Date: Wed, 09 May 2007 14:01:05 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #140 - 17 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Gatpuno Abon, karate,kungfu in the Phil before 1972 (jay de leon) 2. RE: kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem (Gajo, Mario) 3. Kalibo, Aklan, The FMA (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #138 - 11 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 4. Electronic version of Placido Yambao's (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #138-11 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Prof. Felipe Jocano Jr. and the FMA (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #138 - 11 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 6. Re: Absolutely nothing to do with kali... (Michael Gallagher) 7. Re: The Indian Connection (RJ Garcia) 8. Paete Arnis recorded Tournaments. (GatPuno@aol.com) 9. The Sri-Wijaya/Sri-Vishaya Connection (bgdebuque) 10. Re: Indians in the Philippines (bgdebuque) 11. The "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? (bgdebuque) 12. Maurice, Kali Vs. Arnis (Al Sardinas) 13. Moro-Moro Orabes Heneral (Al Sardinas) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 08:06:49 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Gatpuno Abon, karate,kungfu in the Phil before 1972 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net PG Mat: Great overview of those days. I also learned almost all of my martial arts in Manila about the same time frame you describe. I have written about similar experiences either in my e-book "Remembrances of Dojos Past," articles or just posts at ED and other fora. My first dojo was the NBI Judo Club when I was in Grade 4 or 5. That was my first time to wear a gi (called kimono) and the Club had real tatami mats. I learned Latino Gonzales shorin-ryu from PHICKAJU (Phil. Combat Karate and Judo Club) in Cubao, Quezon City. My school was part of the Siete Pares Shorin-ryu confederation affiliated with Latino Gonzales. I learned my kung-fu from the brothers Lito and Teddy Vito (years apart) who were of course graduates of Chinatown. I understand Lito Vito is still active in kung-fu to this day. I was in the batch that trained in front of the health club in front of De La Salle College together with a guy named Manny Pleno, who became a well-known kung-fu tournament fighter. Topher Ricketts recalls having some issues with Manny Pleno during their fighting days, not sure if they ever resolved their differences then. Re Jorge Lastra, I believe one of your seminars that I attended here in the U.S. was held at Eddie Lastra's bailiwick somewhere in northern California. Very knowledgeable and respectful and respected gentleman. The Jai-Alai was one of our many vices while going to college at La Salle. The judo National champion you speak of is Vic Vargas. He was my judo instructor at the Ateneo de Manila High School Judo Club, where we knew him as Jose "Pinggoy" Asuncion. In fact he was still our instructor while he was shooting his first film, "Diegong Tabak". I believe we lost him as instructor probably by his second film. He used to bring us to train at the Sampaloc Judo Club--not sure if that was his home dojo or he just trained there. He was discovered while doing demos at the TV show "Judo and Quick Draw" hosted by Eddie Limjap, who was a judo blackbelt and an NBI agent who could quick-draw. It was a reality that many instructors were multi-faceted (multi-belted?) and it would not be inaccurate or sacrilegious to say that in many cases, arnis was a secondary art. In addition to your examples, most of my instructors at PHICKAJU knew arnis (including nunchuks and balisong) but did not seem to put that much importance in it and taught it only to black belts. If only I knew then what I have realized now, I would have pressed for more arnis instruction. Thanks for the memories. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Pananandta@aol.com wrote: Manila has always been the hub of martial arts acitivity in the Philippines. The Old Olympic Stadium (as mentioned in Yambao's book) was the site of many stick fighting events from the 1920's to just before WWII. The Olympic Stadium was located at the street Doroteo Jose in Manila close to the movie house called Manila Grand Opera House. Stickfighting tournaments were held at the Stadium during Wednesdays. Boxing matches were held during Saturdays. The Stadium no longer stands, was demolished and gave way to a higher school of learning and and to small stores and businesses. Karate became popular in the early 60's but before that it was all judo and jiujitsu that was being taught at the NBI Academy. However, there were many kungfu teachers who taught behind closed doors. I had personal contact with many martial artists of all disciplines since I studied, lived and worked in and around Manila. Read on. There was a lot going on in the martial arts in the Philippines before 1972. Shorin-ryu karate – In 1966, 8th Dan Sensei Latino Gonzales, head of the Commando Karate Club, published a book on Shorin-ryu. 6th Dan Sensei Seikichi Iha and 5th Dan Sensei Seigi Shiroma did the katas. Most of the applications were done by Sensei Gonzales. The book costs 30 pesos ($15.00, at the time the exchange rate was $1 = 2 pesos). The school was located (where Rizal Avenue ended) at the foot of the McArthur Bridge that spans the Pasig River. Sensei Iha and Sensei Shiroma were later both promoted to higher ranks. Sensei Iha lived in Michigan for a short time. In 1967, shorinryu karate was introduced into the Philippine Military Academy (the equivalent of the US Military Academy at West Point) in a formal ceremony. Karate became very popular in movies in the late 1960’s when Sensei Gonzales’ two sons, Roberto and Rolando, starred in a number of action films. Many of the extras in their movies were from the Commando Karate Club. Both were excellent karatekas. Sensei Gonzales’ 3rd son was very good with sticks. I do not remember his name since the last time I worked out at the Commando Karate Club was in 1972. A big quake Richter scale 7.4 hit Manila and left the headquarters tilting dangerously. The school moved to Espana right across the University of Santo Tomas (UST) a source of many fine young medical doctors then and now. (One of my older brothers graduated from the UST School of Medicine.) The karate school was on the second floor directly above the famous Carbungo Restaurant. Shotokan karate – On the same side of the street about 20 minutes brisk walk was the headquarters of the JKA (Japanese Karate Association) headed by 7th Dan Sensei Junio Sasaki. It was also a famous school. I believe Tony Ferrer, another action movie star, was affiliated with the JKA. Hence, its popularity. The JKA had very good students. Espana street runs perpendicular to Quezon Blvd. Vilcat - Just where the two streets meet and a short distance from it, was another good school in karate. It was not as famous as the other karate schools but they had good students. One of my younger brothers had a black belt from the school. Aikido – Two aikido schools were located in Quezon Boulevard in the same building very close to the Quiapo Church. The Manila Aikido School was on the 2nd floor. The Philippine Aikido School (the school I went to) was on the 3rd floor. Students from the two schools smiled at each other most of the time. Taekwondo – Taekwondo started to become popular in the early 70’s. The only taekwondo school in Manila at the time was in the 4th floor of the same building where my aikido school was. I watched a number of their tournaments and was impressed by their kicks. Modern Arnis – Their school was on the other side of Quezon Boulevard immediately across the Quiapo church. If you have good ears, you can hear the Sunday mass from the school’s window. Yawyan – The school headquarters was on the same side of the street (Rizal Avenue that runs parallel to Quezon Blvd) of the earthquake-damaged old Commando Karate Club School. We were invited a number of times to the school by Nap (Fernandez, founder of the system) to watch them practice. Nap was my classmate at the aikido school. Nap had picture-perfect kicks. His younger brother was just as sharp. (One floor below the school was a pool hall.) Kungfu – In the 1960’s, if your name was not Chinese, or if you are not Chinese, or if you do not have the right friends and family ties, or if you are not rich or a very prominent citizen, it would be difficult to get into a kungfu school. However, starting in 1972, they relaxed their admission rules. As a result, many highly skilled kungfu teachers started to teach openly. One of them was my Sifu Benito Ku who game me instructions in the snake form of kungfu. A couple of my Chinese students at Adamson University also offered to teach me their form of kungfu. Unfortunately, it was time for me to immigrate to the US. Sikaran – Colonel Meliton Geronimo, head of sikaran, was the busiest man during one Asian Karate Championships Tournament held at the Araneta Coliseum in Quezon City. He ran the tournament. Competing in the tournament and eventual heavyweight champion was Bernard Belleza who was also an action movie star. Another Filipino karateka took the gold in one of the lighter weights. Colonel Geronimo introduced sikaran in Stamford, CT in the late 1980’s at my good friend Prof. Ed Brown’s school. I visited Colonel Geronimo in Virginia. With me was the late Jorge Lastra of armas de mano. Judo/jiujitsu – Judo was the main martial taught to agents of the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI, the Philippines’ equivalent of the FBI). Adamson University where I taught was a few minutes walk from the NBI headquarters. Right at the back of Adamson University was the Manila Jai Alai that faces the famous Luneta Park that was a short distance away. Across the street from the Yawyan school was a judo school. I tried to enroll in the school before I went into aikido. But each time, I went to the school it was closed. They had no telephone number. Judo became popular when a Philippine Open National Champion (I think it was Jess Lapid) became an actor. He appeared in several action movies. Tournaments: I went to a number of tournaments ran by the JKA, Vilcat, the taekwondo school, the Commando Karate Club and sikaran. Many of the tournaments were held at the YMCA and at another big building the name of which I had forgotten. They all had good students. Most of the tournaments were well run. However, the last karate tournament I watched ended with chairs flying all over. The competitors disagreed with the judges’ decisions and started throwing chairs. The chairs were easy enough to throw because they were made of light rattan. I was seated at the balcony section and was not near enough to get thrown at. The last JKA tournament I attended was held at the De Lasalle College in Manila. One of my chemistry students at the University who was a black belt with the JKA competed. There were club tournaments and open tournaments. Bigger tournaments were held at the Rizal Coliseum in Manila. The last stick-fighting tournament I competed in was held at the YMCA located just across the Manila City Hall. I won first place. The tournament was very orderly. All the referees and judges had sticks in their hands. Incidentally, in the tournaments that I competed in, there was only one medal. The tournament sponsors cannot afford to give medals/trophies to 2nd and 3rd place winners who were considered losers. I have not mentioned Roland Dantes up to now because when I left the Philippines in 1973, he was not yet well known. Perhaps, it would surprise the reader that many of the martial artists I came in contact with were skilled in more than one martial art. I had a classmate in aikido who was an advanced student in silat, another in kungfu and another in stickfighting. Sensei Latino Gonzales was very good with the stick that he rarely showed, Grandmaster Lanada was a blackbelt in shorin-ryu, Dr. Lengzon was an excellent karateka and stickfighter, Nap was into aikido and at the time he was formalizing Yawyan. There were many others whose name I have forgotten. That was more than 34 years ago. Most of the masters/founders of Philippine stick-fighting kept to themselves at the time. I heard of them only after having lived in the US for several years. There were at least 6 tournaments in Manila each year. There were many demonstrations by each of the above mentioned schools. As for myself, I participated in demonstrations around Manila and in Cavite. Best regards. APMarinas Sr. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Subject: RE: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 09:49:08 -0700 From: "Gajo, Mario" To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Since we are trying to find the truth about the name "Kali", why don't we start by finding out to who we are? Remember, we were not called Filipinos before the Spanish came. Our islands were not called Philippines. We did have an original culture, traditions and an original name. So, what were we? Who are we? We don't seem to care about our name sake but we for weeks are here arguing about "Kali"? Most of us know about the history of how we are called Filipinos. Are we accepting that? Is this why our Southern Muslim brothers want to be independent because they do not want to be called Filipinos? That I understand. Regards, Mario M. Gajo -----Original Message----- From: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net [mailto:eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net] On Behalf Of RJ Garcia Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:46 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem Again, I am not disputing the authenticity of these kali FMA styles. They deserve just as much respect as other Filipino martial art styles, no matter what they are called. However, I do believe that discussions and further research on the history and etymologies of terms in FMA are quite warranted and nothing less than beneficial to our art and to us Filipinos in general. We will only be going nowhere if things like this are kept hanging, unresolved, and swept under the rug. We have to be careful and truthful in how we present ourselves and our art, as we are the bearers of this living cultural heritage of the Philippines. Gumagalang, RJ Garica ----- Original Message ---- From: Rich Acosta To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:10:33 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem I'm sure that you are just being facetious. I think we can all agree to disagree and move forward. The name Kali exists and it is here to say. I don't think that any of the Filipino Grandmasters and Masters, such as GM Leo Gaje, GM Vicente Sanchez, GM Ben Largusa, GM Dan Inosanto, Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Guro Carl Atienza, that have chosen to propagate the art of Kali would change the name of their styles/systems and organizations just to appease the nay-sayers anyway. We should divert our effort to actually doing something positive for the Filipino Martial Arts, instead of beating this (very) dead horse, and getting nowhere IMO. Rich Acosta ----- Forwarded Message ---- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org ----- Original Message ----- From: RJ Garcia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2007 1:18:07 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] kali (beating the horse that just doesn't seem to really be dead) If we truly don't care about the names and the history, why even call it a Filipino? Just call it stick/blade based fighting then, if we do not care about it being Filipino or not. RJ Garcia kamao.org _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 14:42:42 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kalibo, Aklan, The FMA (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #138 - 11 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James, Really Sayang! I have family friends from Kalibo, Aklan and they live near me in Fredericksburg, Virginia. One Dr. Oscar M. Laserna, who is president of the Society of Philippine Surgeons in America (SPSA), is a long time family friend and his wife is my wife's classmate dating back to grade school at St. Theresa's College in Manila. Oscar's father was a former Mayor. SPSA member doctors do major surgeries such as brain operations. For the information of EDers who have relatives in the Philippines, the SPSA goes on a yearly mission to the Philippines doing free surgery. Their free surgery comes to about 1,000+ each year. They also help upgrade hospital equipment in the Philippines from donations in the US. Thankfully, Expat Filipino doctors have not forgotten their less fortunate countrymen. Their website spsatoday is hosted by Dr. Philip Chua who is originally from Cebu. Dr. Chua is also a columnist for the Filipino Reporter. Again to EDers, the Filipino Reporter played a prominent role in the propagation of the FMA. They are/were only too willing to publish anything about the FMA. Leo (Gaje Jr.) and I took advantage of their kindness and released quite a number of news through them in the early 1970's and through the 1980's. Regards. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/8/2007 9:59:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hi PG Mat, Indeed it could have been an opportunity if you had met the man himself. Sayang. Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis - First document where Kali was recorded. 1957. Florante at Laura - First document where Arnes was recorded. 1831. By chronology and documentation alone it would appear that Arnes is older than Kali. 1957 was the year of publication but the book must have been written earlier. Even if the year of writing is moved a few years back, it would still fall short. Prof. Jocano has a point when he said that this may not be enough evidence but until additional proof can be forwarded to prove the contrary this is the most verifiable data based on documents. Of course, this point is only one of several arguments that will lead us to the ultimate truth. JAMES U. SY JR. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:02:17 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Electronic version of Placido Yambao's (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #138-11 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc, I have no knowledge of an electronic version of Yambao's book. I hope when such is made, they will try to locate Placido Yambao's relatives in Hagonoy, Bulacan and give them some royalty. They deserve it. By the way, the copyright in the Philippines is almost forever. In the US, it is limited. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/8/2007 9:59:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: To All, Does anyone have or know of a electronic version of :Placido Yambao's Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis in 1957 - first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA). There has been much talk about this book and its content. I am sure that there are many who would like to read it. I understand from: "ken jo post that the- book and its author - the controversial piece "Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" (actually an introduction) was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larung Arnis" by Placido Yambao published in 1957. This was the first book dedicated to the history and practice of the Filipino Martial Arts. You can access it at the UP Diliman Library.." ) I do not know if they have an electronic version available as I am in the US it is hard to visit the UP Diliman library. Does anyone besides me think that it would be good book to put out to Project Guttenberg. I am not sure how someone does that, but it does seem to be treasure to all that have read it. Just my thoughts. Marc Lawrence South Bay, Ca, USA ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:16:04 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Prof. Felipe Jocano Jr. and the FMA (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #138 - 11 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In the short time that I have subscribed to ED, Bot have given some revealing insight into the FMA. In a personal email to me, Bot asked if I remembered a certain Prof. Adria Jocano who taught at Adamson University. I left Adamson University in 1973 and it has been 34 years since. But I can still remember Prof. Adria Jocano. She was a fellow faculty member at Adamson. Prof. Adria Jocano taught chemistry while I taught chemical engineering. Adria (whom we called Ading at Adamson) is Bot's Mom. Small world indeed it is! APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/8/2007 9:59:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Prof. Jocano has a point when he said that this may not be enough evidence but until additional proof can be forwarded to prove the contrary this is the most verifiable data based on documents. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 08 May 2007 15:36:51 -0400 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Absolutely nothing to do with kali... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At 10:46 PM 5/5/2007, you wrote: >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwWML0emByQ&NR=1 > >Comments? Gotta credit the TKD guy for getting up and getting back in it. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 15:30:47 -0700 (PDT) From: RJ Garcia Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian Connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm not so sure that it is safe to parallel our history with that of Indonesia, or to assume outright that Buddhist and Hindu empires controlled our islands. I believe that at best, this is a conjecture that needs to be looked into more. bgdebuque, you said that the reason for the disappearance of the Hindu traditions here in the Philippines was the spread of other religions such as Islam and Catholicism. It is recorded that Islam, even by the time the Spanish arrived, was not a dominant influence at all, with only small communities like those in Manila and Pampanga, and only Mindanao with significant Islamic influence. Furthermore, even when these religions become dominant, remnants of past belief systems should still prevail, as with how animistic beliefs seeped into Catholicism, to produce folk Catholicism (using Latin-like prayers and diagrams depicting the Holy Trinity in orasyon, using holy images as if they were anting-anting, praying and offering to the saints as if they are anito) that exists all over the islands. If Hinduism (and Buddhism) was a religion that had taken root in these islands, then it should have remnants of it's existence, just like how these vestiges of animism still persist. Thus, I will doubt any significant Hindu influence in our country until I see evidence like this. Up till now, I do believe that before Christianity, animism was the dominant religion in our islands. Also, even if the words Shri Vijaya does seem similar to our Visayas, it is doubtful that we should consider this as a proof of Hindu influence, as the Shri Vijaya empire was Buddhist, and not Hindu (http://users.skynet.be/network.indonesia/ni4001c3a.htm). Moreover, it is said that the Shri Vijaya empire depended on maritime trade for its power (http://users.skynet.be/network.indonesia/ni4001c3b.htm), and thus protected its trade routes from piracy. This goes on the face of how in college, we studied that the moro tribes were not the only pirates in the islands at the time, but the Visayan pintados as well (I believe my professor's source for this was Sir William Henry Scott's book Barangay), with the pintados being said to have been able to go on pirate/slave raids as far as the Chinese Southern coast on their karakoa boats. I do, however, concede that evidences of Hindu Influence in the Philippines do exist, such as how the Indian epic Ramayana exists as oral tradition in the Maranao tribe in Mindanao, words like raja and karma (though our understanding of karma is an overly simplistic one compared to the Hindu concept) existing in vocabularies of some Filipino languages, and the existence of something like the Laguna Copperplate Inscription (http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm). But evidences such as this, I believe, are still far too circumstantial to be used to bolster a supposed Hinduism - Kali FMA connection. And to quote the above website on the Laguna Copperplate: "At this time, everything is conjecture. Many more questions will be asked, answered, and refuted; other questions will be asked again." (Santos, Hector. "The Laguna Copperplate Inscription" in A Philippine Leaf at http://www.bibingka.com/dahon/lci/lci.htm. US, October 26, 1996.) Just what I do find quite interesting is how other people seem to be totally convinced of some things, even if they are not yet fully proven. Gumagalang, RJ Garcia ----- Original Message ---- From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sunday, May 6, 2007 2:32:57 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian Connection Most historical accounts I have seen place the extreme boundaries of these empires in the vicinity of the Visayan Islands. Inasmuch as the center of power in pre-Hispanic Philippines is in the South, it can be fairly assumed that during the heydays of these Buddhist and Hindu empires, they have effective control over the area. The reason why Buddhist and Hindu traditions are already hard to trace in current Philippine culture can be summed up in 2 words - Islam and Catholicism. Even in Java and Sumatra, which used to be the centers of these empires, only minor traces of Buddhist and Hindu traditions can be found in the current day-to-day life of their inhabitants due to the predominance of Islamic culture. How much more in the case of the Philippines which has been subjected to, not only 1 but 2, of the most powerful assimiliationist cultural forces the modern world has ever seen? *Is it indeed a historical fact that Buddhism and Hinduism at one time enjoyed wide acceptance in the Philippines? Or more that Buddhist and Hindi rulers considered the islands as part of their broader empire? * _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.netl. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Tue, 8 May 2007 22:36:54 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Paete Arnis recorded Tournaments. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net PG Mat, Well, in our town Arnis is recorded from 1770, that every town fiesta has Tournaments of Arnis, the Manila is extict, including the fightier is all long gone, and very rare you see the fruit of it. So is hart to relates that to all Manila Group of Eskrimador of today. In out town, from 1770 the early morning of our town Fiesta with the day of Saint James the warrior, all of the best Eskrimadores are on parade toward the town Plaza in front of the Casa Real. The Tournament start at exactly one oc lock and was rest to hold during 1894-1898, then 1898 they start reviving it then stop against during the Filipino/Amerian War 1907-1911. The from 1910-1920 the tournament is done in the Mount of Santa Ana in Sierra Madre Mountain in Paete. Then 1920-1941 is back in town Plaza, then was rest again during the peak of WWII 1942-1950, then 1950 until to this days. > > Manila has always been the hub of martial arts acitivity in the  > Philippines. > > The Old Olympic Stadium (as mentioned in Yambao's book) was the site of  > many > stick fighting events from the 1920's to just before WWII. The Olympic > Stadium was located at the street Doroteo Jose in Manila close to the movie > house > called Manila Grand Opera House. > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 00:05:28 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Sri-Wijaya/Sri-Vishaya Connection Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Since the Visayan Islands seem to be at the extreme boundaries of the empire, the original Visayans could have been some kind of frontier garrison troops extremely loyal to Palembang. This might explain the seemingly innate blade skills of people in the region, as well as their apparent resistance to Islamization (the Sri-Wijaya/Sri-Vishaya rulers are basically Buddhists) - a fact which did not escape the attention of Spanish colonizers, and which they subsequently exploited to the hilt as they expanded their grip over the entire archipelago primarily using Visayan warriors as cannon fodder for their divide-and-rule campaigns. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Indians in the Philippines Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Based on historical accounts I have seen, there seems to be 2 sources of non-indigenous dark-skinned people in the Province of Cavite. One is the from the evacuated Spanish garrison at Ternate in the Moluccas Islands (which included both turncoat Moluccans, as well as the kidnapped Ternate Royal Family). The second is from the Sepoy deserters of the British Army which occupied Manila for about 7 years. > > Indians in the Philippines are known to be centered in Cainta, > Rizal which > is not far from Manila. They are dark skinned and have Caucasian > features. I > have met a few of them back in the 1960's. But I was not aware of them > being > discriminated against at the time. In fact, their features were very much > admired. > > Perhaps, recent discrimination against them is based on their business > practices? Taking away business opportunities from local residents? > > Indeed, when I was still living in the Philippines, when a person is > dark-skinned and have Caucasian features he is liable to be asked, "Are > you from > Cainta?" This is no longer the case because many young Fil-Americans > have dark > skins and Caucasian features. > > APMarinas Sr. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 00:59:16 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Since based on the previous posts below, the meaning of the Indian word "Kali" is "play" and Francisco Balagtas in "Florante at Laura" also refers to Arnis as "laro", which literally also means "play", it seems to appear to me that "Arnis" is maybe the Hispanized version of "Kali". Even the timing of the first recorded appearance of the word "Arnes" [1831] seem to support this. If I remember it right, it was also in the 19th century when the drive to Hispanize all Filipino names started - which implies that there would also have been similar pressure to Hispanize other politically-sensitive native terms, like the one pertaining to the native fighting arts. > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: aby paul > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hello, > > The 'Kali' which you mentioned in 'Kol-Kali','Thacholi-Kali' means ' > play'. Kolkali-Stick Play. > ParichamuttuKali-Sword and Shield play. These all arts are derived for > kalaripayattu. > > The way we say Hindu Godess kali is' Kaali'. > > Just my few cents > Paul xxxxxxxxxxx In a message dated 5/2/2007 9:06:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > The first recorded use of Kali was Yambao's book in 1957. > > A friend of mine at the Center for Lasallian Ministries at thew University > of st. La Salle (USLS) called to my attention that Florante at Laura by > Francisco Balagtas, written in 1831, in verse 223, lone 3, "larong buno't > arnes..." > This was the first recorded use of Arnis. --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:11:04 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Maurice, Kali Vs. Arnis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Maurice Gatdula is "Old School" Over the years I have enjoyed the writings of Maurice Gatdula because he usually is concise and conveys the truth (well, at least IMO) without any BS. His delivery may not be to the liking of other readers because some may not be able to comprehend (or choose to ignore) what is being said. Others may not agree to his vocabulary. But to appreciate Maurice, you have to be fond of "Old School". Most of the elder members of the digest will know what I mean but to the uninformed, this term has a positive connotation meaning something similar to the best of something that is rare to find. In reference to "they can't explain it" vs. "they can explain. they WONT explain", if wordplay is allowed and using some good old math fundamentals then both quotes are equal therefore no dispute: - * + = -. The Use of Kali vs. Arnis I wrote this privately but I will throw it out in public. In the late 1970's I saw Grand Tuhon Gaje and his students do a demonstration in New York's Chinatown, I remember him calling his art, Arnis. Also, pictured on the cover of the April 1977 edition of Official Karate, is Grand Tuhon Gaje with one of his first students Guro Frank Ortega. The caption next to them, "Arnis DeMano: The New Crime Fighter". I'm sure that back then GT Gaje's art was good and deadly as it is today so I can assume that using Kali instead of Arnis was and is simply a different name and nothing more. Respectfully, Al Sardinas A Student Of The Garimot System Of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Wed, 9 May 2007 14:13:21 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Moro-Moro Orabes Heneral Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Moro-Moro Orabes Heneral (MMOH) Recent information was submitted on the Filipino martial art Moro-Moro Orabes Heneral. I noticed some similarities and differences between this art and the Garimot (G) System. For example both systems have cinco teros, siete teros and doce pares but in G we start with cinco and learn doce last. In MMOH, they start with 12 strikes first. Also, MMOH espouses fast dance-like footwork, shuffling backward and forward while G advocates precise solid footwork and angular motion. MMOH mentions that when swinging the stick, practitioners use their empty hand to propel the wrist of the weapon-holding arm to help produce power and speed. In G, we consider this counter productive and offers the opponent two targets for the price of one. Finally, it was written that one of the first generation players of MMOH is Henry Espera. If this is the same GM Henry Espera of Rapid Realisimo then like recent writings regarding GM Lazo's art being compared to Serrada, I do not see the connection between GM Espera and MMOH. Last year, I witnessed GM Espera teaching in Luneta Park and I did not observe anything that resembled the described Moro-Moro or Cinco Teros - maybe I was there at the wrong time. Respectfully, Al Sardinas A Student Of The Garimot System Of Arnis --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest