Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 06:54:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #138 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Maurice, language (maurice gatdula) 2. Re: The Indian Connection (jay de leon) 3. Gatpuno Abon, karate,kungfu in the Phil before 1972 (Pananandta@aol.com) 4. Indians in the Philippines (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #137 - 2 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Re: The Indian connection (aby paul) 6. Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis book (Lawrence, Marc J.) 7. Re: Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. & Mirafuente(Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #127-13 msgs (james jr. sy) 8. Re: Florante at Laura, James Sy (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #127 - 13 msgs) (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 10:47:10 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Maurice, language Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net manong, just like the martial arts have their own styles, there own prefernce to fighting and teaching, we FMA people have our own philosophy about this martial arts. some people are very intellctual and very friendly, and they consider this good martial arts, or good martial arts character, i was raised differently. to me, we will give respect to a man because of his age, his skill, his accomplishments, his character, etc. etc. which i do that, but i cannot approved of disrespect to the philippine martial arts, i dont care who did it. i might go farther, to say, i only respect good skill in fighting, because in the martial arts (any fighting arts) you have no choise but to respect a man who can beat you. you dont have to like him, you dont have to respect him, but in his face, you will _always_ respect that man. but i'm not going to say this, we all know it. i respect our educated brothers who put the FMA in the world to see and read about. it helps us all out in finding new students when more people know, what is the filipino arts, and how effective they are. many of the people i criticise are very respected in the FMA world, and some are even old teachers of mine, but when i see something wrong, i owe it to myself to be true to myself, even if it makes me look ungrateful to those heros. (i just deleted some stuff i was going to say), because i know how thin skin some martial artists can be, but let me say this: i am from washington DC. i been fighting in karate tournaments since 1981, many times in new york, new jersey, more times than you can know. i have friends who have black belts under almost every FMA guro on the east coast, and i been around this area since 1981, so i know when those arts was still being called arnis, TAE KWON DO, etc. please dont insult me to ask me to act like my memory is wrong. many people who criticise me actually know me, but dont remember that they know me for different reasons, and i prefer it like that. because i'm the kind of guy who will show up at their school. speaking of thin skin. my grandfather use to say, as your fighting gets better your skin gets thicker. and he's talking about words. when you can fight well, it takes more words to make you upset or feelings hurt. when your insulted easy, it says something about your fighting ability, and this is very important to my philosophy about "martial character". i am from a place where people are not friendly, martial artists teachers question each others skill out loud, and true martial respect exists. my school is in a place where my students cannot be cheltered from rudeness and hostile, and that is not the kind of teacher i am. when the student is wrong, i tell him. when another teacher pissed me off i will go to his place and tell him in person. i consider this to be good martial character, not to smile in his face and talk behind his back, which is how women act. so i will apologize for sounding disrespectful to my manong. i read all your books, and you are one of my childhood pinoy heros. but i will not apologize becuase i dont believe all i hear. and i would like to say to the FMA person in america, our philosophy will not allow a person to go unchallenged if he makes claims as a martial teacher. and even though you live in america, there's still some people here who will call you to the door on it. this is the reason why you dont have filipinos back home talking about blind princesses, robots and "secret arts finally revealed". about the history of some masters, i think respect for our older masters is the reason we dont talk much about it. (death matches?) if somebody wants to be a FMA teacher, you must be willing to be challenged on your words and style--even on the internet. many people will hide behind reputations, popularity, big organizations, STUDENTS, and tough talk. but a person can always be reached, if he wants you. i will give an example of a well respected FMA master who is protected from challenge because he is loved and respected: remy presas. my closest friends come from modern arnis, but you will never hear somebody say, modern arnis is mcdojo. but for FMA styles, the worst arnis people i have seen comes from modern arnis. i am the person who will say it, when nobody will. there are good fighters in modern arnis, but when we are talking about poor arnis teachers, you will find many, many unqualified teachers in modern arnis. so which one should we respect? the guy who tells a students, oh yeah, go study from that MA guy down the street? or the one who speaks his mind and says, no you should travel to the next town over and look up that doce pares guy. as FMA, we are suppose to be the REAL world martial arts people. we cannot live up to this if we are to political to call a spade a spade. "ugly part of kali": the ugly part of kali, i believe you are talking about the feud. isnt this the reason why FMA is so great? was all the masters friends? i have to say, what is worst, one eskrimador challenged the story of another, cussing him, or killing him in one these "death match"? you have to agree with me, the ugly part of FMA should be killing another master, right? where are the students of these dead masters? i believe the ugly part of KALI is teachers who promote masters and teachers who cant fight his way out of a paper bag. another ugly part of KALI is to learn from a master and claim his art as your own when you dont give him credit. ugly part of KALI--lie about the history of your art. i advertise kali, karate, ect, but i dont teach those things. when the students come in i tell them, this is generic word, and kuntaw, eskrima, jow ga kung fu is what i teach. the student can leave if he is disappointment, but not after i have to de-program all the garbage he read about in the magazine and internet. now, that is ugly, me, a man who been doing FMA for 30 years, and i get called "ignorant" by some non-FMA who been reading dan inosanto articles about pananjakman and he looks down on arnis. no, i disagree with you, master marinas, my words are not the ugly part of ARNIS, they are the part of ARNIS that keeps most of us on our toes. you know from the philippines, a fight might always be around the corner if you teach, so only the best teach. but here in the US, when people are afraid to challenge and disagree? so the result is, teachers who get certified in 3 days, "Master's exams" "tapi tapi masters" guys like "punong guro roger marsh" (google him on bullshido), study-by-clips-websites. that is ugly. people who know me, will say i am very friendly and nice guy. but if i think your talking bs, i'm going to say, your talking bs. we have great fighting arts, because masters before us stayed on their feet to improve, compare (challenged) and improve some more. how many times did those masters hear, bullshit, i'm better than you. rivalry, enemies, feud, and grudge match. this is the ture history of FMA, i dont care what the books say, we owe our arts to these things, and they are not ugly. Message: 1 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 5 May 2007 08:43:12 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Maurice, language (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #133 - 12 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Maurice, The language you used re: the discussion on the explanation of the origin of the word kali is out of line and has no place in an intelligent discourse. You have referred to my statement directly. The explanation I presented was on the origin of the word not on the origin of the art. I will give you an example about the phrase you used, "They WON'T explain." Ben Largusa of Villabrille Kali, in an interview published in Inside Kungfu, gave theories, attempts to get at the meaning of the word that only winged an explanation. If they "know but won't explain", how come he was not able to when the question was put to him directly? If you say they they know but won't explain, how come there is complete silence from the masters I referred to? The silence is deafening. I have pointed out the names of systems that I said could not explain the meaning of the word: one of them is Chris (of Sayoc Kali). I know Chris personally, and had given a few lessons in his backyard in Queens, NY back in the mid 70s when his family were still very close to Leo (Gaje Jr. whom I consider a good friend). I also mentioned Kali Illustrisimo, yet I haven't not heard from them. (By the way, Leo and I worked out together very frequently in Queens at the Flushing Meadows Park when arnis was "Arnis, what?" in the early 70s'. When I held a stick fighting tournament in Manhattan in December 1975, only my students and Leo's competed.) I know Rey Galang personally. At the time Mark (Wiley) was writing his book which later bacame titled "Filipino Martial Culture", Rey came with Mark to my backyard (to interview me) in Queens, NY. Rey is the most well known Kali Illustrisimo practitioner in the US, yet I have not heard of any explanation from their end on the origin of the word. I started writing because I read Philippine history being interested in the Filipino martial arts. It is said that "If you don't read history, you are bound to repeat it." There was very little to read so I started writing. I did not want to repeat what my Filipino ancestors failed to do. I had the option to use the word kali, since in my village where I grew up in Pambuan, Gapan, Nueva Ecija, it was a common word. My granduncles sometimes will say kalis even if they mean gulok (bolo). I decided not to use the word kali for the name of my family's system because it has a bad connotation and linked to the ugly part of kali. You had just demonstrated the ugly part of kali. There is an intelligent discourse going on and you introduced a language that should not be used. I had explained the ugly part of kali which you have just demonstrated in my article in Inside Kungfu magazine. Perhaps, heads of systems who read this will come out with their explanation of the word kali. If they have a better explanation than mine, I would like to read it. APMarinas Sr. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 6 May 2007 21:26:45 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian Connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It is interesting to note that the poster's "Sriwijaya" is also spelled as Sri-Vishaya, with its seat of government supposedly in what is now Palembang, Sumatra. Sri is an Indian honorific so the inhabitants were really called Vishayans. The Vishayans settled in what is now Cebu, and spread its influence to the outer provinces, forming the Visayas of the Philippines. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com bgdebuque wrote: Like Indonesia and Malaysia, before Islamic Philippines became "Islamic", they were supposed to have been Buddhist and then Hindu. Try to do some readings on the Sriwijaya and Madjapahit Empires and you will be able to see the connection. The physical remnants of these empires can still be found in the Borobodur and Prambanan temples near Jogjakarta in Central Java. Bali Island near the tip of East Java, on the other hand, have remained loyal to Hinduism until now. I have never ever heard of even a hint of this so "connection" throughout my > education in the Philippines, nor in any reading or even stories or > references. We've always been taught that before christianity and islam > came into the Philippines, animalism and worship of anscestors and nature > was the religion of our forefathers. Even today you see these beliefs > intermixed with catholicism. Buddhism's influence came in through the > chinese communities but never propagated out in any significant way, > probably due to the close community and strick prohibitions of intermarriage > in the chinese culture. There is a fair size community of indians in the > Philippines, but they also tend to keep to themselves (and unfortunately > discriminated on as well). _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 00:33:39 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Gatpuno Abon, karate,kungfu in the Phil before 1972 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Manila has always been the hub of martial arts acitivity in the Philippines. The Old Olympic Stadium (as mentioned in Yambao's book) was the site of many stick fighting events from the 1920's to just before WWII. The Olympic Stadium was located at the street Doroteo Jose in Manila close to the movie house called Manila Grand Opera House. Stickfighting tournaments were held at the Stadium during Wednesdays. Boxing matches were held during Saturdays. The Stadium no longer stands, was demolished and gave way to a higher school of learning and and to small stores and businesses. Karate became popular in the early 60's but before that it was all judo and jiujitsu that was being taught at the NBI Academy. However, there were many kungfu teachers who taught behind closed doors. I had personal contact with many martial artists of all disciplines since I studied, lived and worked in and around Manila. Read on. There was a lot going on in the martial arts in the Philippines before 1972. Shorin-ryu karate – In 1966, 8th Dan Sensei Latino Gonzales, head of the Commando Karate Club, published a book on Shorin-ryu. 6th Dan Sensei Seikichi Iha and 5th Dan Sensei Seigi Shiroma did the katas. Most of the applications were done by Sensei Gonzales. The book costs 30 pesos ($15.00, at the time the exchange rate was $1 = 2 pesos). The school was located (where Rizal Avenue ended) at the foot of the McArthur Bridge that spans the Pasig River. Sensei Iha and Sensei Shiroma were later both promoted to higher ranks. Sensei Iha lived in Michigan for a short time. In 1967, shorinryu karate was introduced into the Philippine Military Academy (the equivalent of the US Military Academy at West Point) in a formal ceremony. Karate became very popular in movies in the late 1960’s when Sensei Gonzales’ two sons, Roberto and Rolando, starred in a number of action films. Many of the extras in their movies were from the Commando Karate Club. Both were excellent karatekas. Sensei Gonzales’ 3rd son was very good with sticks. I do not remember his name since the last time I worked out at the Commando Karate Club was in 1972. A big quake Richter scale 7.4 hit Manila and left the headquarters tilting dangerously. The school moved to Espana right across the University of Santo Tomas (UST) a source of many fine young medical doctors then and now. (One of my older brothers graduated from the UST School of Medicine.) The karate school was on the second floor directly above the famous Carbungo Restaurant. Shotokan karate – On the same side of the street about 20 minutes brisk walk was the headquarters of the JKA (Japanese Karate Association) headed by 7th Dan Sensei Junio Sasaki. It was also a famous school. I believe Tony Ferrer, another action movie star, was affiliated with the JKA. Hence, its popularity. The JKA had very good students. Espana street runs perpendicular to Quezon Blvd. Vilcat - Just where the two streets meet and a short distance from it, was another good school in karate. It was not as famous as the other karate schools but they had good students. One of my younger brothers had a black belt from the school. Aikido – Two aikido schools were located in Quezon Boulevard in the same building very close to the Quiapo Church. The Manila Aikido School was on the 2nd floor. The Philippine Aikido School (the school I went to) was on the 3rd floor. Students from the two schools smiled at each other most of the time. Taekwondo – Taekwondo started to become popular in the early 70’s. The only taekwondo school in Manila at the time was in the 4th floor of the same building where my aikido school was. I watched a number of their tournaments and was impressed by their kicks. Modern Arnis – Their school was on the other side of Quezon Boulevard immediately across the Quiapo church. If you have good ears, you can hear the Sunday mass from the school’s window. Yawyan – The school headquarters was on the same side of the street (Rizal Avenue that runs parallel to Quezon Blvd) of the earthquake-damaged old Commando Karate Club School. We were invited a number of times to the school by Nap (Fernandez, founder of the system) to watch them practice. Nap was my classmate at the aikido school. Nap had picture-perfect kicks. His younger brother was just as sharp. (One floor below the school was a pool hall.) Kungfu – In the 1960’s, if your name was not Chinese, or if you are not Chinese, or if you do not have the right friends and family ties, or if you are not rich or a very prominent citizen, it would be difficult to get into a kungfu school. However, starting in 1972, they relaxed their admission rules. As a result, many highly skilled kungfu teachers started to teach openly. One of them was my Sifu Benito Ku who game me instructions in the snake form of kungfu. A couple of my Chinese students at Adamson University also offered to teach me their form of kungfu. Unfortunately, it was time for me to immigrate to the US. Sikaran – Colonel Meliton Geronimo, head of sikaran, was the busiest man during one Asian Karate Championships Tournament held at the Araneta Coliseum in Quezon City. He ran the tournament. Competing in the tournament and eventual heavyweight champion was Bernard Belleza who was also an action movie star. Another Filipino karateka took the gold in one of the lighter weights. Colonel Geronimo introduced sikaran in Stamford, CT in the late 1980’s at my good friend Prof. Ed Brown’s school. I visited Colonel Geronimo in Virginia. With me was the late Jorge Lastra of armas de mano. Judo/jiujitsu – Judo was the main martial taught to agents of the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI, the Philippines’ equivalent of the FBI). Adamson University where I taught was a few minutes walk from the NBI headquarters. Right at the back of Adamson University was the Manila Jai Alai that faces the famous Luneta Park that was a short distance away. Across the street from the Yawyan school was a judo school. I tried to enroll in the school before I went into aikido. But each time, I went to the school it was closed. They had no telephone number. Judo became popular when a Philippine Open National Champion (I think it was Jess Lapid) became an actor. He appeared in several action movies. Tournaments: I went to a number of tournaments ran by the JKA, Vilcat, the taekwondo school, the Commando Karate Club and sikaran. Many of the tournaments were held at the YMCA and at another big building the name of which I had forgotten. They all had good students. Most of the tournaments were well run. However, the last karate tournament I watched ended with chairs flying all over. The competitors disagreed with the judges’ decisions and started throwing chairs. The chairs were easy enough to throw because they were made of light rattan. I was seated at the balcony section and was not near enough to get thrown at. The last JKA tournament I attended was held at the De Lasalle College in Manila. One of my chemistry students at the University who was a black belt with the JKA competed. There were club tournaments and open tournaments. Bigger tournaments were held at the Rizal Coliseum in Manila. The last stick-fighting tournament I competed in was held at the YMCA located just across the Manila City Hall. I won first place. The tournament was very orderly. All the referees and judges had sticks in their hands. Incidentally, in the tournaments that I competed in, there was only one medal. The tournament sponsors cannot afford to give medals/trophies to 2nd and 3rd place winners who were considered losers. I have not mentioned Roland Dantes up to now because when I left the Philippines in 1973, he was not yet well known. Perhaps, it would surprise the reader that many of the martial artists I came in contact with were skilled in more than one martial art. I had a classmate in aikido who was an advanced student in silat, another in kungfu and another in stickfighting. Sensei Latino Gonzales was very good with the stick that he rarely showed, Grandmaster Lanada was a blackbelt in shorin-ryu, Dr. Lengzon was an excellent karateka and stickfighter, Nap was into aikido and at the time he was formalizing Yawyan. There were many others whose name I have forgotten. That was more than 34 years ago. Most of the masters/founders of Philippine stick-fighting kept to themselves at the time. I heard of them only after having lived in the US for several years. There were at least 6 tournaments in Manila each year. There were many demonstrations by each of the above mentioned schools. As for myself, I participated in demonstrations around Manila and in Cavite. Best regards. APMarinas Sr. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 09:27:49 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Indians in the Philippines (Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #137 - 2 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Indians in the Philippines are known to be centered in Cainta, Rizal which is not far from Manila. They are dark skinned and have Caucasian features. I have met a few of them back in the 1960's. But I was not aware of them being discriminated against at the time. In fact, their features were very much admired. Perhaps, recent discrimination against them is based on their business practices? Taking away business opportunities from local residents? Indeed, when I was still living in the Philippines, when a person is dark-skinned and have Caucasian features he is liable to be asked, "Are you from Cainta?" This is no longer the case because many young Fil-Americans have dark skins and Caucasian features. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/7/2007 6:03:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: have never ever heard of even a hint of this so "connection" throughout my > education in the Philippines, nor in any reading or even stories or > references. We've always been taught that before christianity and islam > came into the Philippines, animalism and worship of anscestors and nature > was the religion of our forefathers. Even today you see these beliefs > intermixed with catholicism. Buddhism's influence came in through the > chinese communities but never propagated out in any significant way, > probably due to the close community and strick prohibitions of intermarriage > in the chinese culture. There is a fair size community of indians in the > Philippines, but they also tend to keep to themselves (and unfortunately > discriminated on as well). ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) From: aby paul Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, The 'Kali' which you mentioned in 'Kol-Kali','Thacholi-Kali' means ' play' Kolkali-Stick Play ParichamuttuKali-Sword and Shield play. These all arts are derived for kalaripayattu. The way we say Hindu Godess kali is' Kaali'. Just my few cents Paul > bgdebuque wrote: > I think you are on the right track. > > It appears that the ancient martial art from South India of Kalaripayattu > have spawned several martial arts-based performing arts, all of which have > "kali" affixed to it - KOLKALI, VELAKALI, THACHOLIKALI and KATHAKALI. > > KOLKALI is particularly interesting. According to Wikipedia: "The dance > performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with > special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress." > > Kalaripayattu is now highly-suspected as the possible origin of Shaolin > Kung > Fu. It would not be highly remote that it could also be the origin of the > FMA. If that is really the case, the use of "Kali" to refer to the FMA > would not be without basis at all. --------------------------------- 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with theYahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 10:36:43 -0700 From: "Lawrence, Marc J." To: Cc: Subject: [Eskrima] Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To All, Does anyone have or know of a electronic version of :Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis in 1957 - first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA). There has been much talk about this book and its content. I am sure that there are many who would like to read it. I understand from: "ken jo post that the- book and its author - the controversial piece "Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" (actually an introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was the first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the UP Diliman Library.." ) I do not know if they have an electronic version available as I am in the US it is hard to visit the UP Diliman library. Does anyone besides me think that it would be good book to put out to Project Guttenberg. I am not sure how someone does that, but it does seem to be treasure to all that have read it. Just my thoughts. Marc Lawrence South Bay, Ca, USA --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 04:39:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. & Mirafuente(Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #127-13 msgs To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat, Flaw - Imperfection; a defect; a fault; a crack or fissure; a defect in a legal document that makes it invalid. - The New Grolier Webster International Dictionary of the English Language Vol. 1 A book with a portion of it dealing with history written by a fighting man who is also a member of a local historical association by definition would indeed be flawed, unless otherwise the inclusion of bibliographies in a book was not the norm during those times. JAMES U. SY JR. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: The content of a book (its historical portion) about fighting should not be judged as "flawed" by a historian based on the lack of a bibliography. All the men in the book were fighting men and the book should be judged on that basis. Bibliographies should be left to the academicians not to the fighting men featured in the book. A review should be balanced by a discussion of the merits of the techniques in the book. Placido Yambao asked the readers (begs their pardon) of the book for any omissions that according to him was "... mga pangyayaring hindi batid ng sumulat at hindi rin natatarok ng aming bubot na hagap". (.. occurences outside the reach of their immature minds). The book is written in literary Tagalog. EDers might be interested to know that I was the first to bring attention to Placido Yambao's book Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis in the US. I brought attention to the book in my article The Bolo Punch published in the October 1983 issue of Kick Illustrated (a sister publication of Inside Kungfu that has since ceased publication). Among the famous users of the bolo punch was the Philippines' Ceferino Garcia (who popularized it) , Cuba's Kid Gavilan and more recently Sugar Ray Leonard and Muhammad Ali. Good reading on Philippine history is The Philippine Islands, 1493-1898 by Emma Helen Blair and James A. Robertson. Or you can read the Spanish equivalent Labor Evangelica by Francisco Colin (Madrid, 1663). In Volume 40, there is a description of a Philippine dance -- really a war dance. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/2/2007 9:06:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: According to Prof. Felipe P. Jocano Jr. in his article, "Arnis and the Work of History: A Short Critical Overview" in Vol. 9 No. 2 of Rapid Journal, "Mirafuente's essay on the origin of arnis is worth reading because of its blending of historical, linguistic and literary material. Nevertheless, it also suffers from a serious flaw in that it lacks comprehensive bibliography that would in turn assist future researchers in this area of Philippine history. For example, which vague documents does he refer to in describing the origin of kali? Whom does he consult in quoting from Legaspi’s travels? In which source can we find a reproduction and hopefully a translation of Simon de Anda's 1764 decree? This lack of references mars what is otherwise a well-written essay. At the same time, it provides a point of deprture for future researchers ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 04:43:46 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Florante at Laura, James Sy (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #127 - 13 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat, Indeed it could have been an opportunity if you had met the man himself. Sayang. Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis - First document where Kali was recorded. 1957. Florante at Laura - First document where Arnes was recorded. 1831. By chronology and documentation alone it would appear that Arnes is older than Kali. 1957 was the year of publication but the book must have been written earlier. Even if the year of writing is moved a few years back, it would still fall short. Prof. Jocano has a point when he said that this may not be enough evidence but until additional proof can be forwarded to prove the contrary this is the most verifiable data based on documents. Of course, this point is only one of several arguments that will lead us to the ultimate truth. JAMES U. SY JR. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: James, Florante at Laura was required reading when I was in high school. Indeed, I have a copy here with me in Fredericksburg, Virginia and have been reading it from time to time. There are two stanzas in the book that referred to "arnis". The book was written in literary Tagalog. Incidentally, the book was written by another great man from Bulacan, Francisco Baltazar. The great master Placido Yambao is from Hagonoy, Bulacan. When I was teaching at Adamson University, I had students coming from all over the Philippines. I had one student from Hagonoy, Bulacan (the same town from which Yambao wrote his book) and I asked him if he could look for Placido Yambao for me and I would like to meet him. My student came back and said that Yambao had moved. Juan Aclan was featured in the book Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis. Juan Aclan was from Batangas. I had a student with the last name "Aclan" and he was also from Batangas. I thought I hit the jackpot and would finally meet one of the men in the book. However, he also "cannot be found". "Cannot be found" and "had moved", I interpreted as, they wanted to be left alone. I did not pursue my search any further. I wished I did. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/2/2007 9:06:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: The first recorded use of Kali was Yambao's book in 1957. A friend of mine at the Center for Lasallian Ministries at thew University of st. La Salle (USLS) called to my attention that Florante at Laura by Francisco Balagtas, written in 1831, in verse 223, lone 3, "larong buno't arnes..." This was the first recorded use of Arnis. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest