot in Laguna not far from boundary of Paete, Laguna land. The place was once the Mountain Haven for those "Anting-anting" lovers, believers and acquirers. Now on the old man account(he is 74 years old at 1999 that time now he is 83yrs old and still alive in Paete), his father GM Julian Madrigal, which is of Maestro of of my Father GM Felipe "Garimot" Baet, the name of GM Dizon is on the list of Maestro who fought on the Doce Pares Pares Gathering in Banahaw, and this is done inside and out side the Banahaw Cave "Kweba sa Banahaw". (now has ristriction acces by Municipal of Lucban, Quezon). Well, according to the story,on the GM Dizon fough rigorously and reach to the 7th matches and lost from Maestro Pedro Oliveros of Mauban Quezon, and Maestro Feling Dizon as they called him he lost to that 7th matches of 12 Faired matches, ant he later year he did it again and he lost on the 9th matches to Maestro Pedro Ladiana of Lumban, Laguna. This records is only two person who holds, Maestro Pedro Magracia, on this day is 91 year old, and already lost his memory, and Maestro Modesto "Moody" Madrigal is 83 and already sick. I have the pleasure of talking and learning from this Maestro and the records is not allowed to let anyone to see and have if that not member of the Doce Pares of Laguna. In regards of GM Lazo, I meet and witness him demonstrated the his art, and I am just so surprised that his art is more than "Modern Arnis" than any of the traditional Largo or Serrada stylist. His skill is no doubtly igood, but i just cant see the resemblance between Serrada and his arts. But when he said tha he is studied and mastered with him (GM Dizon) hey that his words, I cant dispute that. I have all respect, but when I see something wrong to the two fruit, an Apple should not bare orange fruit or else is something wrong in that picture. Put it this way, in my own eyes and simply observation, as far as GM Lazo's art is far from similar to the Serrada's art. Footwork, stances and execution of strikes and defense. Well, I just want to voice my two cent, I am not any way want this post to be mis-understood, I am friend of GM lazo, and no I have not said that hes claimed is not right, I just think iits is my right to share with you all my self observation of his arts. Its a night and day, believed me from Serrada. Pasersiya na sa aking pagiging tapat sa inyo(forgive me for being honest to all of you) Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com Dizon info direct from Federico Lazo. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com =================================================================== Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 00:40:52 EDT Subject: Grandmaster Dizon Info Dear Mr. Terry I had heard GM Dizon say "Tapos ako sa De Cuerdas," meaning he finished or passed De Cuerdas. First I thought that he was referring to the success of passing through the tunnel test because Cuerdas as understood in the Philippines means "a stretched string of a guitar," but it also means a tighten spring which was used in the tunnel of death test. All along I understood that he knows Eskrima that can pass the Tunnel of Death. Dizon is Visayan and Cabales is the same. He probably made it appear that his Eskrima is De Cuerdas to Cabales to indicate the quality of his art and it eventually turned into De Cuerdas. Personally I understood it to be an Eskrima that passed the Tunnel of Death or De Cuerdas tunnel. An Eskrima that can pass the Tunnel test has to be superior. It has been said that people who went through this test prepared their coffin ahead of time because very few passed it. The Legendary story about Dizon mentioned that he passed the test without injury and difficultly, which indicates that his personal expertise on his Eskrima is exceptional. De Cuerdas or any other name if it deals with the stick still is Eskrima. Very Truly Yours, Federico Lazo ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rich Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 09:10:33 -0500 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm sure that you are just being facetious. I think we can all agree to disagree and move forward. The name Kali exists and it is here to say. I don't think that any of the Filipino Grandmasters and Masters, such as GM Leo Gaje, GM Vicente Sanchez, GM Ben Largusa, GM Dan Inosanto, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Guro Carl Atienza, that have chosen to propagate the art of Kali would change the name of their styles/systems and organizations just to appease the nay-sayers anyway. We should divert our effort to actually doing something positive for the Filipino Martial Arts, instead of beating this (very) dead horse, and getting nowhere IMO. Rich Acosta ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org ----- Original Message ----- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 02 May 2007 10:52:03 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Kalisin/Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I heard of Kali before used in movie, and it refers as "Lord" and it used by the aborigines like Datu/Raja title, Kali Kalipay,in Laguna their is a tale of in ttile "Kali Iraya" an old stories of the 21 rivers man made lagoon called non this days "Caliraya". Well, I can see where thoeries come from, becaused we knows that Philippines is were from Malays descent and some of the sanskrits that we used is the same sanskrits as the of India used like "Sandata" weapons, Maharlika (nobles) and Raja (Chieftain) few word that we still used up to now in Filipino languages. Remember in India "Kali" is a Goddest or Godly image of a warriors. Probably this the root of the words, before. But I dont still see the Fighting arts on the meaning of "Kali". Also in old Tagalog word, we used up to now, the word "kali" is means stop used the Tagalog word di-mapa-kali (cannot stop). Anyway I will check more word related to "Kali". Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ----- ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Mdgchlnd@wmconnect.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 11:08:16 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA School around Richmond, VA! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings Everyone. I am a relocated Martial Artist who recently moved to the Richmond, VA area. I am wondering if anyone know of any FMA schools close to the Richmond, VA area. I would greatly appreciate any help finding a school and Instructor. Thank You, Matt Carter --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 09:03:58 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Something upon which I can comment Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof James Jr. Sy: As someone who has been on the periphery of this discussion for many years, I usually have the wisdom to avoid speaking on the substance and merits of it as befits a clueless American Anglo. That said, I do believe I can contribute here to the particular point which you make here: > "Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US > refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group." > > It would help alot if you can please name the significant group. > > In "The Filipino Martial Arts," Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto listed 35 > individuals and 2 groups in his lineage. Of these, only 2 individuals and > 1 group were associated with the term Kali, namely GM Floro Villabrille > and GM Ben Largusa, a student of GM Villabrille and the San Franciso Kali > Group. The others were as follows, > > Master Pedro Apilado - Escrima > Pepe Montano Arca - Escrima > Vincent Arca - Escroma > Richard Bustillo - Escrima > Atty. Dionisio Cańete - Escrima > The Cańete Brothers - Escrima > Master Angel Cabales - Escrima > Stockton Escrima Group - Escrima > Master Regino Ellustrisimo - Escrima > Master Leo Giron - Escrima > Master John Lacoste - Escrima > Master Pacual Ovales - Escrima > Master Braulio Pedoy - Escrima > Guro Narrie Babao - Arnis > Guro Dentoy Revillar - Escrima > Master Jack Santos - Escrima > Guro Max Sarmiento - Escrima > Master Sam Tendencia - Arnis > Guro Gilbert tenio - Escrima Speaking as a long-time student of Guro Inosanto, I am rather sure that I often have heard him speak of his principal teacher, Manong John Lacoste as using the term Kali as well as Eskrima. Those who have spent time with Guro Inosanto know well the importance of Manong Lacoste for him. Guro/Sifu Richard Bustillo was a student of Guro I., not a teacher and off the top of my head I don't remember where Diony Canete fits in all this. Also to be noted in this context is that Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje, whose Pekiti Tirsia is one of the 5 principal Filipino systems of Inosanto Blend, is a strong advocate of the use of the term Kali. Although thanks to my wife's organizational skills I cannot lay my hands on it at the moment, Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's book "Masters of Arnis, Kali and Eskrima" contributes to the conversation. In closing, speaking for the record as the , , , ahem , , , founder of Dog Brothers Martial Arts, which might fairly be described as an impure Filipino Martial Arts system: IMHO the naysayers of the term have not explained away the introduction of the Yambao book. We make no claims about Kali being the mother art or anything like that. In addition to the fact that we are clueless Americans, we use the term Kali because: a) my teacher Guro Dan Inosanto uses it, b) because here in America (and Europe where we have substantial presence as well) the term is well-known, and c) in my very humble opinion, what we think of as Kali is influenced by Silat i.e. that there are some differences between kali and eskrima/arnis. Please do not ask me to expound-- I lack the suicidal wish necessary to answer such a question. :-) The Adventure continues, Guro Marc Denny/Crafty Dog Founder/Head Instructor/blah blah Dog Brothers Martial Arts --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 10:48:36 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sulwan Academy Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Stephen, Thanks for the info! I'm definitely into the Filipino empty hands. Well worth checking out! Peace, ~John > Message: 2 > From: Stephen Taylor > To: , Leon Rosario > > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Inquiry: Sulwan Kali Academy > Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 00:57:51 -0700 > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > While I believe the school itself has relocated to > Hawaii, Leon Rosario is > still teaching in the San Jose area. You can email > him directly at > lrkoolaid@aol.comStephen Taylor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 15:34:55 EDT To: GatPuno@aol.com, eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali/term Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Okay, let me continue the "Kali" thread. I am and still believed that > the FMA name before is no names is just simply  "pakikidigma" (warrior > arts). I am looking at it in the History of Igorot, Tinggian all of > this older thatn Spaniards colonization of the Philippines. Remain and > true tol their Culture and the fighting arts is no name, only the > Wrestling called "Bultong". Mainly everyone go at it as it, no > preffered name, in Tagalog in other hand. We start naming the arts, as > it progress during the Spanish Colonization, the Estokada that name > after the Estoque (sword) used by the Matador,the Eskrima (name after > Esgrima meaning Spanish Fencing). Arnis is after Spanish Arnes(Harness) > is is the decorative trappings used in "Moro-moro" by the actors in > 1600's is a type of protective gear but made in colorfull materials > made by native Filipino. Arnis de mano simply mean Arnes de Mano > (Protective gear of the Hand), now traslated by many Filipino Master of > Arnis as "Sheild of the hands." But all of them came out only during > Moro-moro times. Like what Francisco Balagtas say, in his Efic > "Florante at Laura, that he said in his line. "Larung Bunot Arnis(the > Play Drawing Swords), na kinakitaan ng galing at liksi (that show the > skills and speed). > > I agree, that is does not matter to you, since you care only is the > effectivenees of the arts. But we as the group we discuss things > related to the root, history and technical aspect of the FMA. > Apparently this is one of the big aspect of the arts that we love. I > was optistmistic, when i said we love, maybe not all of us then. But > the discussion is healthy and as long as we dont disrespect anyone, as > long as we open about it, I guess we are free to put our opinion on it. > > In regards of the questioned, if they made this up, I would respect > them if they do, becaused they did a good job making it up. Perhaps, I > can say is Job well well done.. > > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > Garimot Arnis Training Group International > Laguna Arnis Federation International > US Harimaw Buno Federation > Hilot Research center USA > Tel. 954-432-4433 > www.garimot.com > > ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest