Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 02:58:25 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #149 - 3 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Inosanto and Kali (iPat) 2. Rolex 12 ? (Ray) 3. Re: Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 23:50:35 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Inosanto and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On 5/14/07, james jr. sy wrote: > GM Villabrille learned FMA from his uncle GM Tatang Ilustrisimo. Tatang used the term Escrima. GM Villabrille used Kali. > Hi James, im aware of your point, you'd already noted it as i copy below: You said: May 5 In page 15 of "The Filipino Martial Arts" by Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto, under the ....... Well, that is just basing on GM Inosanto's book. Beyond that, you would have more knowledge on GM LaCoste's and GM Inosantos's relationship and the old man's actual usage of term. One of the things you learn about Guro inosanto when you spend time around him, is his honest endeavour to never disrespect anyone. Last year, in his seminar in Germany, he listed the arts that contributed to the Inosanto blend knife system. Without checking my notes, lets just say he mentioned 12. he then went on to discuss which ones were more beneficial than others but ended up ticking them all! A wry smile will come on the face of any Inosanto student who will recognise this! With every Instructors course i am on, as well as classes, I am exposed to the history element of the FMA. I understand he got this History element from his father. The academy is called the Inosanto Academy not for him but in respect for his familly who helped him set up his school. he puts LaCoste's name before his own when you look at the tee shirts etc. I could go on, but i dont think you are questioning his honesty. What i do know that he is admament on the subject of the terminology, respectfull always to his elders. i have already mentoned the incident when he asked his mother the meaning of a term that Lacoste used which confused many different dialect speakers till his mother used his fathers dialect - imagine that - LaCoste using his fathers dialect to teach the young Inosanto out of respect for his father. Whether this leads the assumption that LaCoste used the term to Inosanto is theoretical but what we do know is that the term is used out of the deepest respect and eminated from those who came from their homeland, returning there to serve during the 2nd world war. These were proud (P!)filipinos who zealously passed on the traditions and history to their youth. I'm not Filipino. I respect the art and i respect my teachers instruction. I have seen his endeavours to study. Terms like this are not commercially intended, they come from a belief that one should respect the elders. I respect your endeavour to find the paper trail and i look forward to hearing of your research, but i trust with good reason the teachings of my lineage. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (Eskrima) Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 17:28:33 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] Rolex 12 ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Just curious... Were any of the so called "Rolex 12" (close advisors to former president Marcos) active in the support and perhaps sportification of Eskrima/Arnis in the RP? Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:59:08 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Kerala "Kali", the Tagalog "Arnes", and the Spanish "Esgrima" are all words which pertain to martial art-related "plays". Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for Chinese Mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino Piko... =[:->] It also seems that there has been too much emphasis on what is written or recorded in evaluating the historical basis of "kali" and the influence of Indian martial arts in the FMA. So I went "knocking" at Wikipedia to determine what consitutes acceptable historical evidence and, here is what I found: "Traditionally, historians have attempted to answer historical questions through the study of written documents, although historical research is not limited merely to these sources. In general, the sources of historical knowledge can be separated into three categories: what is written, what is said, and what is physically preserved, and historians often consult all three.... However, the rise of academic professionalism and the creation of new scientific fields in the 19th and 20th centuries brought a flood of new information that challenged this notion. Archaeology, anthropology and other social sciences provided new information and theories about human history..... Sources that can give light on the past, such as oral tradition, linguistics, and genetics, have become accepted by many mainstream historians." Accordingly, mere superficial comparison of Kalaripayattu with the FMA will generate the following similarities: *Language of Practitioners* Wikipedia says: "*Malayalam* is the language spoken predominantly in the state of Kerala, in southern India. It is one of the 23 official languages of India, spoken by around 37 million people. A native speaker of Malayalam is called a 'Malayali'. The language is closely related to Tamil. However, Malayalam has a script of its own, covering all alphabets of Sanskrit as well as special Dravidian letters." "Languages that have made significant contributions to *Tagalog* are Spanish, Min Nan Chinese, English, Malay, Sanskrit (via Malay), Arabic (via Malay/Spanish), and Northern Philippine languages such as Kapampangan spoken on the island of Luzon.... There are no surviving written samples of Tagalog before the arrival of the Spanish in the 16th century. Some say that all the written texts were burned by the first Spanish priest, claiming that they were demonic. Very little is known about the history of the language. However there is speculation among linguists that the ancestors of the Tagalogs originated, along with their Central Philippine cousins, from northeastern Mindanao or eastern Visayas." ** *"Tausug* is a Visayan language spoken in Sulu province in the Philippines. It is also spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia." Is it just mere coincidence then that masters in Kalaripayattu are known as "Gurukkal" while those in the FMA, Indonesian MA and Malaysian MA are addressed as "Guru"? *Attire of Practitioners* Wikipedia says: "*Sarongs* are widespread in the South Indian state of Kerala, where they are called mundu, as well as in Tamil Nadu, where they are called Sarem, and are usually worn at home. Unlike the brightly coloured Southeast Asian sarongs, the Keralan variety is more often plain white and is worn for ceremonial or religious purposes." "Malay men wear *sarongs* in public only when attending Friday prayers at the mosque, but sarongs remain very common casual wear at home for men and women of all races and religions in Brunei, Indonesia, and Malaysia.... In the Philippines it is also known as a *malong*." *Stick Orientation * Wikipedia on Kalaripayattu: "Historically, after the completion of 'Ankathari' training (literally, "war training"), the student would specialize in a weapon of his choice, to become an expert swordsman or stick fighter." Hhhhmmm... Could these be the hint to the answer to the question on whether pre-Hispanic FMA is primarily blade-based or stick-based? Given the foregoing considerations, what would a pre-Hispanic FMA stick-fighter look like? I guess he would be a short, brown-skinned man, clad in a sarong with a rattan cane stick on his hand addressing his teacher as "Guru". Fast forward him 500 years to today.... and try to comb the entire world for the non-FMA martial arts school whose practitioners would resemble him the closest.... Indonesian and Malaysian Silat would have been possible choices... as long as you ignore the fact that they don't really like to "play" with sticks that much...=[:->] > -- __--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:19:32 -0700 (PDT) > From: "james jr. sy" > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Eskrima (swordplay/fencing), Chinese mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino > piko are all "plays" too but they have nothing to do with Kali. From an > academic point of view, such reasoning is erroneous and invalid. As PG Mat > said, you don't take words literally. > > The point in comparing Florante at Laura and Yambao's book is the date i.e. > 1831 and 1957 respectively. How do you refute that without resorting to > conjecture on "play?" Kali is supposed to be the original term but why is > it we have Arnis recorded first? > > And how can Arnis be Kali when Kali is claimed to be the original, purer, > and the mother art? > > Since you said that "it seems to appear to me that "Arnis" is maybe the > Hispanized version of "Kali," and that you believe that Kali came from the > Indian martial art of Kalaripayattu, what particular Hindu influences can > you point out in Arnis? > > PG Mat posted his definition of kalisin "to level off" which doesn't > connect to your "play." > > Seems to appear, maybe, seem, implies…are all words that denote doubt. > > > bgdebuque wrote: Since based on the previous posts > below, the meaning of the Indian word > "Kali" is "play" and Francisco Balagtas in "Florante at Laura" also refers > to Arnis as "laro", which literally also means "play", it seems to appear > to me that "Arnis" is maybe the Hispanized version of "Kali". > > Even the timing of the first recorded appearance of the word "Arnes" > [1831] > seem to support this. If I remember it right, it was also in the 19th > century when the drive to Hispanize all Filipino names started - which > implies that there would also have been similar pressure to Hispanize > other > politically-sensitive native terms, like the one pertaining to the native > fighting arts. > > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) > > From: aby paul > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection > > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > > Hello, > > > > The 'Kali' which you mentioned in 'Kol-Kali','Thacholi-Kali' means ' > > play'. Kolkali-Stick Play. > > ParichamuttuKali-Sword and Shield play. These all arts are derived for > > kalaripayattu. > > > > The way we say Hindu Godess kali is' Kaali'. > > > > Just my few cents > > Paul --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest