Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 13:52:06 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #131 - 15 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.6 required=5.0 tests=LOTS_OF_STUFF, MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: When Filipino become Filipino? (Felipe Jocano) 2. Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) (james jr. sy) 3. Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) (james jr. sy) 4. Prof. Adria Jocano, Dodie, Mirafuente (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #130 - 11 msgs (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Re: Prof. Adria Jocano, Dodie, Mirafuente (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #130 - 11 msgs (jay de leon) 6. Blowgun Competition (Pananandta@aol.com) 7. Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. - Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #130 (Daniel Rutano) 8. Re: FMA history (Kes41355@aol.com) 9. GM Angel/GM Lazo (gatpuno@aol.com) 10. Re: Dizon (John Montes) 11. Sayoc Kali Seminar LOCATION CHANGE (Joseph Marana) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 2 May 2007 21:12:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] When Filipino become Filipino? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GatPuno; I tried it out on my students a few years ago. It came out por many op dem: Pipti pive hundred and pipty pive feso (por some of dem dat is). :-) I grew up as Ingglisero for many years and only got my Tagalog straightened out in high school. Years later, my ingglis is istill inpluenced by my Tagalog. Seriously, there is a movement going on to modify written Tagalog to reflect current spoken versions, especially imported words. Thus, F is now being taught as F, same for Z, Th, etc. Bot --- GatPuno@aol.com wrote: Also since most Filipino "F"sound like > "P" and "P" it like sound > "F" or vise versa. One way to find out if they > really born in the Philippines > listen to them ask them to read this "Fifty five > hundreds and fifty five > Peso". Then tell me how they read the words "F" > become "P"..then you know that > he > is really bornin the Philippines. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 04:47:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net RJ Garcia wrote: "At least, we all are honest about arnis, and eskrima for that matter, being terms that came about in the Spanish colonial period. No one is claiming that arnis or eskrima is more original and older than others. Can we say the same about kali?" The burden of proof lies on the one who claims. "What's in a name? Why care about the terms when what we need is effectivity/efficiency? If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not." The point being, if it is claimed to have come from the Philippines, then Filipinos must be familiar with it. Granting there are changes in language but definitely there will be remnants of the term. Let’s take the Ilonggo term baladaw (baladao), for example. It means “dagger” and is no longer in use today. However, when we look at the Cebuano and Tagalog dialects we find baraw and balaraw respectively, also referring to daggers. --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 04:52:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: Fw: [Eskrima] kali (beating the dead horse that just doesn't seem die) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net However, no extant pre-modern era records, including by the Spaniards, as well as incidental discoveries on archaeology or other sciences do mention or indicate that Kali was indeed the term for FMA in ancient Philippines. The Spaniards are very meticulous record keepers and during the discovery of the Philippines was a superpower (the Spaniards were some of the best Renaissance fencers during those times). So it would make sense that if Kali was indeed existed during those times, we will see more of it in the Spanish documents. Even the Chinese, who themselves are very meticulous chroniclers, have not mentioned any Kali although they wrote that early Filipinos were indeed superb warriors. I agree with you prof on the misuse of the term as the mother art. This is another point of debate. We are told that Kali comes from a particular dialect. If so how can it then be the mother art of Escrima, Arnis, Estokada of Cebu, Negros, Panay, and Laguna? Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi RJ, I think the reason this horse comes back from the grave every once in a while is because...people are interested in the question about kali/s. I've written elsewhere (Rapid Journal and FMA Digest)about the problems raised by Mirafuente's chapter in Yambao's book. No footnotes, no citations, no references, no idea as to where he got the term kali. On the other hand, I spoke with a senior professor here in the University who told me he had older Ibanag relatives as well, and they spoke of kali as the term used for martial arts. I find this interesting as it may well bolster your point that the term might ne used elsewhere. My friend told me that his relatives came from outside Tuguegarao, so there may be something here. One of the biggest problems with the use of the word kali/s is that there is a tendency to think that the term is the same in times past as it is now. This is something to watch out for, since meanings change over time. No doubt kali now means to dig and kalis means to scrape - and yet in earlier times it meant sword and for some groups, like in GatPUno's citation it still means sword. Thus, both Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor can be said to be both right and wrong. Right in the sense that kali is not used as often today and wrong in that at one time it was used as a term for weapons or skills, and also that meanings have changed so often over time that today's meaning is no longer the same as a hundred, two, three or four hundred years ago. Clearly, if we want to use kali in designating what we do, we have to be specific as to what we mean by the term. BTW, RJ, I agree with you about the (mis)use of the term kali as the purer art. Specifically, it was one time called the mother art of all the Filipino martial arts, and that all the other FMAs are phases or parts of the art, which meant that the master of kali had the complete art...which I think a lot of people will have problems with today. This is going to be another can of worms... Bot --- RJ Garcia wrote: > I sent this yesterday, but it didn't seem to get > through: > > ----- Forwarded Message ---- > From: RJ Garcia > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that > just doesn't seem to really be dead) > > If the term kali is used in respect of one's elders > and instructors, then I am all for it. > > However, as a Filipino living here in Manila, proud > of my roots amidst the popularity of foreign > influences in our modern culture, I just cannot help > but react when I see/hear of things being said about > the history and culture of my country that seem to > be a bit odd. > > I have read Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa > Larong Arnis (roughly, "Knowledge in the Game/Sport > of Arnis"), and although this could well be the > earliest documentation and the best lead on the term > kali, I would have to say that this in itself is > still not categorical proof that it was > traditionally used here in the Philippines. I > believe others in this mailing list would agree when > I say that Philippine history as it is commonly > known is still plagued by revisionism and > exaggerations, starting from the legendary Maragtas > and Code of Kalantiaw (folktales and not really > law), all the way to the depiction of Andres > Bonicfacio brandishing a bolo and wearing bright red > pants (artistic renditions and not historical). And > with all due respect to Yambao and Mirafuente, they > did not offer leads as to where they got the term > kali, which leads the trail cold at that end. > > And to add another anecdote related to this, of the > number of of terms listed in Mga Karunungan sa > Larong Arnis ("pagkalikali", "kalirongan", > "kaliradman", etc.), it stated that "pagkalikali" > was the term used in the Cagayan Valley where the > Ibanag reside. My grandmother is a full Ibanag, who > grew up in Tuguegarao (capital of Cagayan Valley), > and she never heard of the term. When I went there > to Tuguegarao last Christmas, I talked with some > relatives there, and they do not know of any > "pagkalikali", but they do know what arnis is. While > I do concede that it is possible that the term > existed/exists somewhere else in Cagayan valley, > until I happen upon categorical proof of it, I will > not subscribe to it. > > I am not saying that kali as a term related fo FMA > should be forgotten. All I am saying is that it > needs more investigation, for us to truly know it's > place in Philippine history. Like what James Sy > said, we do not dispute the effectivity of any kali > style. What I am disputing is the assertion of some > people that the kali systems we see today are older, > purer FMA systems than the arnis or eskrima systems. > To my mind, all three terms are equals, and the > differences lie in each system, regardless of the > term being used. > > At least, we all are honest about arnis, and eskrima > for that matter, being terms that came about in the > Spanish colonial period. No one is claiming that > arnis or eskrima is more original and older than > others. Can we say the same about kali? > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 09:59:25 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Prof. Adria Jocano, Dodie, Mirafuente (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #130 - 11 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bot, But of course I know Prof. Adria Jocano. Adria always had a nice smile for everybody and very intelligent. Please say hello to her for me. I was about to ask if you know her. I always take a taxi going home from aikido practice between 9:00-10:00 PM from near the Quiapo church. Since Dodie lived on my way, I always invited him to ride with me. Dodie's kungfu is exceptional. If you happen to bump into Dodie again, please ask him for the spelling of the last name of my kungfu teacher Benito Kuh? (Coo? Co??). I neglected to ask. I studied the snake form of kungfu for a brief period cut short when I immigrated to the US. Re: Yambao's book. CFW Enterprises sent a photographer (back in the late 90s) to New York to take photos for 3 of my manuscripts. We shot more than 1,000 photos. CFW was supposed to publish the 3 books but never did. Something went very wrong between me, Mark Wiley (who was at the time one of CFW's editors) and CFW Enterprises. One of the 3 books was my interpretation of Yambao's book. Best regards to all. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/3/2007 6:05:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Dear PG Mat: I would agree with you on this point except that in the case of Mr. Mirafuente's chapter on the history of arnis, the omission of the bibliography is noteworthy since he is a member of the local historical association and judging from the brief bio-notes an academic as well as a fighting man. This is not to judge him or cast aspersions on his capabilities, only that the lack of sources is a bit frustrating to later researchers. But then, what would I know? My own review and commentary focused on this chapter because of the historical questions it raises (such as those we're discussing right now) and not on the rest of the text, including the merits of the techniques discussed therein. At the time I wrote it, I didn't feel I had the expertise yet to tackle the technical aspects of the rest of the book (I still don't). (Although that would be an interesting project by itself - not only a magazine length article, but perhaps a book-length compilation of commentaries on various techniques shown from the points of view of different practitioners. What do you think? Could it be done?) I would rather that the review, critical as it may be, would lead us to probe further into the questions I raised - or even better raise new questions. I should perhaps add that as an anthropologist, I am asked questions from other local practitioners about the origins and cultural background of our beloved arts, so my own efforts should be seen as bumbling and imperfect attempts at answering their questions. Hence my ventures into this terrain. On two more personal notes: PG, do you remember a certain Dodie? I met him a few months ago and I just remembered now that he said that if I ever got in touch with you via email, that he says hello. He was active in the kung-fu scene in the 70s (not sure if Ling Nam) and also trained with GM Lanada (long lost classmate?) Since you were also once a member of the faculty of Adamson University, do you ever meet Prof. Adria Jocano of the Department of Chemistry? Respectfully, Bot ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 07:41:15 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Prof. Adria Jocano, Dodie, Mirafuente (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #130 - 11 msgs To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To PG Mat, Bot, kapatid Abon and interested academicians, on Yambao's book and interpretation thereof. PG Mat, really regrettable that your interpretation never got to see the light of day or print; maybe it is not too late. FWIW, my friend Rey Galang did get to publish one. See my article wherein you guys also figure prominently: http://www.filipinofightingartsintl.com/Publications/martial_arts/fma_books.html Please keep up the erudite and informative discussion. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com Pananandta@aol.com wrote: Bot, But of course I know Prof. Adria Jocano. Adria always had a nice smile for everybody and very intelligent. Please say hello to her for me. I was about to ask if you know her. I always take a taxi going home from aikido practice between 9:00-10:00 PM from near the Quiapo church. Since Dodie lived on my way, I always invited him to ride with me. Dodie's kungfu is exceptional. If you happen to bump into Dodie again, please ask him for the spelling of the last name of my kungfu teacher Benito Kuh? (Coo? Co??). I neglected to ask. I studied the snake form of kungfu for a brief period cut short when I immigrated to the US. Re: Yambao's book. CFW Enterprises sent a photographer (back in the late 90s) to New York to take photos for 3 of my manuscripts. We shot more than 1,000 photos. CFW was supposed to publish the 3 books but never did. Something went very wrong between me, Mark Wiley (who was at the time one of CFW's editors) and CFW Enterprises. One of the 3 books was my interpretation of Yambao's book. Best regards to all. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/3/2007 6:05:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Dear PG Mat: I would agree with you on this point except that in the case of Mr. Mirafuente's chapter on the history of arnis, the omission of the bibliography is noteworthy since he is a member of the local historical association and judging from the brief bio-notes an academic as well as a fighting man. This is not to judge him or cast aspersions on his capabilities, only that the lack of sources is a bit frustrating to later researchers. But then, what would I know? My own review and commentary focused on this chapter because of the historical questions it raises (such as those we're discussing right now) and not on the rest of the text, including the merits of the techniques discussed therein. At the time I wrote it, I didn't feel I had the expertise yet to tackle the technical aspects of the rest of the book (I still don't). (Although that would be an interesting project by itself - not only a magazine length article, but perhaps a book-length compilation of commentaries on various techniques shown from the points of view of different practitioners. What do you think? Could it be done?) I would rather that the review, critical as it may be, would lead us to probe further into the questions I raised - or even better raise new questions. I should perhaps add that as an anthropologist, I am asked questions from other local practitioners about the origins and cultural background of our beloved arts, so my own efforts should be seen as bumbling and imperfect attempts at answering their questions. Hence my ventures into this terrain. On two more personal notes: PG, do you remember a certain Dodie? I met him a few months ago and I just remembered now that he said that if I ever got in touch with you via email, that he says hello. He was active in the kung-fu scene in the 70s (not sure if Ling Nam) and also trained with GM Lanada (long lost classmate?) Since you were also once a member of the faculty of Adamson University, do you ever meet Prof. Adria Jocano of the Department of Chemistry? Respectfully, Bot ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 10:49:17 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Blowgun Competition Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The 4th Annual Sport Blowgun Competition is scheduled on June 9, 2007 (Saturday) at the Northampton County Park, Bear Swamp Archery complex in Upper Mt. Bethel, PA. Competitors and observers are welcome. The zarbatana (blowgun) was used in the Philippines in ancient times. It is still in use today. I have written a book on the subject Pananandata Guide to Sport Blowguns published by United Cutlery Corporation in early 2000. For details on the competition EDers can email Dave Sustak at _craftsmen@enter.net_ (mailto:craftsmen@enter.net) . Hope you will come. APMarinas Sr. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 10:11:21 -0600 From: Daniel Rutano To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net, eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. - Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #130 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bot, I was reading your post address to PG Mat and asked him if he remembers a certain "Dodie". Do you remember if the guy's last name is "Abadilla"? I used to train at Philippine Aikido Sports Association under Ambrosio Gavileno in the '70s with PG Mat and Dodie Abadilla. GM Lanada was also teaching at the same place at the time. I also remember the time when PG Mat and GM Lanada was taking pictures for the "Arnis Lanada Book". I also train with Dodie at Philippine Chinese Lengui in Caloocan, under Benito Ku. By the way, your teacher GM Elmer Ybanez was my fraternity brother. Anyways, I enjoy reading your post and keep up the good work in propagating our beloved art. Dan --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 12:16:04 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: FMA history Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Just wanted to drop a quick note and thank everyone for their input on the recent subjects of lineage, terminology, and related topics. Being the history buff that I am, I am eating all this up. These are the types of discussions that should be a regular part of this digest. With the amazing range and depth of talent that is represented here, I am getting answers to questions that I've had for years. Again, thank you all, and please, keep it coming. Kim E. Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 12:48:09 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] GM Angel/GM Lazo Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net With all do respect, I am not implying he's Style is bad, nor saying anything to dis-respect anyone. I only noted that I see the difference in two stylist. Who am I?, I am just as surprised to learned that he study under GM Dizon and Angel study under Dizon and both of them has different influences or he called it evolution. I also notice the different in the assertion of strike and execution, footwork and drills. I am impressed to the systematic creation of GM Angels his art of Serrada is what he created after learning from GM Dizon. Then I would say that GM Dizon art is look like Modern Arnis in execution then, becaused if it is look like Illustrisimo style, I saw Rey Galang and Christopher Ricketts during our Seminar in Anaheim and thier style has Uniques characteristic, from stances, to the footwork and drills. While GM Lazo is exact movement more or less of Modern Arnis or Kombatan with Ernesto Presas. Now I guess the question is When did he learn from GM Dizon, did he learned from him after learning Modern Arnis or he learn Modrn Arnis after learning from GM Dizon. I studied for more than 12 Maestro of Paete, and each one of them has similarity and diffirences. But when i teach Cinco Teros I maintain to teach the real stances, strikes that i have learned from the Cinco Teros Maestro. i also teach Siete Colores, that I have learn from different style from Lumban, San Antonio and Paete all of them has similarities and differences. But when i meet few Maestro that learned also from the same Maestro that ilearned from their strike stances and execution is dintinguist who was their instructor by watching them do the strike and stances. Its something wrong with the picture when I think that GM Lazo learned from GM Dizon, and his movement is far from I have seen from other student learned from GM Dizon too. Believed me that surprising to me.. in my opinion GM Angel and GM Lazo is an night and day.. I still cant believed that they came in a pea pod. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com > Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales, may have already known a type of Escrima when at the age of 17 he started training from Dizon, but regardless the art he taught later was primarily the same that Dizon taught to him. Angel put together a corriculum that was simplified. Later it was called Serrada to differentiate it from the other Escrima systems. > Angel's Serrada was something that he came up with, with help from Dentoy. By most all accounts, including what we have just seen here, Angel's Serrada and Dizon's Eskrima are very different. No big surprise there. That is also another observation that Fred Lazo made via email. Not at all alike. Which in no way implies worse, or better, just different... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Thu, 3 May 2007 11:39:32 -0700 (PDT) From: John Montes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Dizon Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bot, That is great news! You are the man! I'll look out for any info you might be able to share with us. That is a very interesting observation from your friend. It would be cool to know whether Roque Dizon has a school and a successor to the system. Damn cool. ~John Bot wrote: Hi John; I managed to contact my friend yesterday. His teacher was one of Dizon's sons, named Roque Dizon. I don't have much other info about the man, only an anecdote from my friend about how much what he learned from Mr. Dizon resembled the Kalis Illustrisimo system (and this was from last year's memories). I have no idea about how to contact Mr. Dizon or whether he was still teaching his father's art (or even if he's still here in Manila!). I'm still asking though... Bot Hi Dennis and Ray, Makes alot of sense. Yes now I recall Punong Guro Bob mentioning to me that Angel modified what he learned a bit. Facts kind of blur in my head sometimes, thanks for clarifying. For some reason these little tidbits of information help me to train better. Maybe it's inspiration that comes from knowing the story. Wow that Dentoy Revillar gets around! I've heard him mentioned alot so I'm interested to read his bio. Thanks again! ~John Dennis wrote: Dizon did not study Decuredas. Ever! He studied from an unnamed hermit, and the art was just called Escrima. The term Decuredas comes from the Doce Pares group, and it refers to the tunnel. Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales, may have already known a type of Escrima when at the age of 17 he started training from Dizon, but regardless the art he taught later was primarily the same that Dizon taught to him. Angel put together a corriculum that was simplified. Later it was called Serrada to differentiate it from the other Escrima systems. Train hard and have fun! Dennis Ray wrote: > Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales, may have already known a type of Escrima when at the age of 17 he started training from Dizon, but regardless the art he taught later was primarily the same that Dizon taught to him. Angel put together a corriculum that was simplified. Later it was called Serrada to differentiate it from the other Escrima systems. > Angel's Serrada was something that he came up with, with help from Dentoy. By most all accounts, including what we have just seen here, Angel's Serrada and Dizon's Eskrima are very different. No big surprise there. That is also another observation that Fred Lazo made via email. Not at all alike. Which in no way implies worse, or better, just different... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com Greetings Guro Abon, I think between Ray and Dennis they nailed it. As I mentioned above, I do recall PG Bob mentioning that Angel had modified the art. Angel seems to have had an interesting and adventurous life, like his teacher before him. And you are most probably right regarding Villabrille, forgive me all. It's not always easy for me to correctly file all of this information in my head! With regard to Fred Lazo's system, when I say "influence" I mean one who he not only learned from but also an art that is part of his foundation. I see your point. No disrespect at all towards GM Lazo or his system, in fact much respect and honor to them. Fred is a very nice guy from email correspondence with him. I see now that you are right Guro Abon when you say an apple is an apple. "Knowledge speaks. Wisdom listens". Please note that I am just a guy who takes an interest in the subject matter. I will have to write all of this down for myself so I don't repeat these questions again in five years! :D Much respect to all systems mentioned here, and many thanks to all of you who have given me clarity. Your input is very valuable to me. Thanks again. Peace, ~John __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 03 May 2007 13:23:36 -0700 From: "Joseph Marana" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Sayoc Kali Seminar LOCATION CHANGE Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To all interested in attending the previously announced Sayoc Kali seminar with Tuhon Chris Sayoc on Saturday, May 5th the location has CHANGED. The seminar will now be held at the Inosanto Academy in Marina del Rey, CA. Please go to www.inosanto.com for more information. Thanks, Joe --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest