Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 02:58:34 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #139 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali (james jr. sy) 2. Re: kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem (RJ Garcia) 3. Re: Maurice, language (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #133 - 12 msgs) (james jr. sy) 4. Re: The Indian connection (james jr. sy) 5. GM Cacoy Canete (fwd) (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 04:46:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Prof, A chronological comparison of the documents where Arnes and Kali were first recorded is just one of several arguments that will point us to the road to the truth. If no mitigating evidence can be forwarded to refute the same then we have in our hands one verifiable data that tells us that Kali is indeed not older than Arnis. There are other proofs we can scrutinize. It was said that Kali was banned by the Spaniards. If this was true then no doubt we will be able to find a Spanish document that that will mention Kali by name, otherwise how can the Spaniards ban something without naming it? JAMES U. SY JR. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Felipe Jocano wrote: Hi James: You raise an interesting point: Yambao's reference is traced to 1957, the date of publication (BTW, we have absolutely no idea at all if they were using the term prior to that date) while Balagtas' piece is traceable to 1831 and uses "arnes..." Chronologically and going by documentation alone, arnes is the older term. But is that enough? For me, not yet. As you say, more research... --- "james jr. sy" wrote: > The first recorded use of Kali was Yambao's book in > 1957. > > A friend of mine at the Center for Lasallian > Ministries at thew University of st. La Salle (USLS) > called to my attention that Florante at Laura by > Francisco Balagtas, written in 1831, in verse 223, > lone 3, "larong buno't arnes..." This was the first > recorded use of Arnis. > > In "The Filipino Martial Arts," Master Daniel > "Dan" Inosanto listed 35 individuals and 2 groups in > his lineage. Only GM Floro Villabrille and GM Ben > Largusa, and the San Franciso Kali Group was > associated with Kali. > I'd like to get your input on these observations: With regards to all the six statements below, a major part of our problem is the conflation or confusion between kali/s as a clearly defined martial system (nos. 3-6) and kali/s as a generic term for sword (note posts about Tausug term for sword, my own post about Scott's translation in Barangay that includes kalis as the term for sword). Kalis may have simply referred to sword and swordsmanship in the generic sense at that time and not necessarily a defined martial art with lineages, system name, GMs, etc (I've written about this in Rapid and in FMA Digest). A more contemporary analogy comes to mind: my father sometimes spoke of the bastoneros of Iloilo (I'm half-Ilonggo - my father is from Iloilo). "Magaling sa baston..." is how he would say it (they were good at stick). Baston as I understood it is a generic term for stick, not referring to a specific system for stickfighting. This may also perhaps address points 1 & 2. Thus, a term for sword or skill with sword (speculation on that point) does not necessarily mean that this refers to FMA, only that individuals were known to be skilled with the sword. Another point you raised concerns the work of time on language. If kalis were at one time used as the term for sword (Scott's Barangay) throughout the Visayas and today is used among the contemporary Tausug (another reference is Dr. Jundam's book on Islamic shariah law among the Tausug, in which the term kalis for sword occurs), then from today's point of view, kalis is now an archaic term for sword for modern Visayans while it persists for the Tausug. For Visayan practitioners, eskrima today is the preferred term, on that there is no doubt. Which brings us back to the issue I raised in an earlier post: again, another dimension to the problem is the conflation of archaic and modern uses of the term, leading to assertions 1 & 2 and the contention that it doesn't exist. I submit that in the context of contemporary Visayan languages, kali/s is an archaism - it used to exist but is no longer widely used today. For other language speakers, it still appears to be in use today. The problem is, as you pointed out in 3-6, lies in when it's taken out, dusted off and used to assert a claim of superiority over other systems. Here's another one - if we follow that line of thinking, the terms mentioned in Yambao's book can also be seen as archaisms in their respective languages, having been replaced by arnis as the generic term. Those are specific to their regions. Perhaps speakers of these languages (Ilokano, Ibanag, Pangasinense, etc.) can comment? Also note that kali and its variants seem to have been used at one time in the northern Luzon area if we go by the word lists in Yambao and Inosanto's books. More power to you, your group (interesting pieces in Rapid, nice work!) and to your research! Bot > > On my side, I'm doing my part here in Western > Visayas. As far as the coverage of my research is > concerned, I have found no credible proof that: > > 1. Kali was the pre-Hispanic term for FMA. > 2. Kali is the oldest term for FMA. > 3. Kali is the mother art of all FMA. > 4. Kali, the martial art, is embeded and is a > part of the Filipino culture and language. > 5. Kali is purer than Arnis and Escrima, which > are said to be Spanish. > 6. Kali is blade based while arnis and escrima > are stick based. > > It is my hope that more Filipinos would take up > the challenge and discover their real roots. With > historical relevance that is. It is a large work > but with several people on it, we will be nearer the > truth. > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 06:46:11 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Garcia Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Again, I am not disputing the authenticity of these kali FMA styles. They deserve just as much respect as other Filipino martial art styles, no matter what they are called. However, I do believe that discussions and further research on the history and etymologies of terms in FMA are quite warranted and nothing less than beneficial to our art and to us Filipinos in general. We will only be going nowhere if things like this are kept hanging, unresolved, and swept under the rug. We have to be careful and truthful in how we present ourselves and our art, as we are the bearers of this living cultural heritage of the Philippines. Gumagalang, RJ Garica ----- Original Message ---- From: Rich Acosta To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:10:33 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem I'm sure that you are just being facetious. I think we can all agree to disagree and move forward. The name Kali exists and it is here to say. I don't think that any of the Filipino Grandmasters and Masters, such as GM Leo Gaje, GM Vicente Sanchez, GM Ben Largusa, GM Dan Inosanto, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Guro Carl Atienza, that have chosen to propagate the art of Kali would change the name of their styles/systems and organizations just to appease the nay-sayers anyway. We should divert our effort to actually doing something positive for the Filipino Martial Arts, instead of beating this (very) dead horse, and getting nowhere IMO. Rich Acosta ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org ----- Original Message ----- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 04:58:05 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Maurice, language (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #133 - 12 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat, The Kali controversy has always been a very sensitive issue. Practitioners who use the term Kali feel bad and insulted when the legitimacy of the term is questioned and tend to defend it with unparallel vigor. We hear things like the name doesn’t matter, what’s important is it works; I’ll fight to prove the effectivity of Kali; the roots of the term Kali has been lost in history; Kali came from the Sri Vishaya Empire or Kalaripayattu; etc. In all these cases, the one posting puts his own personality and emotion into the discussion. The case for those who defend the terms Arnis and/or Escrima is the same. At certain points in time, they get engulfed by their emotions and just start breaking down. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet knows that Kali is just of recent usage but sees the situation as one where it would be hard, if not impossible, to recall the use of the term Kali in the present market. Maurice’s was just another case of frustration. It might not have been his intention to attack the messenger. Even in my case, it was not my intention to start this thread on “the horse that was once beaten down.” You see we Pinoys (actually I’m Tsinoy), we are pakisama. Ayaw makasakit ng damdamin ng ibang tao. It is our culture not to go straight to the point unlike our American brothers who are very straight forward. But there are times that one needs to express and defend his beliefs once they are criticized. Nevertheless, we will all agree that an intelligent discussion like this will require more than just emotions. It would be very helpful if someone can give a very credible proof of the real origins of the term Kali and the various claims that go with it. Since I started my research on this subject, no one to memory, not even “authorities,” can offer something concrete. I’m crossing my fingers that maybe, maybe, someone out there can prove me wrong as well as other researchers such as Dr. Nepangue and Mr. Macachor. JAMES U. SY JR. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: Maurice, The language you used re: the discussion on the explanation of the origin of the word kali is out of line and has no place in an intelligent discourse. You have referred to my statement directly. The explanation I presented was on the origin of the word not on the origin of the art. I will give you an example about the phrase you used, "They WON'T explain." Ben Largusa of Villabrille Kali, in an interview published in Inside Kungfu, gave theories, attempts to get at the meaning of the word that only winged an explanation. If they "know but won't explain", how come he was not able to when the question was put to him directly? If you say they they know but won't explain, how come there is complete silence from the masters I referred to? The silence is deafening. I have pointed out the names of systems that I said could not explain the meaning of the word: one of them is Chris (of Sayoc Kali). I know Chris personally, and had given a few lessons in his backyard in Queens, NY back in the mid 70s when his family were still very close to Leo (Gaje Jr. whom I consider a good friend). I also mentioned Kali Illustrisimo, yet I haven't not heard from them. (By the way, Leo and I worked out together very frequently in Queens at the Flushing Meadows Park when arnis was "Arnis, what?" in the early 70s'. When I held a stick fighting tournament in Manhattan in December 1975, only my students and Leo's competed.) I know Rey Galang personally. At the time Mark (Wiley) was writing his book which later bacame titled "Filipino Martial Culture", Rey came with Mark to my backyard (to interview me) in Queens, NY. Rey is the most well known Kali Illustrisimo practitioner in the US, yet I have not heard of any explanation from their end on the origin of the word. I started writing because I read Philippine history being interested in the Filipino martial arts. It is said that "If you don't read history, you are bound to repeat it." There was very little to read so I started writing. I did not want to repeat what my Filipino ancestors failed to do. I had the option to use the word kali, since in my village where I grew up in Pambuan, Gapan, Nueva Ecija, it was a common word. My granduncles sometimes will say kalis even if they mean gulok (bolo). I decided not to use the word kali for the name of my family's system because it has a bad connotation and linked to the ugly part of kali. You had just demonstrated the ugly part of kali. There is an intelligent discourse going on and you introduced a language that should not be used. I had explained the ugly part of kali which you have just demonstrated in my article in Inside Kungfu magazine. Perhaps, heads of systems who read this will come out with their explanation of the word kali. If they have a better explanation than mine, I would like to read it. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/5/2007 6:02:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: to answer why some "masters" have KALI in their name, and they cant explain it. i say bullshit. they can explain. they WONT explain. in 1970 most of these ex-eskrimador, probably never heard of placido yambao's book, but they dam sure heard of danny inosantos. book ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 05:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Some historians regard Bodhidharma (a.k.a. Damo, Tamo, Daruma) more as a legendary rather than as a historical figure. Furthermore, it has yet to be conclusively proven that Bodhidharma, if he indeed existed, indeed introduced a martial art system to the Shaolin monks. It must be noted that even before Bodhidharma supposedly arrived at Shaolin Temple, the Chinese already have their own martial systems, most of which were used by the military. At a basic level, the set of exercises supposedly introduced by Bodhidharma were for physical fitness and has yet to be proven conclusively as the origin of Shaolin Chuan Fa (fist way). Although Korean Taekwondo “Korean Karate” does more kicks we can not associate it to Northern Shaolin, which is also more on the lower limbs. It was the Southern Shaolin style that influenced Okinawa-te which later evolved to Japanese Karate through the efforts of Funakoshi, Gichin Sensei, the Father of Modern Karate-do and the Founder of Shotokan Karate. “If you juxtapose the experience of China, Japan and Korea with Buddhism, it would be logical to assume that Indian martial arts also made a piggy-back ride on the spread of Buddhism and Hinduism in Southeast Asia.” We have many “assumed” claims in the martial arts nowadays using the same line of thinking. Here is what’s currently accepted: Taekwondo < Japanese Karate < Okinawan Karate < Chinese Chuan Fa Which was extended to Taekwondo < Japanese Karate < Okinawan Karate < Chinese Chuan Fa < Indian Martial Arts (because of bodhidharma) < Greek Martial Arts (because Alexander the Great’s had set foot in India) Then you have saying Egypt was the first civilization on earth so we can assume that African Martial Arts is the origin of all martial arts. In recording the history of a certain civilization, it would be best to base the recording on verified facts rather than on assumptions since a certain people may “see” an event in their own “perspective and era/time” which may well be very different from what actually happened in the past which has a different environment, circumstances, standards, culture, etc. than the time period of the one writing the history. An error in history writing once repeated over time would be harder to separate from the truth and may well become gospel. JAMES U. SY JR. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. bgdebuque wrote: I think there is already a fair degree of acceptance of the Indian origins of Japanese Karate through the Boddhidharma-Shaoilin Kung Fu-Okinawan Karate line. Since it is also heavily-based on Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, as well as Japanese Karate, it appears that even Korean Karate has Indian roots too. Now, it is interesting to note that the spread of Indian martials in Northeast Asia was only a sideshow to India's main contribution to Northeast Asian culture - Buddhism. Wherever Buddhism went, Indian martial arts followed. In Southeast Asia, not only Buddhism but Hinduism as well became the platforms of the spread of Indian culture. Southeast Asia used to be ruled by a succession of Buddhist and Hindu empires. The areas covered by these empires include modern-day Indonesia and Malaysia, Southern Thailand, Southern Cambodia, as well as Central and Southern Philippines. If you juxtapose the experience of China, Japan and Korea with Buddhism, it would be logical to assume that Indian martial arts also made a piggy-back ride on the spread of Buddhism and Hinduism in Southeast Asia. I'm not sure whether it was Discovery Channel or National Geographic which embarked on a search for the remnant of any ancient Indian martial art which could be the possible forebear of modern Northeast Asian martial arts. What I'm sure though is that their search ultimately led them to Kelari Province of Southern India and the martial art of Kalaripayattu. It is, therefore, logical to assume that the Shaolin Kung Fu-Okinawan Karate-Japanese Karate line in the North also have a Southern counterpart - the Silat-FMA line. BTW, my recent research also indicated that even the famed Damascus blades of Indonesia, Malaysia and Southern Philippines are also of Indian origins - the Arabs merely served as the conduit of the transfer of technology. In case you have further doubts on the Indian origins of "Kali', just tune-in to Monday night WWE wrestling. There's an Indian wrestler there touted to be bigger than the late Andre the Giant who calls himself "The Great Khali"..... =[:->] When it is postulated that FMA originated from the Indian Martial Arts the > already messy and chaotic debate whether Kali is indeed Filipino or > Indonesian is further clouded and strays us from the truth farther. If we > hope for this theory to be taken seriously what we need would be more than > supposition. > > bgdebuque wrote: > I think you are on the right track. > > It appears that the ancient martial art from South India of Kalaripayattu > have spawned several martial arts-based performing arts, all of which have > "kali" affixed to it - KOLKALI, VELAKALI, THACHOLIKALI and KATHAKALI. > > KOLKALI is particularly interesting. According to Wikipedia: "The dance > performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with > special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress." > > Kalaripayattu is now highly-suspected as the possible origin of Shaolin > Kung > Fu. It would not be highly remote that it could also be the origin of the > FMA. If that is really the case, the use of "Kali" to refer to the FMA > would not be without basis at all. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 5 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 07:14:07 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] GM Cacoy Canete (fwd) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... From: Richard Bustillo Subject: GM Cacoy Canete Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 22:06:47 -0700 This morning I returned GM Cacoy's telephone call, after being out of town this weekend. GM requested that his black belt student's advance training and promotion be held on Saturday, June 9th at the IMB Academy. The day before his open general seminar on June 10th, Sunday from 9AM to 4PM. The advance black belt, only, training will start at 3 PM and end at 7 PM on Saturday. Donations for the Saturday session will be grateful. There will be those who will be driving long distance and those who will be flying into LAX. If you are unable to arrive on Saturday, GM Cacoy will repeat the belt promotion on Sunday for others to witness the promotion. Please know that the Grandmaster understands that his request will not meet everyone's work and daily schedules. The Saturday's black belt advance training and promotion is for GM Cacoy's certified black belt and higher ranking only. Please pass this info on to all of Cacoy Doce Pares World Federation Black Belts. If I remember correctly, a ranking fee is $50.00. Please correct me if I'm in error. Encourage all others below black belt to attend the general seminar on Sunday, June 10th from 9 AM to 4 PM. The 6 hour seminar fee, on Sunday, is $65.00 in advance or $75.00 at the door registration. After the Saturday's advance training and promotion, Grandmaster Cacoy suggests that we have a dinner celebration. It is important that I have a head count on who will be training on Saturday and how many will be attending the dinner celebration. An RSVP or advance notice will help my IMB Staff to coordinate a fun and educational event. We will be taken names and making reservations. Please email your RSVP to imbacademy@sbcglobal.net Mabuhay & Aloha, RSBustillo Cacoy Doce Pares World Federation --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest