Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 06:47:07 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #147 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. balintawak training clips on youtube (malcolm knight) 2. Re: PG Edgar Sulite speaks on "Kali" (james jr. sy) 3. Re: Gatpuno Abon, karate,kungfu in the Phil before 1972 (james jr. sy) 4. Re: The "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Maurice, Kali Vs. Arnis (james jr. sy) 6. Re: The Indian Connection (james jr. sy) 7. Re: RE: Re: The Indian Connection (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "malcolm knight" To: "stephen dyde" , "Phillip Coedy" , "margaret" , "keith thompson" , "Jeff Soriano" , "Jakob G." , , "Gabriel rafael" Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 09:25:48 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] balintawak training clips on youtube Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, just got back from cebu a few days ago, the heat was almost unbearable but you know how it is. Sun, sea beautiful women sigh, someone has to do it, you learn to grin and bear it after a while. Anyway just uploaded the latest training clips on youtube. youtube vids April 2007 I returned to Cebu and Grandmaster Nick Elizar to continue my training in World Nickelstick Eskrima club Balintawak style.GM Nick obviously wanted to see how much I had developed since last year before starting instructor training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LAgHAXoagI After getting belly stuck I need to pick up my game, still a bit rusty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVqIrTTxGsU its the sudden drop to strike the knee and change from short to long range that really gets me, but shaking off some of the rust now http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RdXeKycZkQ Now it was my turn to dictate pace and keep the student moving / reacting. My partner Chris was very patient with my learning curv Now it was my turn to dictate pace and keep the student moving / reacting. My partner Chris was very patient with my learning curve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtQ95GEUTeA getting a little more comfortable now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VKNSdS6qNA This is what I had been waiting for, most of my training last year had been with Norman so I wanted to see how much I had improved against this sharpshooter..still room for lots of improvement i think! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dFmxpqc2DU Just got used to Chris and he gets replaced by Michael, now he is a very slippery fellow, see the way he bobs/weaves to avoid my push/pull... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLv-sx6zpHI getting used to Michael and trying to find his weak points.... still trying http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3cXs1NjUD0 Finally I get in close enough to deliver a push,getting a little more confident now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zw3JjKXglU This has to be the hardetst thing for me, inserting a disarm into a random flow and pulling it off at will. My brain still freezes at times when it comes to the money note.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jlaSkuKkf4 Regards, Malcolm. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:03:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] PG Edgar Sulite speaks on "Kali" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net GT Leo T. Gaje Jr., the no. 1 propagator of the term Kali in the Philippines, in numerous instances, had made "clear" distinctions between Kali and the supposedly Spanish Arnis and Escrima terms (printed, electronic, and broadcast). Marc Denny wrote: Woof All: Here's PG Edgar Sulite on the terms "Kali, Eskrima and Arnis" from his first video "Lameco at the Vortex"-- which I produced/directed around 1992. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAvfPQW47wY Yip! Crafty Dog _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:09:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Gatpuno Abon, karate,kungfu in the Phil before 1972 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat and Gat Puno Abon, Up to today Manila is still the center of martial arts growth and development in the Philippines largely due to the fact that it is the capital of the country and it serves as a melting pot of various martial traditions. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was introduced to the Philippines in 2001 via Manila. At about the same time, Capoeira Grupo Manila (CGM), the first Capoeira group in the Philippines, was already in existence. The national governing bodies for various martial sports recognized by the Philippine Olympic Committee (POC) and the Philippine Sports Commission (PSC) such as the Arnis Philippines (Arpi), Muay Association of the Philippines (MAP), Philippine Amateur Judo Association (PAJA), Philippine Karate-do Federation (PKF), Philippine Pencak Silat Association (Philsilat), Philippine Taekwondo Association (PTA), and Wushu Federation of the Philippines (WFP) are based in the NCR. The major governing bodies for traditional aikido (Aikikai) in the country Aikido Philippines, PAPA, Filipino Federation of aikido – all based in Manila. The Ki Association International of former Philippine Ki no Kenkyukai Chief Instructor Ernesto Talag Sensei and the Tapondo Internatioanl Federation Inc. 9TIFI) of founder/Master Ambrosio “Monching” J. Gavileńo are also based in Manila. Nevertheless, many of the pioneers in Philippine martial arts came from the provinces among them: Latino Gonzales Sensei (Jaro, iloilo) - Father of Shorin-ryu Karate in the Philippines. Johnny Carranza Sensei of the Siete Pares Karate Association (Tanjay, Oriental Negros) - Philippine action and karate star. GM Casimiro A. Grandeza Bacolod City)- Father of Karate in Negros. Was teaching Karate in the province as early as the 1960s. Also pioneer of Combat judo and Arnis thru his White Kimono. Became the first Filipino to finish a masters’ course in Korea under the moo Duk Kwan of the late GM Hwang Kee and went on to become the first Filipino grandmaster of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and the founder/president of the Philippine Moo Duk Kwan Inc.-Korea Tang soo Do Association (PMDKI-KTSDA). Ceferino “Jun” F. Vasquez Sensei (Bacolod City) - Trained intensively in Japan under Nakayama, Masatoshi Sensei, then 9th dan. He brought Sasaki, Kunio Sensei, then 6th dan, to the Philippines as the sole representative of Japan Karate Association (JKA) to the country. Johnny Chuiten (Cebu) - Former president of the Karate Federation of the Philippines (KAFEPHIL), technical consultant of the Chin Wu Athletic Association of the Philippines, and vice president of the Cebu Escrima Association. A prominent figure in Kung Fu, Escrima, and Karate in the early days. Founder of Pronus Supinus. Pancho Villa (Ilog, Negros Occidental) - The first world Wesertn Boxing champion from Asia. Flash Elorde (Cebu) - Great Filipino world Western Boxing champion who also did Balintawak Escrima. Labangon Fencing Club - Pioneer group of escrima in cebu which later evolved into the Doce Pares. Doce Pares - The most established Cebuano FMA organization having been founded in 1932 by several Eskrimadores, among them the Saavedras and the Cańetes. GM Remegio “Remy” A. Presas (Hinigaran, negros Occidental) - PE university professor for Judo and Arnis. The first from Negros to write an FMA book. Founder of Presas Style Modern Arnis, the most practiced FMA style in the world. Master Monching Gavileńo (Guimaras) - Founde of the first Filipino style of Aikido, Tapondo (a.k.a. Combat Aikido). A Philippine Aikido pioneer. Former member of Aikikai in the Philippines. Founded the Philippine Aikido Sports Association Inc. (PASAI), which was later renamed to the Philippine Combat Aikido Federation (PCAF) in 1992 and then Tapondo International Federation Inc. (TIFI) in 2000 or 2001. Paquit Valencia Sensei (Iloilo City) - One of the first Filipinos to have studied Aikido. Taught Aikido in Guam. Was also an Judo black belt. Passed away with a 4th dan from Aikikai Hombu. Max C. Tian Sensei (Cebu) - Head of Shinshintoitsu Aikido in Cebu. I know I missed out others, particularly in Luzon. I apologize for the shortcoming of the list. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: Manila has always been the hub of martial arts acitivity in the Philippines. The Old Olympic Stadium (as mentioned in Yambao's book) was the site of many stick fighting events from the 1920's to just before WWII. The Olympic Stadium was located at the street Doroteo Jose in Manila close to the movie house called Manila Grand Opera House. Stickfighting tournaments were held at the Stadium during Wednesdays. Boxing matches were held during Saturdays. The Stadium no longer stands, was demolished and gave way to a higher school of learning and and to small stores and businesses. Karate became popular in the early 60's but before that it was all judo and jiujitsu that was being taught at the NBI Academy. However, there were many kungfu teachers who taught behind closed doors. I had personal contact with many martial artists of all disciplines since I studied, lived and worked in and around Manila. Read on. There was a lot going on in the martial arts in the Philippines before 1972. Shorin-ryu karate – In 1966, 8th Dan Sensei Latino Gonzales, head of the Commando Karate Club, published a book on Shorin-ryu. 6th Dan Sensei Seikichi Iha and 5th Dan Sensei Seigi Shiroma did the katas. Most of the applications were done by Sensei Gonzales. The book costs 30 pesos ($15.00, at the time the exchange rate was $1 = 2 pesos). The school was located (where Rizal Avenue ended) at the foot of the McArthur Bridge that spans the Pasig River. Sensei Iha and Sensei Shiroma were later both promoted to higher ranks. Sensei Iha lived in Michigan for a short time. In 1967, shorinryu karate was introduced into the Philippine Military Academy (the equivalent of the US Military Academy at West Point) in a formal ceremony. Karate became very popular in movies in the late 1960’s when Sensei Gonzales’ two sons, Roberto and Rolando, starred in a number of action films. Many of the extras in their movies were from the Commando Karate Club. Both were excellent karatekas. Sensei Gonzales’ 3rd son was very good with sticks. I do not remember his name since the last time I worked out at the Commando Karate Club was in 1972. A big quake Richter scale 7.4 hit Manila and left the headquarters tilting dangerously. The school moved to Espana right across the University of Santo Tomas (UST) a source of many fine young medical doctors then and now. (One of my older brothers graduated from the UST School of Medicine.) The karate school was on the second floor directly above the famous Carbungo Restaurant. Shotokan karate – On the same side of the street about 20 minutes brisk walk was the headquarters of the JKA (Japanese Karate Association) headed by 7th Dan Sensei Junio Sasaki. It was also a famous school. I believe Tony Ferrer, another action movie star, was affiliated with the JKA. Hence, its popularity. The JKA had very good students. Espana street runs perpendicular to Quezon Blvd. Vilcat - Just where the two streets meet and a short distance from it, was another good school in karate. It was not as famous as the other karate schools but they had good students. One of my younger brothers had a black belt from the school. Aikido – Two aikido schools were located in Quezon Boulevard in the same building very close to the Quiapo Church. The Manila Aikido School was on the 2nd floor. The Philippine Aikido School (the school I went to) was on the 3rd floor. Students from the two schools smiled at each other most of the time. Taekwondo – Taekwondo started to become popular in the early 70’s. The only taekwondo school in Manila at the time was in the 4th floor of the same building where my aikido school was. I watched a number of their tournaments and was impressed by their kicks. Modern Arnis – Their school was on the other side of Quezon Boulevard immediately across the Quiapo church. If you have good ears, you can hear the Sunday mass from the school’s window. Yawyan – The school headquarters was on the same side of the street (Rizal Avenue that runs parallel to Quezon Blvd) of the earthquake-damaged old Commando Karate Club School. We were invited a number of times to the school by Nap (Fernandez, founder of the system) to watch them practice. Nap was my classmate at the aikido school. Nap had picture-perfect kicks. His younger brother was just as sharp. (One floor below the school was a pool hall.) Kungfu – In the 1960’s, if your name was not Chinese, or if you are not Chinese, or if you do not have the right friends and family ties, or if you are not rich or a very prominent citizen, it would be difficult to get into a kungfu school. However, starting in 1972, they relaxed their admission rules. As a result, many highly skilled kungfu teachers started to teach openly. One of them was my Sifu Benito Ku who game me instructions in the snake form of kungfu. A couple of my Chinese students at Adamson University also offered to teach me their form of kungfu. Unfortunately, it was time for me to immigrate to the US. Sikaran – Colonel Meliton Geronimo, head of sikaran, was the busiest man during one Asian Karate Championships Tournament held at the Araneta Coliseum in Quezon City. He ran the tournament. Competing in the tournament and eventual heavyweight champion was Bernard Belleza who was also an action movie star. Another Filipino karateka took the gold in one of the lighter weights. Colonel Geronimo introduced sikaran in Stamford, CT in the late 1980’s at my good friend Prof. Ed Brown’s school. I visited Colonel Geronimo in Virginia. With me was the late Jorge Lastra of armas de mano. Judo/jiujitsu – Judo was the main martial taught to agents of the National Bureau of Investigation (NBI, the Philippines’ equivalent of the FBI). Adamson University where I taught was a few minutes walk from the NBI headquarters. Right at the back of Adamson University was the Manila Jai Alai that faces the famous Luneta Park that was a short distance away. Across the street from the Yawyan school was a judo school. I tried to enroll in the school before I went into aikido. But each time, I went to the school it was closed. They had no telephone number. Judo became popular when a Philippine Open National Champion (I think it was Jess Lapid) became an actor. He appeared in several action movies. Tournaments: I went to a number of tournaments ran by the JKA, Vilcat, the taekwondo school, the Commando Karate Club and sikaran. Many of the tournaments were held at the YMCA and at another big building the name of which I had forgotten. They all had good students. Most of the tournaments were well run. However, the last karate tournament I watched ended with chairs flying all over. The competitors disagreed with the judges’ decisions and started throwing chairs. The chairs were easy enough to throw because they were made of light rattan. I was seated at the balcony section and was not near enough to get thrown at. The last JKA tournament I attended was held at the De Lasalle College in Manila. One of my chemistry students at the University who was a black belt with the JKA competed. There were club tournaments and open tournaments. Bigger tournaments were held at the Rizal Coliseum in Manila. The last stick-fighting tournament I competed in was held at the YMCA located just across the Manila City Hall. I won first place. The tournament was very orderly. All the referees and judges had sticks in their hands. Incidentally, in the tournaments that I competed in, there was only one medal. The tournament sponsors cannot afford to give medals/trophies to 2nd and 3rd place winners who were considered losers. I have not mentioned Roland Dantes up to now because when I left the Philippines in 1973, he was not yet well known. Perhaps, it would surprise the reader that many of the martial artists I came in contact with were skilled in more than one martial art. I had a classmate in aikido who was an advanced student in silat, another in kungfu and another in stickfighting. Sensei Latino Gonzales was very good with the stick that he rarely showed, Grandmaster Lanada was a blackbelt in shorin-ryu, Dr. Lengzon was an excellent karateka and stickfighter, Nap was into aikido and at the time he was formalizing Yawyan. There were many others whose name I have forgotten. That was more than 34 years ago. Most of the masters/founders of Philippine stick-fighting kept to themselves at the time. I heard of them only after having lived in the US for several years. There were at least 6 tournaments in Manila each year. There were many demonstrations by each of the above mentioned schools. As for myself, I participated in demonstrations around Manila and in Cavite. Best regards. APMarinas Sr. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:19:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Eskrima (swordplay/fencing), Chinese mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino piko are all “plays” too but they have nothing to do with Kali. From an academic point of view, such reasoning is erroneous and invalid. As PG Mat said, you don’t take words literally. The point in comparing Florante at Laura and Yambao’s book is the date i.e. 1831 and 1957 respectively. How do you refute that without resorting to conjecture on “play?” Kali is supposed to be the original term but why is it we have Arnis recorded first? And how can Arnis be Kali when Kali is claimed to be the original, purer, and the mother art? Since you said that “it seems to appear to me that "Arnis" is maybe the Hispanized version of "Kali,” and that you believe that Kali came from the Indian martial art of Kalaripayattu, what particular Hindu influences can you point out in Arnis? PG Mat posted his definition of kalisin “to level off” which doesn’t connect to your “play.” Seems to appear, maybe, seem, implies…are all words that denote doubt. bgdebuque wrote: Since based on the previous posts below, the meaning of the Indian word "Kali" is "play" and Francisco Balagtas in "Florante at Laura" also refers to Arnis as "laro", which literally also means "play", it seems to appear to me that "Arnis" is maybe the Hispanized version of "Kali". Even the timing of the first recorded appearance of the word "Arnes" [1831] seem to support this. If I remember it right, it was also in the 19th century when the drive to Hispanize all Filipino names started - which implies that there would also have been similar pressure to Hispanize other politically-sensitive native terms, like the one pertaining to the native fighting arts. > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) > From: aby paul > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Hello, > > The 'Kali' which you mentioned in 'Kol-Kali','Thacholi-Kali' means ' > play'. Kolkali-Stick Play. > ParichamuttuKali-Sword and Shield play. These all arts are derived for > kalaripayattu. > > The way we say Hindu Godess kali is' Kaali'. > > Just my few cents > Paul xxxxxxxxxxx In a message dated 5/2/2007 9:06:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > The first recorded use of Kali was Yambao's book in 1957. > > A friend of mine at the Center for Lasallian Ministries at thew University > of st. La Salle (USLS) called to my attention that Florante at Laura by > Francisco Balagtas, written in 1831, in verse 223, lone 3, "larong buno't > arnes..." > This was the first recorded use of Arnis. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:33:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Maurice, Kali Vs. Arnis To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You are correct there good Sir. GT Gaje originally used Arnis prior to the 1980s. He was North and south American commissioner for the National Arnis Association of the Philippines (NARAPHIL), then the governing body of FMA in the Philippines headed by then Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP) Chief of Staff Gen. Fabian Ver. The Official Karate magazine April 1977 issue which contained "Arnis DeMano: The New Crime Fighter" was one of the entries in “Pekiti Tirsia Kali System Pictorial Highlights for the Last 30 Years” in the 30th Year Celebration Souvenier Program with the theme “The Filipino of Indigenous Discipline A Vital Link in Strengthening The Economy of the Philippines” dated October 28, 2000 and printed by copy Perfect in Bacolod City. In the May 1985 issue of Inside Kung Fu, Patricia L. Everett wrote “Arnis: Self defense in a Pocketful of Sand.” The author was described as a State Representative for Pekiti Tirsia Arnis. The article also showed an action picture of Mrs. Everett with GT Gaje with the banner of NARAPHIL in the background. GT Gaje had also issued rank certificates stating “Arnis” instead of “Kali.” Al Sardinas wrote: Maurice Gatdula is "Old School" Over the years I have enjoyed the writings of Maurice Gatdula because he usually is concise and conveys the truth (well, at least IMO) without any BS. His delivery may not be to the liking of other readers because some may not be able to comprehend (or choose to ignore) what is being said. Others may not agree to his vocabulary. But to appreciate Maurice, you have to be fond of "Old School". Most of the elder members of the digest will know what I mean but to the uninformed, this term has a positive connotation meaning something similar to the best of something that is rare to find. In reference to "they can't explain it" vs. "they can explain. they WONT explain", if wordplay is allowed and using some good old math fundamentals then both quotes are equal therefore no dispute: - * + = -. The Use of Kali vs. Arnis I wrote this privately but I will throw it out in public. In the late 1970's I saw Grand Tuhon Gaje and his students do a demonstration in New York's Chinatown, I remember him calling his art, Arnis. Also, pictured on the cover of the April 1977 edition of Official Karate, is Grand Tuhon Gaje with one of his first students Guro Frank Ortega. The caption next to them, "Arnis DeMano: The New Crime Fighter". I'm sure that back then GT Gaje's art was good and deadly as it is today so I can assume that using Kali instead of Arnis was and is simply a different name and nothing more. Respectfully, Al Sardinas A Student Of The Garimot System Of Arnis _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:45:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian Connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Jose, I agree with you 100%. Sir Henry Scott did conclusively prove to a panel of Filipino historians, among them Gregorio Zaide, the fallacies/hoaxes that had come to be accepted as “history” by Filipinos in 1968. Although some historians had since then made amendments to their textbooks, some had clinged stubbornly to what they believed in, most notable of them the aforementioned Zaide up until his passing. It’s a tough battle, even the government agencies from Panay continue to cling to this belief. The feeling is like having the “ancient” heritage of the area harassed. For one, the same feeling is shared by those who believe in the historical legitimacy of the term Kali. It would take time to sip in. nagarespeto, JAMES nephalim1@aim.com wrote: James, I believe the Maragtas legend has been relegated as a hoax or myth much like the Code of Kalantiaw. Best Regards, Jose -----Original Message----- From: james_sy_jr74@yahoo.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thu, 10 May 2007 4:36 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian Connection Correct me if I’m wrong Sir but the Maragtas, which is oral tradition/folklore rather history, tells of the arrival of the 10 Bornean Datus in Panay (Antique Province to be exact) where they inhabited. Some of the datus supposedly left Panay for search of other islands. From there they were said to call central Philippines as Visayas, in honor of their empire. jay de leon wrote: It is interesting to note that the poster's "Sriwijaya" is also spelled as Sri-Vishaya, with its seat of government supposedly in what is now Palembang, Sumatra. Sri is an Indian honorific so the inhabitants were really called Vishayans. The Vishayans settled in what is now Cebu, and spread its influence to the outer provinces, forming the Visayas of the Philippines. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com bgdebuque wrote: Like Indonesia and Malaysia, before Islamic Philippines became "Islamic", they were supposed to have been Buddhist and then Hindu. Try to do some readings on the Sriwijaya and Madjapahit Empires and you will be able to see the connection. The physical remnants of these empires can still be found in the Borobodur and Prambanan temples near Jogjakarta in Central Java. Bali Island near the tip of East Java, on the other hand, have remained loyal to Hinduism until now. I have never ever heard of even a hint of this so "connection" throughout my > education in the Philippines, nor in any reading or even stories or > references. We've always been taught that before christianity and islam > came into the Philippines, animalism and worship of anscestors and nature > was the religion of our forefathers. Even today you see these beliefs > intermixed with catholicism. Buddhism's influence came in through the > chinese communities but never propagated out in any significant way, > probably due to the close community and strick prohibitions of intermarriage > in the chinese culture. There is a fair size community of indians in the > Philippines, but they also tend to keep to themselves (and unfortunately > discriminated on as well). _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Ahhh...imagining that irresistible "new car" smell? Check outnew cars at Yahoo! Autos. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:46:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RE: Re: The Indian Connection To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here is Mr. Mark Cheng of West Los Angeles, L.Ac., to second the motion Mr. Jones: “…some masters fabricated histories for their arts, claiming to have learned from a mystical sage who lived in the mountains, a long-forgotten scroll discovered in a cave or a secret family transmission never made in public. The more ancient the origin and the longer the lineage a school claimed, the more esteem it would garner in the eyes of the public. Such intentional misrepresentation was a product of the culture that spawned these arts. The ancients valued the “old and secret,” while modern people tend to favor the “new and improved.” Because of that, history is being rewritten. In centuries past, the tendency was to develop a technique or school of thought and attribute it to some ancient lineage that didn’t really exist. These days, would-be innovators borrow techniques from others without acknowledging their sources, then claim to have developed an entire body of knowledge after finding all other systems deficient. Often the reality is that the system in question is complete and the student is the one lacking.” History Versus Lies Black Belt magazine JAMES Young Forest wrote: >It is true that China already had its own martial arts even before Shaolin >Kung Fu came about (kuntao seems to be one of them). I have yet to find a >present-day major Chinese Martial Arts School, however, which does not >trace >its lineage to Shaolin Kung Fu (Pek Sil Lum, Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Southern >White Crane, etc, all have Shaolin monks in their lineage - maybe even Tai >Chi Chuan, but I have to check on that first). I wouldn't put too much weight onto that plank. Tracing your lineage back to Shaolin was, frankly, good for business - make a few claims, add an 18 Hands form to the curriculum, and you're set. To the Confucian frame of thought, a profession that didn't have a patron or founder wasn't considered to be a respectable part of society, which is where Bodhidharma comes in. What was once an accepted part of doing business (essentially, padding one's resume), has now become what passes for a historical record in the CMA. Badger Jones Siling Labuyo Arnis www.youngforest.ca _________________________________________________________________ Fight Allergies With Live Search http://search.live.com/results.aspx?q=Remedies+For+Spring+Allergies&mkt=en-ca&FORM=SERNEP _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest