Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 07:19:48 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #134 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Maurice, language (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #133 - 12 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 2. Interpretation of Placido Yambao's book (gatpuno@aol.com) 3. Re: Re: kali (james jr. sy) 4. Re: Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 6. Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 7. Re: kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem (james jr. sy) 8. Re: Something upon which I can comment (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 08:43:12 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Maurice, language (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #133 - 12 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Maurice, The language you used re: the discussion on the explanation of the origin of the word kali is out of line and has no place in an intelligent discourse. You have referred to my statement directly. The explanation I presented was on the origin of the word not on the origin of the art. I will give you an example about the phrase you used, "They WON'T explain." Ben Largusa of Villabrille Kali, in an interview published in Inside Kungfu, gave theories, attempts to get at the meaning of the word that only winged an explanation. If they "know but won't explain", how come he was not able to when the question was put to him directly? If you say they they know but won't explain, how come there is complete silence from the masters I referred to? The silence is deafening. I have pointed out the names of systems that I said could not explain the meaning of the word: one of them is Chris (of Sayoc Kali). I know Chris personally, and had given a few lessons in his backyard in Queens, NY back in the mid 70s when his family were still very close to Leo (Gaje Jr. whom I consider a good friend). I also mentioned Kali Illustrisimo, yet I haven't not heard from them. (By the way, Leo and I worked out together very frequently in Queens at the Flushing Meadows Park when arnis was "Arnis, what?" in the early 70s'. When I held a stick fighting tournament in Manhattan in December 1975, only my students and Leo's competed.) I know Rey Galang personally. At the time Mark (Wiley) was writing his book which later bacame titled "Filipino Martial Culture", Rey came with Mark to my backyard (to interview me) in Queens, NY. Rey is the most well known Kali Illustrisimo practitioner in the US, yet I have not heard of any explanation from their end on the origin of the word. I started writing because I read Philippine history being interested in the Filipino martial arts. It is said that "If you don't read history, you are bound to repeat it." There was very little to read so I started writing. I did not want to repeat what my Filipino ancestors failed to do. I had the option to use the word kali, since in my village where I grew up in Pambuan, Gapan, Nueva Ecija, it was a common word. My granduncles sometimes will say kalis even if they mean gulok (bolo). I decided not to use the word kali for the name of my family's system because it has a bad connotation and linked to the ugly part of kali. You had just demonstrated the ugly part of kali. There is an intelligent discourse going on and you introduced a language that should not be used. I had explained the ugly part of kali which you have just demonstrated in my article in Inside Kungfu magazine. Perhaps, heads of systems who read this will come out with their explanation of the word kali. If they have a better explanation than mine, I would like to read it. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/5/2007 6:02:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: to answer why some "masters" have KALI in their name, and they cant explain it. i say bullshit. they can explain. they WONT explain. in 1970 most of these ex-eskrimador, probably never heard of placido yambao's book, but they dam sure heard of danny inosantos. book ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 05 May 2007 09:45:48 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Interpretation of Placido Yambao's book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net PG Mat and Kapatid Jay, Its funny you guys talking aout this. Last year my student and I was talking about the Book that Kapatid Rey Glang published about the Placido Yambao/s book. I said is nicely done, but I only noticed that everything is really interpretation of Kapatid Rey Galang. The book that Yambao's wrote is showing Clasical Luzon "Largo mano" styles. What Kapatid Rey Galang interpretation is based on the "Visayan footwork, and far from the original stances on the Yambaos book. So I told them that I will talk to Kapatid Rey first before it beome a problem later, if is okay with him, I would love to put a Video of Interpretation of the "Classical Largo Mano" demonstrated on Yambao's Book. All of the strike and the stances are very familiar to me, since my line of study in Arnis is "Largo Mano" and "Corto Mano". Its is nice to see other interpretation of the book. This is nice if more of us can put our interpretaion of the book to compare and see the closest look of Yambao's arts. We wereplanning to shoot the interpretation this July in the Philippines in front of other Largo Mano Grandmaster of Laguna so we can asked them too, what they thnik about it and their personal theory of the stances and strikes. My idea is to capture the picture stances of the old book like Kapatid Rey did, and then start analizing from there on. We are not following what Kapatid Rey wrote and his analitical photograph in his book. It will be totally our own version. Hope to share it to everyone when is done. May I mention one of the differences between "Visayan Practitioner is the used of" Tiay stance, which the back foot is always in tip toe stances. In Luzon style of Arnis/Eskrima all of us, is flat footed, mean grounded to the floor, and the used of 45 degree and 90 degree turn of the feet is common to us. I noticed GM or Kabaroan Estallilla , GM Leo Giron, PG Mat Marinas himself and is all Flat footed in our footwork and you can see it in our stances. We only tip toe after the strike or after the blow if we are in the stationary position. Well the strike we always strike full streched arm, which is signifant to the styles Largo mano. I am not saying we never bend our elbow, it depent if we go inside the Corto Ranges then we bent our elbow to compensate the distance. Anwyay I just want to tell you all its so funny to me that other GM is thinking of doing this. Well goodluck and hope to see your interpretation. We used to call the strike the same as Placido yambao, so it not hard for me to interpret them at all. Thank you, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com Message: 1 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Fri, 4 May 2007 00:39:21 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Yambao's book and interpretation (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #131 - 15 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jay, Thanks for your interest in my work. There is some story behind the book. Read on. Back in 1991, I received a call from Rey (Galang) asking if I would be willing to talk to a former student of mine, Robert Torres. I said, “OK.” Rey put him on. I was asked if I would be interested in doing a videotape for them on Placido Yambao’s book. From what was said on the phone, “You (meaning me) are the only one who can interpret the movements and the spirit of the techniques.” I didn’t say much and asked them to call me back in 2 weeks. I wanted to make sure that the call was not a joke. They called back at the appointed time but I declined to do the tape. Based on the request, I surmised that at the time Rey had not put enough time on the study of the book. Otherwise, they would not have asked me to do the videotape. CFW Enterprises, despite what went wrong (between me, Mark, and CFW) wanted to publish my book on the interpretation of Yambao’s work. But I didn't like the terms they offered. So, I declined the offer. I have shot the photos in the book 3 times over and I am going to re-shoot it again. But this time, only my son, Mt Jr., and I will be in the book. You see Jay, I have not given up on the book. You might still get to review it :-) Thanks again. APMarinas Sr. To PG Mat, Bot, kapatid Abon and interested academicians, on Yambao's book and interpretation thereof. PG Mat, really regrettable that your interpretation never got to see the light of day or print; maybe it is not too late. FWIW, my friend Rey Galang did get to publish one. See my article wherein you guys also figure prominently: ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. =0 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 06:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Tausugs are associated with Kuntaw. The command is tanghal kalis. However, the command refers to the blade, not Kali the FMA. ken jo wrote: greetings! I respect the opinions and some of the facts and stories that Mr. Celestino C. Macachor and Ned Nepangue M.D. presented in their individual papers though this does not necessarily mean that I agree with them.. in mindanao, the land where i was born, where i grew up and the land that i love, we have friends among the Muslims and they have informed us that the TAUSUG term for their bladed weapons is indeed KALIS. (fyi: the TAUSUGs are the most feared warrior tribe among Muslim Filipinos - Nur Misuari, ARMM Governor Parouk Hussin and Basilan Governor Wahab Akbar are some of the noteworthy Tausug personalities). Most of the Tausugs are based in Basilan, Sulu and Tawi-tawi. In the Philippine military/para-military [Armed Forces of the Philippines, ROTC, CMT/CAT, etc.], the term for the ceremonial saber or any other bladed weapon/sword is KALIS.. [Saludo Kalis! (Salute with the Sword/Saber!)- or words to that effect..] [[fyi: Placido Yambao wrote Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis in 1957 first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA). According to Bot Jocano (2004): It is probably this book that is the source of many of the history sections of most arnis books available in the market today. This material is found in the chapter entitled Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis and what was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book. Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI during the early years of the Spanish conquest. In particular, mention is made of the arrival of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or chieftains and their followers. Legazpis reaction to those demonstrations is presented in the following: Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na ang KALI ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa sarili sa larangan ng digmaan (p.10) (Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not only a game and a measure of passing time but also an effective art of self-protection in the realm of warfare".) ]] about that book and its author - the controversial piece Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis (actually an introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was the first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the UP Diliman Library.. now as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year. ang matagal ko nang gustong itanong noon pa.. ano po ba ang istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao noon at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang terminolohiyang "kali" sa panahong 1957? -- sa japan kasi, 1936 lang naging "official Japanese term" yung word na karate -- to cite (got this somewhere): In 1936, at nearly 70 years of age, Funakoshi Gichin opened his own training hall. The decision of Funakoshi Gichin to change the kanji used for writing the name of the art karate was confirmed at the so-called Meeting of the Masters, which included Chojun Miyagi, Chomo Hanashiro, Kentsu Yabu, Chotoku Kyan, Genwa Nakasone, Choshin Chibana, Choryo Maeshiro and Shinpan Shiroma. Gichin did this to get karate accepted by the Japanese budo organisation Dai Nippon Butokukai . In a time of rising Japanese nationalism (Japan was occupying China), Funakoshi knew that a foreign art would not be accepted. Thus this body agreed to change the original kanji which meant Tang hand from the Chinese Tang dynasty or by extension, Chinese hand reflecting the Chinese influence on the style to the current way of writing which means empty hand karate-do thus meaning the way of the empty hand. ..anyway just curious if this had an effect on how our early manongs viewed the word "kali".. peace to all! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 06:53:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Guru, masguru, James Sy. (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #123 - 5 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In the 10,000-word Hiligaynon-English dictionary by Fr. John Kaufmann's (published 1934), the following entries were found: Kali - to dig/dig up the ground Kalis - 1) Malayan dagger, creese or cris, a sword used by the Moros; 2) chalice 3) to even out, strike or level off what is above measure or superfluous. To expound on the stand that Kali does not stand for FMA in Visayan (Cebuano, Ilonggo, and Karay-a), we have terms such as ginbalbal, ginwaswasan, ginlampusan, ginhanot, ginpatik, ginbaston, ginyaming, etc. for an attack with a stick and gin-utod, ginlabo, gintigbas, ginhagbas, gintuslok, and ginbuno for an attack with a blade but no ginkali except for the act of digging the fields. No non-Visayan speaking individual can argue with that. The traditional (i.e. daily use) of ginkalis to scrape or level off something as used by the Visayans is particularly used to describe the act of leveling grain produce like rice, corn or beans in the gantangan (measuring container). You can only kalis when the agricultural product is overflowing. This is a requirement for the use of the word (quantity). You can not kalis something that is not overflowing. Or stated differently, you can only kalis something that is overflowing. Another usage is figurative, that is in reference to the situation when a person's patience is tested far too long and it is time to level off "puno na gani dapat kalison" or in Tagalog, pag puno na ang salop dapat nang kalisin. This info was verified by Ms. Milagros Lachica, former research associate at the Center for West Visayan Studies at the University of the Philippines-Visayas (UP-V) in Iloilo City. Same data verified by people who work in the fields and some hacienderos who employ these people. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: I wrote an article on the origin of the word kali in the June 2005 issue of Inside Kungfu. In my article I traced the origin of the word kalisin to kali. However, James Sy said the word kalisin has nothing to do with the FMA. I would not fault Mr. Sy for not knowing the relationship between the two words. Even heads of systems such as Ben Largusa couldn't explain the origin of the word kali. Chris (Sayoc Kali) couldn't explain it either. So does Kali Illustrisimo. None among those who use the word kali as part of their system's name could explain the word kali. They had at best theories that does not do anything but wing an explanation. I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew originated from Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and Sanskrit words back in 1898.) Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali. Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation is usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, Mr. Sy couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship. When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) layers of defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This should be explanation enough. Mr. Sy mentioned a few names of teachers in his email. I was a former professor and board reviewer in Chemical Engineering at Adamson University in Manila from 1963 to 1973. Tagalog is my dialect. I speak both literary and contemporary Tagalog. Best regards to all EDer's APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 4/30/2007 6:02:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Kalis, as in Kalisun (Ilonggo/Hiligaynon) and Kalisin (Tagalog) - to scrape, used in daily life, has nothing to do with FMA. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 06:56:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Master Inosanto said Kali is a contraction of Kamot and lihok, Visayan (i.e. Cebuano) terms, not Indian. Does Kali in these words mean blade? Or maybe The Goddess of Destruction? What is the basis of these comparisons? If it is just because of the word kali within these words then this wont be enough proof linguistically speaking. If the only consideration in relating words would be their similarity then maybe someday somebody will just say that Kali came from California. Suspectedtheorizedhypothesizedpostulatedspeculatedcan be or can be not until there is enough evidence beyond reasonable doubt to support the suspicion. In Arnis: A Question of Origins in Rapid Journal Vol. 2 No. 4 1997, Prof. Felipe Bot P. Jocano Jr. of the Anthropology Department of the University of the Philippines-Diliman wrote, There has to be documented proof that one came from the other. What form should this proof take? Authenticated documents certainly are one of the best pieces of evidence - if such could be found, and proven to be genuine. When it is postulated that FMA originated from the Indian Martial Arts the already messy and chaotic debate whether Kali is indeed Filipino or Indonesian is further clouded and strays us from the truth farther. If we hope for this theory to be taken seriously what we need would be more than supposition. bgdebuque wrote: I think you are on the right track. It appears that the ancient martial art from South India of Kalaripayattu have spawned several martial arts-based performing arts, all of which have "kali" affixed to it - KOLKALI, VELAKALI, THACHOLIKALI and KATHAKALI. KOLKALI is particularly interesting. According to Wikipedia: "The dance performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress." Kalaripayattu is now highly-suspected as the possible origin of Shaolin Kung Fu. It would not be highly remote that it could also be the origin of the FMA. If that is really the case, the use of "Kali" to refer to the FMA would not be without basis at all. > > I did some research on the origin of Tagalog words - about 15 years at the > big public library in Manhattan (NY). I pored through Sanskrit and Indian > dictionaries to find which among the Tagalog words that I knew > originated from > Sanskrit. I found quite a few. (Indeed, a book was written on Tagalog and > Sanskrit words back in 1898.) > > Perhaps, it would help if I explain the relations between kalisin (meaning > to scrape) and the word/fighting art kali. > > Mr. Sy did a direct Tagalog to English translation. A direct translation > is > usually off the mark because something is lost in between. In his case, > Mr. Sy > couldn't see the relationship. Here is the relationship. > > When a kali man or a FMA man fights, they try to remove (scrape) > layers of > defenses of the enemy so he can get to the enemy's body. This should be > explanation enough. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check. Try the Yahoo! Mail Beta. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 06:58:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Dr. Mark V. Wiley and Dr. Ronald A. Harris made their research in the Philippines, and not in India, because what they were told in the US is that Kali is a contraction of the Visayan words kamot and lihok. Nevertheless, Dr. Ned Nepangue and Mr. Macachor dared to look further. In their upcoming book, Cebuano Escrima: Beyond the Myth, they have touched on the proposed FMA-IMA angle and why such proposition cant stand rigid academic scrutiny. I dont want to preempt the book but Ill assure you, the thorough discussion will put to light the otherwise misty equation. Its a good read. Makes you think deeper. I know cause Ive read it. And I highly recommend it. bgdebuque wrote: They should have looked further. To the place where most European, Middle Eastern and Malay languages came from - India. At this very moment, there are several martial-based performing arts in South India which have the phrase "kali" attached to their names. All of them evolved from the South Indian martial arts of Kalaripayattu - probably, also the origin of Shaolin Kung Fu. > > Foreigners such as Dr. Mark V. Wiley and Dr. Ronald A. Harris, both of the > USA, had conducted their research on the term Kali in the Philippines and > their research concur with what the locals had to say. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 07:00:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kali does exist but not in ancient Philippines as it is hyped. It exists as a modern coinage. Kali does exist but not as the mother art of all FMA as is often claimed otherwise Filipinos will be using the term and there wont be any debate on the terms historical personality (i.e. age, origin, etc.). The above mentioned GMs have the respect of the FMA community, no doubt considering their contributions to the arts. Theyre more like family. GM Ben Largusa and GM Dan Inosanto are students of GM Floro Villabrille. GT Leo T. Gaje Jr. and GM Inosanto had also an association. The Sayoc Tujons and the Atienza Guros trace their lineage to GT Gaje. An interesting note is that GM Villabrille is the nephew of GM Antonio Ilustrisimo. In Dr. Wileys book, we see that Tatang Ilustrisimo originally used the term Escrima and only started using the term Kali later when foreigners began to travel to the Philippines to train in Kali. The Ilustrisimo system was known by different names in different times among them Olisitrisimo, Kali Ilustrisimo, and the latest, Kalis Ilustrisimo. Masters Antonio Tony Diego and Christopher Ricketts made clear in their book that the Kalis in the style name refers to the blade in Tatangs art and not the proverbial Kali mother of all FMA. We know that GM Villabrilles diploma says Escrima, and not Kali. The venerable master could have opted to use Kali, as per Yambao to liken it to the past. Everybody would agree that the Kali is here to stay and the teachers who use it will continue to use it. However, we can also agree that so long as there are living GMs from the Philippines, their families, descendants, relatives, students, friends, associates, as well as researchers, historians, writers, etc. that have ties with them, the stand that Arnis and Escrima are the terms that the Filipinos used and are still using will continue. Rich Acosta wrote: I'm sure that you are just being facetious. I think we can all agree to disagree and move forward. The name Kali exists and it is here to say. I don't think that any of the Filipino Grandmasters and Masters, such as GM Leo Gaje, GM Vicente Sanchez, GM Ben Largusa, GM Dan Inosanto, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Guro Carl Atienza, that have chosen to propagate the art of Kali would change the name of their styles/systems and organizations just to appease the nay-sayers anyway. We should divert our effort to actually doing something positive for the Filipino Martial Arts, instead of beating this (very) dead horse, and getting nowhere IMO. Rich Acosta ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org ----- Original Message ----- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Looking for earth-friendly autos? Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 07:02:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Something upon which I can comment To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In page 15 of "The Filipino Martial Arts" by Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto, under the heading Lineage, it reads, The following are a list of my instructors in the Filipino martial arts who warrant special recognition. I dedicate this book to them and to the following people (in alphabetical order) that have greatly influenced my life. I believe the misunderstanding came in Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto listed 35 individuals and 2 groups in his lineage. In this case Lineage not having been highlighted as a heading. I apologize for the typo slip. Guro/Sifu Richard Bustillo and Atty. Dionisio Caete would definitely fall under the people who influenced Master Inosanto. On pages 27-29 of the same book, entitled John LaCoste, the following lines used the term Escrima or a derivative thereof, no Kali was mentioned throughout the write up: Of all the Escrima masters his version of carenza, Escrima shadow boxing. What styles of Escrima have you studied? he pulls one of the Eskrimadors in front of him The Escrimador delivers Most Escrima styles have 12 numbers the two were to appear on an NBC-TV special on Escrima the boys who may someday be Escrimadors themselves. Stocktons oldest and most venerated Escrima master. Well, that is just basing on GM Inosantos book. Beyond that, you would have more knowledge on GM LaCostes and GM Inosantoss relationship and the old mans actual usage of term. Yes, GT Gaje is known by Arnisadors here in Negros and Panay and Escrimadors in Cebu. Dog Brothers Martial Arts (DBMA) of course had proven itself by higher consciousness through harder contact. Like in the old days in the Philippines where the validity of a style is tested by actual combat. For me, impure would be better replaced by eclectic in describing DBMA. DBMA is honest in declaring that it is a hybrid art. Even FMAers in the Philippines know the exploits of the Dog Brothers and their search for truth. Marc Denny wrote: Woof James Jr. Sy: As someone who has been on the periphery of this discussion for many years, I usually have the wisdom to avoid speaking on the substance and merits of it as befits a clueless American Anglo. That said, I do believe I can contribute here to the particular point which you make here: > "Yet many who moved in the early part of the last century to the US > refferred to their art as Kali. Not all but a significant group." > > It would help alot if you can please name the significant group. > > In "The Filipino Martial Arts," Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto listed 35 > individuals and 2 groups in his lineage. Of these, only 2 individuals and > 1 group were associated with the term Kali, namely GM Floro Villabrille > and GM Ben Largusa, a student of GM Villabrille and the San Franciso Kali > Group. The others were as follows, > > Master Pedro Apilado - Escrima > Pepe Montano Arca - Escrima > Vincent Arca - Escroma > Richard Bustillo - Escrima > Atty. Dionisio Caete - Escrima > The Caete Brothers - Escrima > Master Angel Cabales - Escrima > Stockton Escrima Group - Escrima > Master Regino Ellustrisimo - Escrima > Master Leo Giron - Escrima > Master John Lacoste - Escrima > Master Pacual Ovales - Escrima > Master Braulio Pedoy - Escrima > Guro Narrie Babao - Arnis > Guro Dentoy Revillar - Escrima > Master Jack Santos - Escrima > Guro Max Sarmiento - Escrima > Master Sam Tendencia - Arnis > Guro Gilbert tenio - Escrima Speaking as a long-time student of Guro Inosanto, I am rather sure that I often have heard him speak of his principal teacher, Manong John Lacoste as using the term Kali as well as Eskrima. Those who have spent time with Guro Inosanto know well the importance of Manong Lacoste for him. Guro/Sifu Richard Bustillo was a student of Guro I., not a teacher and off the top of my head I don't remember where Diony Canete fits in all this. Also to be noted in this context is that Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje, whose Pekiti Tirsia is one of the 5 principal Filipino systems of Inosanto Blend, is a strong advocate of the use of the term Kali. Although thanks to my wife's organizational skills I cannot lay my hands on it at the moment, Punong Guro Edgar Sulite's book "Masters of Arnis, Kali and Eskrima" contributes to the conversation. In closing, speaking for the record as the , , , ahem , , , founder of Dog Brothers Martial Arts, which might fairly be described as an impure Filipino Martial Arts system: IMHO the naysayers of the term have not explained away the introduction of the Yambao book. We make no claims about Kali being the mother art or anything like that. In addition to the fact that we are clueless Americans, we use the term Kali because: a) my teacher Guro Dan Inosanto uses it, b) because here in America (and Europe where we have substantial presence as well) the term is well-known, and c) in my very humble opinion, what we think of as Kali is influenced by Silat i.e. that there are some differences between kali and eskrima/arnis. Please do not ask me to expound-- I lack the suicidal wish necessary to answer such a question. :-) The Adventure continues, Guro Marc Denny/Crafty Dog Founder/Head Instructor/blah blah Dog Brothers Martial Arts _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest