Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 02:58:33 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #130 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. & Mirafuente(Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #127-13 msgs (Felipe Jocano) 2. When Filipino become Filipino? (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. On Going Kali Thread !! (Jorge Penafiel) 4. Re: Kali (Felipe Jocano) 5. Re: Re: Serrada Eskrima Lineage (Felipe Jocano) 6. Dizon (Guro Dennis Servaes) 7. How to fight multiple opponents (Marc Macyoung) 8. Re: Dizon (Ray) 9. GMDiozon/GM Lazo Evolution? (GatPuno@aol.com) 10. Re: On Going Kali Thread !! (Felipe Jocano) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 19:43:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. & Mirafuente(Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #127-13 msgs To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dear PG Mat: I would agree with you on this point except that in the case of Mr. Mirafuente's chapter on the history of arnis, the omission of the bibliography is noteworthy since he is a member of the local historical association and judging from the brief bio-notes an academic as well as a fighting man. This is not to judge him or cast aspersions on his capabilities, only that the lack of sources is a bit frustrating to later researchers. But then, what would I know? My own review and commentary focused on this chapter because of the historical questions it raises (such as those we're discussing right now) and not on the rest of the text, including the merits of the techniques discussed therein. At the time I wrote it, I didn't feel I had the expertise yet to tackle the technical aspects of the rest of the book (I still don't). (Although that would be an interesting project by itself - not only a magazine length article, but perhaps a book-length compilation of commentaries on various techniques shown from the points of view of different practitioners. What do you think? Could it be done?) I would rather that the review, critical as it may be, would lead us to probe further into the questions I raised - or even better raise new questions. I should perhaps add that as an anthropologist, I am asked questions from other local practitioners about the origins and cultural background of our beloved arts, so my own efforts should be seen as bumbling and imperfect attempts at answering their questions. Hence my ventures into this terrain. On two more personal notes: PG, do you remember a certain Dodie? I met him a few months ago and I just remembered now that he said that if I ever got in touch with you via email, that he says hello. He was active in the kung-fu scene in the 70s (not sure if Ling Nam) and also trained with GM Lanada (long lost classmate?) Since you were also once a member of the faculty of Adamson University, do you ever meet Prof. Adria Jocano of the Department of Chemistry? Respectfully, Bot --- Pananandta@aol.com wrote: > The content of a book (its historical portion) about > fighting should not be > judged as "flawed" by a historian based on the lack > of a bibliography. All the > men in the book were fighting men and the book > should be judged on that > basis. Bibliographies should be left to the > academicians not to the fighting > men > featured in the book. A review should be balanced by > a discussion of the > merits of the techniques in the book. > > Placido Yambao asked the readers (begs their pardon) > of the book for any > omissions that according to him was "... mga > pangyayaring hindi batid ng > sumulat > at hindi rin natatarok ng aming bubot na hagap". > (.. occurences outside the > reach of their immature minds). The book is written > in literary Tagalog. > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:03:26 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] When Filipino become Filipino? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net March 16,1521 Ferdinand Magellan landed to the Philippines, that time was known from Chinese as Mai Island. But Philippines was name after King Philip de II of Spain given by Miguel Lopez de Legaspi on 1565. And for the records the Filipino Alphabet is standardized after President Manuel L. Quezon made Tagalog as the National languages of the Philippines 1950"s. From 1565 as soon as the Spaniard have the strong foothold ofthe Islands, they introduced theirSpanish alphabet to Filipino Including (C-F-LL-Q-the other N they pronounce it en-yeh-J and Z) Spaniards called the natives as Indios refered as Indian but later they call us Filipino (Citizen of the Islas de las Filipinas). Before the American the Filipino more than 70 dialect besides Spanish language is well practiced already all over island in the Philippines. After treaty of Paris on 1898, the American start changing the School sytem in the Philippines, they brought the English literature of off course the English Alphabeth is less than the Spanish alphabet. Just for the records we we been called Filipino long before the American got an interest to the islands. Pilipino is the curricullum in school, to learn the national language of the Philippines. Also since most Filipino "F"sound like "P" and "P" it like sound "F" or vise versa. One way to find out if they really born in the Philippines listen to them ask them to read this "Fifty five hundreds and fifty five Peso". Then tell me how they read the words "F" become "P"..then you know that he is really bornin the Philippines. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com > > To add to Myron's answer, >    >   The Pilipino abakada (alphabet) originally did not have letters such as f, > j, etc.  But later, letters that were used in the English alphabet were also > introduced.  Thus your Pilipino became Filipino.  >    > > "Wieneke, Myron" wrote: >   The country was named after the King of Spain, King Philip II. The > official name is always spelled as Philippines, though in the past some called in > Las Islas Filipinas or Filipinas (Spanish spelling). In our native tongue, its > also called Pilipinas. The people are called Filipino internationally, but we > call ourselves Pilipino (or Pinoy as a slang). If you notice the "F" and "P" > are somewhat interchangeable. Funny thing is native speakers also have a > tendency to phonetically interchange "F" and "P". There's a fairly common joke > amongst us when making fun of this tendency, "Can I Flease have a Fiece of > Fafer por my exam" =-)) Not sure if everyone will get this joke, definitely the > Pinoys out there would. > > Hope that helps. > > Regards, > > Myron > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 23:51:51 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] On Going Kali Thread !! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The grand things about ED are that it's got diverse people who cares about FMA, talented,dedicated, and obviously cerebrally top heavy - professors, historians, researchers, etc. It is the meeting of these people minds that produce great discords such as what we are having on the word "Kali". So far, the learning is outpouring and great but certainly still a bit broad and somewhat remains cloudy with a twist of contoversy to some. Like my friend Robert said,,I too is "Kali neutral". I use the word lots if and when I talk about FMA "the Art" and depending on it's "origin and system" (place/word/fighting modality/weapons use/person/animal/combat range/foreign influence/etc), one can refer to FMA with these three words: Arnis/eskrima/Kali. All the same, right?? For what I gathered and deduced from the Kali discussions thus far are: 1) There are some consensus as to where the word Kali came from. Some forthright, accurate to some degree, debatable, maybe on-going, but overall no concrete idea yet. Hopefully, in the near future or perhaps this new book coming by C. Macachor et. al., can shade some light for the sake of clarity but not for complete change of existing mind-set for Kali school of thoughts. 2) Kali is known in the Philippines but pinoys would rather refer to their systems as Arnis or Eskrima. Maybe not so filipino as a fighting system due to some of the word roots it was derived at; ie. Kali - to scratch or dig. Just my thought !! 3). That there are pinoy FMA'ers who brought their art to the outside world and refer to it as Kali. All in good, no arguments there but then again "stuffs/claims" were added that does not sound right to some and that's were the problem arises. 4). KALI is there to stay , so , "Kalimutan" na natin at tuloy ang "Kaligayahan" sa FMA (lets put this to past and move on with happiness for FMA)!! Ok,,,got a situation. Karate guys are just too stiff and grapplers got problems with control! Added hints to correct these things with some of my students are most welcome. Chiao good people!! Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:20:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James: You raise an interesting point: Yambao's reference is traced to 1957, the date of publication (BTW, we have absolutely no idea at all if they were using the term prior to that date) while Balagtas' piece is traceable to 1831 and uses "arnes..." Chronologically and going by documentation alone, arnes is the older term. But is that enough? For me, not yet. As you say, more research... --- "james jr. sy" wrote: > The first recorded use of Kali was Yambao's book in > 1957. > > A friend of mine at the Center for Lasallian > Ministries at thew University of st. La Salle (USLS) > called to my attention that Florante at Laura by > Francisco Balagtas, written in 1831, in verse 223, > lone 3, "larong buno't arnes..." This was the first > recorded use of Arnis. > > In "The Filipino Martial Arts," Master Daniel > "Dan" Inosanto listed 35 individuals and 2 groups in > his lineage. Only GM Floro Villabrille and GM Ben > Largusa, and the San Franciso Kali Group was > associated with Kali. > I'd like to get your input on these observations: With regards to all the six statements below, a major part of our problem is the conflation or confusion between kali/s as a clearly defined martial system (nos. 3-6) and kali/s as a generic term for sword (note posts about Tausug term for sword, my own post about Scott's translation in Barangay that includes kalis as the term for sword). Kalis may have simply referred to sword and swordsmanship in the generic sense at that time and not necessarily a defined martial art with lineages, system name, GMs, etc (I've written about this in Rapid and in FMA Digest). A more contemporary analogy comes to mind: my father sometimes spoke of the bastoneros of Iloilo (I'm half-Ilonggo - my father is from Iloilo). "Magaling sa baston..." is how he would say it (they were good at stick). Baston as I understood it is a generic term for stick, not referring to a specific system for stickfighting. This may also perhaps address points 1 & 2. Thus, a term for sword or skill with sword (speculation on that point) does not necessarily mean that this refers to FMA, only that individuals were known to be skilled with the sword. Another point you raised concerns the work of time on language. If kalis were at one time used as the term for sword (Scott's Barangay) throughout the Visayas and today is used among the contemporary Tausug (another reference is Dr. Jundam's book on Islamic shariah law among the Tausug, in which the term kalis for sword occurs), then from today's point of view, kalis is now an archaic term for sword for modern Visayans while it persists for the Tausug. For Visayan practitioners, eskrima today is the preferred term, on that there is no doubt. Which brings us back to the issue I raised in an earlier post: again, another dimension to the problem is the conflation of archaic and modern uses of the term, leading to assertions 1 & 2 and the contention that it doesn't exist. I submit that in the context of contemporary Visayan languages, kali/s is an archaism - it used to exist but is no longer widely used today. For other language speakers, it still appears to be in use today. The problem is, as you pointed out in 3-6, lies in when it's taken out, dusted off and used to assert a claim of superiority over other systems. Here's another one - if we follow that line of thinking, the terms mentioned in Yambao's book can also be seen as archaisms in their respective languages, having been replaced by arnis as the generic term. Those are specific to their regions. Perhaps speakers of these languages (Ilokano, Ibanag, Pangasinense, etc.) can comment? Also note that kali and its variants seem to have been used at one time in the northern Luzon area if we go by the word lists in Yambao and Inosanto's books. More power to you, your group (interesting pieces in Rapid, nice work!) and to your research! Bot > > On my side, I'm doing my part here in Western > Visayas. As far as the coverage of my research is > concerned, I have found no credible proof that: > > 1. Kali was the pre-Hispanic term for FMA. > 2. Kali is the oldest term for FMA. > 3. Kali is the mother art of all FMA. > 4. Kali, the martial art, is embeded and is a > part of the Filipino culture and language. > 5. Kali is purer than Arnis and Escrima, which > are said to be Spanish. > 6. Kali is blade based while arnis and escrima > are stick based. > > It is my hope that more Filipinos would take up > the challenge and discover their real roots. With > historical relevance that is. It is a large work > but with several people on it, we will be nearer the > truth. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:25:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Serrada Eskrima Lineage To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi John; I managed to contact my friend yesterday. His teacher was one of Dizon's sons, named Roque Dizon. I don't have much other info about the man, only an anecdote from my friend about how much what he learned from Mr. Dizon resembled the Kalis Illustrisimo system (and this was from last year's memories). I have no idea about how to contact Mr. Dizon or whether he was still teaching his father's art (or even if he's still here in Manila!). I'm still asking though... Bot --- John Montes wrote: > Hi All, > > Felipe Jocano: Thanks bro that would definitely mean > alot to me. One of my great passions is researching > FMA's. I'm pretty sure there are a few people who > would love to learn more about the Dizon family and > their system. I know I would. > > By the way Ray it's nice to be back after a few > years. I lost my email address somehow and along > with it, lots of contacts and this subsciption. > I always enjoy your intelligence and positivity. > > I hope this email finds us all in good health and > good spirits. > > Peace, ~John > > Santa Clara, CA > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? > Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:32:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Guro Dennis Servaes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Dizon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dizon did not study Decuredas. Ever! He studied from an unnamed hermit, and the art was just called Escrima. The term Decuredas comes from the Doce Pares group, and it refers to the tunnel. Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales, may have already known a type of Escrima when at the age of 17 he started training from Dizon, but regardless the art he taught later was primarily the same that Dizon taught to him. Angel put together a corriculum that was simplified. Later it was called Serrada to differentiate it from the other Escrima systems. Train hard and have fun! Dennis --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Marc Macyoung" To: Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 21:41:52 -0600 Subject: [Eskrima] How to fight multiple opponents Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] > Something like this: > > http://www.flixya.com/turkish-man-fights-mob > > === > Perfect scenario for a weaponless one man fight against multiple > opponents. > My man got it right on!! Used his feet to run about, move, and maintain > stability from the onslaught instead of throwing kicks as there was no > need or > chance to do so. The head and body movements avoided some of the nasty > punches thrown at him and geez ,,his extended straight jabs and cross were > perfectly timed and right on target.. Kudoz to the man - my bet a good > bragging (just kidding)story to tell -I would!! > Jorge Penafiel For the edited vs. the unedited version. Top is unedited, bottom is edited http://fun.beni.tv/fights/nd.html He threw the first punch and it wasn't a "mob" it was three guys, one of whom was an older man. Marc Animal MacYoung --__--__-- Message: 8 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dizon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 20:59:40 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales, may have already known a type of Escrima when at the age of 17 he started training from Dizon, but regardless the art he taught later was primarily the same that Dizon taught to him. Angel put together a corriculum that was simplified. Later it was called Serrada to differentiate it from the other Escrima systems. > Angel's Serrada was something that he came up with, with help from Dentoy. By most all accounts, including what we have just seen here, Angel's Serrada and Dizon's Eskrima are very different. No big surprise there. That is also another observation that Fred Lazo made via email. Not at all alike. Which in no way implies worse, or better, just different... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 00:01:33 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] GMDiozon/GM Lazo Evolution? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 5/2/07 10:03:06 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > John, > Thank you first of all. Glad you appreciate the time and effort that I put in while I can. Tomorrow I am back to work, so I am taking advantage to the small time I got. I have my Home stand for 7 days with Marlins. > Hi All, > Warm Greetings Guro Abon! > Thank you very much for the information. You're > consistently outdoing yourself with the knowledge you > share with us. Many thanks. > Well,since you give your opinion of the two, I believed I am entitle to give my opinion of what I noticed first hand. I have seen also demonstration of the Serradas, and I understand the influence, but dont you think the strike should be remain in both arts, even though your arts is in different ranges. i would think, GM Dizon, would not change the strike to one student to the next am I right? Consistency that what is called. I am pretty much consistent in the arts, I can tell if the practitioner is not skillfull enough to bit me, or skilled enough to give me a hard time. GM is should be consistent in their basic training, Strikes is there but the similar techniques should be there too. What I am saying is, I cant hardly believed that the two is both came or learned from the same teacher and they cant even practiced in one form of basic curricullum. I really doubt it.. I see him in person, I also see lots of Serrada practitoner, also I see Inayan, even though Inayan has fusion of the few different styles, is still very clear and noticeable the Serrada stance and techniques. Are you telling me that GM Lazo is only influence by GM Dizon, is clearly said he finished learning from him, means he learn the De Cuerdas in whole, now you are telling me is only influenced? That different than saying "Tapos ako sa De Cuerdas"(I am finish with De Cuerdas) is in it? In Villabrille's, account he learned from his Uncle and he is the sparring partner of Ilustrisimo, now tell me You mean Villabrille learned from Dizon too? i though their good friends like GM Antonio "Tatang" Ilustrisimo. But tell you what, their a lot of similar stances,blocks strike used by the Villabrille and Cabales Serrada, but I cant hardly see it in GM lazo, its Modern Arnis style is what I see on his system. I know I was once teach Modern Arnis Curricullum as P.E.in the Philippines at that time, this is the only organized Arnis associated with Ministry ofEducation Culture and Sports. Anyway, I still not dis-respecting GM Lazo, i think he is good teacher and person to be friends. you will learn a lot from him. I still thank you for giving me you opinion about the issue. I still believed that apple should be bare apple fruit not orange. Dont tell it was grafted branches? Oh that is why.. > With regards to the two systems, those being GM Fred > Lazo's art, and Cabales Serrada Eskrima, from what I > understand, what sets these two apart, FAR apart, are > the influences. Whereas Fred has more than one > influence, Angel Cabales had only one teacher, Dizon. > Serrada, as I understand it, is a derivitive of De > Cuerdas. From what I witnessed in the few clips that > GM Lazo has on his site, it doesn't seem to look much > like Serrada, but in my humble opinion it would be > hard to compare the two. Why? I think it has to do > with the evolution of an art. Dizon's art simply > evolved. Beyond that, from student to student, > expressions of an art change. Students evolve. Fred > Lazo's art evolved, as did Angel's.The same would > probably hold true for Floro Villabrille's art > compared to Cabales Serrada Eskrima (I've heard of one > instance of this and it reflects what I'm saying!). > Likewise, I'll bet that Fred Lazo's art is pretty > different from Floro's art. > > > Much Respect from a beginning enthusiast, > > ~John > > Nice talking to you John, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 21:01:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] On Going Kali Thread !! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Manong Jorge: FMA training :-) especially in how to flow and stay loose. Flowing is good, whether in discussions on kali ;-P or in practice! Yours in kali-sthenics ;-) Bot P.S. Seriously, my friends with a background in both grappling and FMA had very good control in grappling skills. It seems that espada y daga skills translated into greater sensitivity and finer control for grappling. We had some guys with backgrounds in karate train for a while. To get them to relax, they had to do lots of espada y daga and solo stick drills. > Ok,,,got a situation. Karate guys are just too > stiff and grapplers got > problems with control! > Added hints to correct these things with some of my > students are most > welcome. > Chiao good people!! > Jorge Penafiel > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest