Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 13:00:07 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #150 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.3 required=5.0 tests=NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Who's who in FMA history (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #147 - 8 msgs) (jay de leon) 2. Indian influence in FMA (gatpuno@aol.com) 3. Presas Brothers Feud (Alex Ercia) 4. (no subject) (Alex Ercia) 5. Re: Alex Ercia and the FMA Festival (jay de leon) 6. Re: Indian influence in FMA (iPat) 7. Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? (Federico Malibago) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 22:59:42 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Who's who in FMA history (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #147 - 8 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James: As I posted earlier, my shorin-ryu school was part of Johnny Carranza's Siete Pares confederation. I met him a couple of times during belt testing, the only time other than tournaments that the seven schools actually got together. My belt certificate was issued by the Siete Pares confederation, not by PHICKAJU, probably signed by Johnny Carranza ( I will have to dig it up from my stored archives). Somebody subsequently told me that he eventually also became an NBI agent and was killed in the line of duty during a drug bust. Is this true? PG Mat, FWIW, another good source about martial arts in Manila is Topher Ricketts, who of course trained with Tatang, Johnny Chiuten, Doc Lengson, kung-fu masters in Chinatown and other martial arts greats. As you can imagine, he has many first hand stories about martial arts shenanigans in Manila. Just in case you are considering writing a book... Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Pananandta@aol.com wrote: James, Great information. I studied Aikido under Sensei Ambrosio Gavileno and shorin ryu from Sensei Latino Gonzales. I would have mentioned that there must have been a great deal of activity in southern Philippines when I was still in the Philippines. Unfortunately, news from southern Philippines during my time did not get to be printed in national newspapers. Most of the things printed in the news was of the unpleasant kind. Perhaps that was the reason why many FMA practitioners from southern Philippines went to Manila to teach - to get more exposure. We cannot really get a complete list of Filipino martial artists of different discipline unless, we go around the country with pen and paper. This will entail a lot of time and cost. But of course, it can happen, if a univeristy gets a financial grant for somebody to make a dedicated study of the subject. Perhaps, a thesis. In the meantime, we just have to be satisfied with your input, my input, Gatpuno's input, Jay's input and others who had given bits and pieces of very important information on the subject. In the process, we are filling up some very blank pages in FMA history. Thanks. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/14/2007 9:50:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hi PG Mat and Gat Puno Abon, Up to today Manila is still the center of martial arts growth and development in the Philippines largely due to the fact that it is the capital of the country and it serves as a melting pot of various martial traditions. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was introduced to the Philippines in 2001 via Manila. At about the same time, Capoeira Grupo Manila (CGM), the first Capoeira group in the Philippines, was already in existence. The national governing bodies for various martial sports recognized by the Philippine Olympic Committee (POC) and the Philippine Sports Commission (PSC) such as the Arnis Philippines (Arpi), Muay Association of the Philippines (MAP), Philippine Amateur Judo Association (PAJA), Philippine Karate-do Federation (PKF), Philippine Pencak Silat Association (Philsilat), Philippine Taekwondo Association (PTA), and Wushu Federation of the Philippines (WFP) are based in the NCR. The major governing bodies for traditional aikido (Aikikai) in the country Aikido Philippines, PAPA, Filipino Federation of aikido – all based in Manila. The Ki Association International of former Philippine Ki no Kenkyukai Chief Instructor Ernesto Talag Sensei and the Tapondo Internatioanl Federation Inc. 9TIFI) of founder/Master Ambrosio “Monching” J. Gavileño are also based in Manila. Nevertheless, many of the pioneers in Philippine martial arts came from the provinces among them: Latino Gonzales Sensei (Jaro, iloilo) - Father of Shorin-ryu Karate in the Philippines. Johnny Carranza Sensei of the Siete Pares Karate Association (Tanjay, Oriental Negros) - Philippine action and karate star. GM Casimiro A. Grandeza Bacolod City)- Father of Karate in Negros. Was teaching Karate in the province as early as the 1960s. Also pioneer of Combat judo and Arnis thru his White Kimono. Became the first Filipino to finish a masters’ course in Korea under the moo Duk Kwan of the late GM Hwang Kee and went on to become the first Filipino grandmaster of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and the founder/president of the Philippine Moo Duk Kwan Inc.-Korea Tang soo Do Association (PMDKI-KTSDA). Ceferino “Jun” F. Vasquez Sensei (Bacolod City) - Trained intensively in Japan under Nakayama, Masatoshi Sensei, then 9th dan. He brought Sasaki, Kunio Sensei, then 6th dan, to the Philippines as the sole representative of Japan Karate Association (JKA) to the country. Johnny Chuiten (Cebu) - Former president of the Karate Federation of the Philippines (KAFEPHIL), technical consultant of the Chin Wu Athletic Association of the Philippines, and vice president of the Cebu Escrima Association. A prominent figure in Kung Fu, Escrima, and Karate in the early days. Founder of Pronus Supinus. Pancho Villa (Ilog, Negros Occidental) - The first world Wesertn Boxing champion from Asia. Flash Elorde (Cebu) - Great Filipino world Western Boxing champion who also did Balintawak Escrima. Labangon Fencing Club - Pioneer group of escrima in cebu which later evolved into the Doce Pares. Doce Pares - The most established Cebuano FMA organization having been f ounded in 1932 by several Eskrimadores, among them the Saavedras and the Cañetes. GM Remegio “Remy” A. Presas (Hinigaran, negros Occidental) - PE university professor for Judo and Arnis. The first from Negros to write an FMA book. Founder of Presas Style Modern Arnis, the most practiced FMA style in the world. Master Monching Gavileño (Guimaras) - Founde of the first Filipino style of Aikido, Tapondo (a.k.a. Combat Aikido). A Philippine Aikido pioneer. Former member of Aikikai in the Philippines. Founded the Philippine Aikido Sports Association Inc. (PASAI), which was later renamed to the Philippine Combat Aikido Federation (PCAF) in 1992 and then Tapondo International Federation Inc. (TIFI) in 2000 or 2001. Paquit Valencia Sensei (Iloilo City) - One of the first Filipinos to have studied Aikido. Taught Aikido in Guam. Was also an Judo black belt. Passed away with a 4th dan from Aikikai Hombu. Max C. Tian Sensei (Cebu) - Head of Shinshintoitsu Aikido in Cebu. I know I missed out others, particularly in Luzon. I apologize for the shortcoming of the list. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 09:06:23 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Indian influence in FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, I was not interested to touch this Kali term and such again. But this new note the wikepidia is coming out, is also not all true and truth for some extend. First of all it is disturbing the word "kali" to be claimed as the pure-r, mother of FMA. But I mentioned on my previous post, that I accepted as new term recognized as FMA in the world. Cant change that now. But to the base historical fact, routing the truth historical connection of the Indian to FMA is more practical than saying its came to original Filipino right?. One, we both used the "Guru" in Indian and "Guro" in Filipino mean teacher, Indian used the word "Rajah" (King or Chieftain) and everyone knows we have many "Filipino Rajah" before the Spanish arrive to the Philippines (Rajah Humabon, Rajah Lapu-lapu, Rajah Solaiman of Tondo few to mention), and Filipino language, you can trace the word "Sandata" or weapon is Indian word to, also "Maharlika"(Royal). This few word that sometimes make me think to ties in Indian Influence. On my History of FMA this I point it out. I really dont care what other historian would said if they read my book, it is my right to write my collective information and my own invistative wrok in regards of FMA history. In regards of the "Sarong" Malong to Filipino, I was trying not touch this becaused of Moslem tradition wear. But if you look at it in the Philippines, right before the Spanish arrive, Filipino is using "Capresse" tight short pants, or "Baag, bahag" (loincloths) and then wrap around with shorter version of the Women "Malong". This is a significant tradition intact to all Asian country. Indian is one of the oldest recorded civilization in word history. But if you read the Filipino history, the Indian only reach the Philippines on 1700's during the English/Dutch Invaded the Philippines and settle in Rizal at tha time they call "Morong" caused of the Muslim settlement before them. Now to rooth that to a FMA this is still un-clear. Becaused we have different movement and lengh of weapon used in Indian stickfighting. In regards of the old Stick Fighting arts of the Philippines, there is none older than "Arnis, Eskrima, Estokada.", Why? it is becaused the native Filipino dont used stick they used Lances, Spear, Bow and Arrow and short ad Long Bladed weapons. The stick came about on the biginning of 1610 when the introduction of the Spanish "Zarsuela" or Moro-moro" in Filipino was force to used stick for training so it lessen the inujry for practiced of Arnes de mano, and Esgrima. The Moro-moro came about becaused of the run of the story is always the Moors VS Christian and off-course the Christian always win at the end The so called Shows/play is necessary one player learn the basic "Escrima" and the used of sword "Estoque" for "Estokada". Since the FMA is banned they hide every basic movement, and stikes and block, drills of FMA thru "Batalya" Combat Dances. I am ready to publish my book in "Moro-moro" the Shrouded Art of Arnis de Mano. it will be more than 200 pages, with more 700 pictures illustration. Well, hopefully this will help a bit to the readers. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA www.garimot.com Tel. 954-543-4422 Message: 3 Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:59:08 -0400 From: bgdebuque Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? The Kerala "Kali", the Tagalog "Arnes", and the Spanish "Esgrima" are all words which pertain to martial art-related "plays". It also seems that there has been too much emphasis on what is written or recorded in evaluating the historical basis of "kali" and the influence of Indian martial arts in the FMA. So I went "knocking" at Wikipedia to determine what consitutes acceptable historical evidence and, here is what I found: "Traditionally, historians have attempted to answer historical questions through the study of written documents, although historical research is not limited merely to these sources. In general, the sources of historical knowledge can be separated into three categories: what is written, what is said, and what is physically preserved, and historians often consult all three.... However, the rise of academic professionalism and the creation of new scientific fields in the 19th and 20th centuries brought a flood of new information that challenged this notion. Archaeology, anthropology and other social sciences provided new information and theories about human history..... Sources that can give light on the past, such as oral tradition, linguistics, and genetics, have become accepted by many mainstream historians." Accordingly, mere superficial comparison of Kalaripayattu with the FMA will generate the following similarities: *Language of Practitioners* Wikipedia says: "*Malayalam* is the language spoken predominantly in the state of Kerala, in southern India. It is one of the 23 official languages of India, spoken by around 37 million people. A native speaker of Malayalam is called a 'Malayali'. The language is closely related to Tamil. However, Malayalam has a script of its own, covering all alphabets of Sanskrit as well as special Dravidian letters." "Languages that have made significant contributions to *Tagalog* are Spanish, Min Nan Chinese, English, Malay, Sanskrit (via Malay), Arabic (via Malay/Spanish), and Northern Philippine languages such as Kapampangan spoken on the island of Luzon.... There are no surviving written samples of Tagalog before the arrival of the Spanish in the 16th century. Some say that all the written texts were burned by the first Spanish priest, claiming that they were demonic. Very little is known about the history of the language. However there is speculation among linguists that the ancestors of the Tagalogs originated, along with their Central Philippine cousins, from northeastern Mindanao or eastern Visayas." ** *"Tausug* is a Visayan language spoken in Sulu province in the Philippines. It is also spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia." Is it just mere coincidence then that masters in Kalaripayattu are known as "Gurukkal" while those in the FMA, Indonesian MA and Malaysian MA are addressed as "Guru"? *Attire of Practitioners* Wikipedia says: "*Sarongs* are widespread in the South Indian state of Kerala, where they are called mundu, as well as in Tamil Nadu, where they are called Sarem, and are usually worn at home. Unlike the brightly coloured Southeast Asian sarongs, the Keralan variety is more often plain white and is worn for ceremonial or religious purposes." "Malay men wear *sarongs* in public only when attending Friday prayers at the mosque, but sarongs remain very common casual wear at home for men and women of all races and religions in Brunei, Indonesia, and Malaysia.... In the Philippines it is also known as a *malong*." *Stick Orientation * Wikipedia on Kalaripayattu: "Historically, after the completion of 'Ankathari' training (literally, "war training"), the student would specialize in a weapon of his choice, to become an expert swordsman or stick fighter." Hhhhmmm... Could these be the hint to the answer to the question on whether pre-Hispanic FMA is primarily blade-based or stick-based? Given the foregoing considerations, what would a pre-Hispanic FMA stick-fighter look like? I guess he would be a short, brown-skinned man, clad in a sarong with a rattan cane stick on his hand addressing his teacher as "Guru". Fast forward him 500 years to today.... and try to comb the entire world for the non-FMA martial arts school whose practitioners would resemble him the closest.... Indonesian and Malaysian Silat would have been possible choices... as long as you ignore the fact that they don't really like to "play" with sticks that much...=[:->] ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:29:01 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Presas Brothers Feud Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I really did not want to jump on this topic. But here I am just sharing what GM Ernesto shared with me bout his feelings bout his brother the Late GM Remy. I remember when I first met GM Remy and I mentioned his brother as my main Teacher. He was excited and showed me stuff that he would not particularly show strangers. Even his asistant instructor was surprised to see such techniques. Because he asked me who I was and why we were talking the language. I told them I was family. ANd whatever the topic was. It was family talk. He showed and asked movements if Ernesto showed and taught me such movements to check if I am really from his brother. This I guess is how they check us out from the Philippines. GM Remy showed so much love to me. Like a brother. Going back the the brothers sibling rivalry.GM Ernesto loves his brother so much. He showed the utmost respect to his older brother. Yes, there is the sibling rivalry that had been going on with the two. But that happens with all of us. I guess we were trying to get the two back together in the late 80's and mid 90's. Which did not pan down because of distance and commitment. I remember even Shishir Inocalla had the same intent. But the Presas brothers although had such sibling rivalry had the love and respect for each other. Let's just bury this story. I am a long time personal student of GM Ernesto. To us KOMBATAN is not a branch of Modern ARnis. It is one and the same. Just a differently spelled name. Why because GM Ernesto chose this name with the help of Master Lito Concepcion to have distinction of what Ernesto might teach differently with his flavor. So there it goes. The Presas family has no doubt shared their art to the whole world. It is better to just forget about such minor or petty feuds amongst brothers. If you love the Presas family arts it does not matter who you studied with. IPMAF, IMAF, ARMAS, you name it we are all brothers and not considered competitors against each other. Come and head out to Vallejo CA. I will gladly share my little knowledge to you. That's how hospitable we are. Take care bros! Just my two cents. Alex Ercia _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazines 2007 editors choice for best Web mailaward-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Alex Ercia" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 08:45:25 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI Kuya Jay! It is true that the Presas family organizations are all dysfunctional. We would not be filipino if it weren't that way. It is a joke folks. Laugh it you would. We Filipinos love titles to gain respect from others. I guess that's why the titles are overused so to speak. I remember at the 3rd World FMA gathering in Tagaytay. If you were not aware there was a little politics going on. Why because most of the guys teaching(Filipino instructors) suddenly claimed the title Grandmaster(Hey except for me. hahaha!)Except for the Highest ranking instructor in the PHilippines Senior Master Cristino Vasquez. Why? I do not know. All I know is that is how it was. I have respect for all who taught from Sir Bambit to Dan Anderson and the like. But see how dysfunctional the Presas family is? I bet and I am not mentioning names that in GM REmy's family here in the US of A his students have dysfunctionality too. There are so many organizations that represent GM Remy. This may be because of the love for GM Remy and his art. But we are all dysfunctional whether we like it or not because we got that from the Filipino culture. Crab mentality if you would call it. Sorry guys! We don't want to admit it but this may be half true. I am not here to insult anybody. I am here to try and explain what I observed. Mind you I am Filipino and part of the PResas Family arts. Just my two cent my brothers. Let's just get along and practice/workout/have a great time together. No more of this petty talk. Alex Ercia-ARMAS USA/Tabimina Balintawak USA Salinas Chapter. _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 11:31:58 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Alex Ercia and the FMA Festival To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net For the information of ED list members, Alex Ercia was a featured instructor at the FMA Festival training camp, together with all the other Grandmaster. He is also a close friend of GM Cristino Vasquez. Alex, there was politics at the 3rd FMA Festival? No shit. It was Europe vs.Middle East, IMAFP vs. non-IMAFP, Modern Arnis vs. non-Modern Arnis, Grandmasters vs. Senior and Junior Masters, Taal Lodge vs. non-Taal Lodge, U.S. American arnisadors vs. U.S. pinoy arnisadors, awardee vs. non-awardee, instructor vs. not-invited-to-be-an-instructor, and the list goes on. The funny part is I had the best of times. My son had a ball training with so many great instructors he had heard about. I was reunited with my guro Godofredo Fajardo (who came from Saudi Arabia) after so many years, and we spent our free time eating and drinking at Andok's with GM Cris Vasquez, Mike Gubat and others. I finally got to meet many of IMAFP lakans I only met via email like Jimson Dearos, Cocoy Oyales, Roy de Leon (no relation), etc. I got to hang out with Yuli Romo, Jerry de la Cruz, Rodel Dagooc, Roland Dantes and many more "name" arnisadors. I saw buddies from the US like Rey Galang, Topher Ricketts, Arnold Noche and others. I flirted with some pretty German arnisadoras. It was arnis training heaven. As I said in a previous post, the politics is but a small price to pay for enjoying an art we all love. Alex, with an attitude like that in your last paragraph, you might not qualify anymore for dysfunctional. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com Alex Ercia wrote: HI Kuya Jay! It is true that the Presas family organizations are all dysfunctional. We would not be filipino if it weren't that way. It is a joke folks. Laugh it you would. We Filipinos love titles to gain respect from others. I guess that's why the titles are overused so to speak. I remember at the 3rd World FMA gathering in Tagaytay. If you were not aware there was a little politics going on. Why because most of the guys teaching(Filipino instructors) suddenly claimed the title Grandmaster(Hey except for me. hahaha!)Except for the Highest ranking instructor in the PHilippines Senior Master Cristino Vasquez. Why? I do not know. All I know is that is how it was. I have respect for all who taught from Sir Bambit to Dan Anderson and the like. But see how dysfunctional the Presas family is? I bet and I am not mentioning names that in GM REmy's family here in the US of A his students have dysfunctionality too. There are so many organizations that represent GM Remy. This may be because of the love for GM Remy and his art. But we are all dysfunctional whether we like it or not because we got that from the Filipino culture. Crab mentality if you would call it. Sorry guys! We don't want to admit it but this may be half true. I am not here to insult anybody. I am here to try and explain what I observed. Mind you I am Filipino and part of the PResas Family arts. Just my two cent my brothers. Let's just get along and practice/workout/have a great time together. No more of this petty talk. Alex Ercia-ARMAS USA/Tabimina Balintawak USA Salinas Chapter. _________________________________________________________________ More photos, more messages, more storageget 2GB with Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_2G_0507 _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 19:28:01 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Indian influence in FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net sounds like an interesting book! i look forward to it! On 5/15/07, gatpuno@aol.com wrote: > I am ready to publish my book in "Moro-moro" > the Shrouded Art of Arnis de Mano. it will be more than 200 pages, with > more 700 pictures illustration. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:39:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ok, Ill make a few points, nothing too deep (Ive been out of study for too long on the topic). First off in Tagalog at least it is Guro not Guru. Proper pronunciation, well an exaggerated pronunciation, but closer to the native would be something like Goo-Row (short on the las syllable) and not the goo-roo (long last syllable) associated with the Indian term. I know my mom always likes to laugh when people say goo-roo and refer to it as a Tagalog word. This change in pronunciation, at least in the American sense, is more related to the lack of native Tagalog speakers for many American pracitioners and the far more popular culture idea of the Indian Guru. The linguistic study of language to trace connections is very complicated, and looks for more than just one or two words in isolation, but rather approaches the whole language (grammar, syntax, etc...) to determine connections with other languages, such as when languages split, etc... They are actually very accurate at doing this. Tagalog is most related to Malay, if you really want to go down this route. Manila at the time of Spanish conquest, was the Muslim Sultanate of Tondo, a colony/offshoot of the N Borneo Sultanate (the Sultans were related). So the connection, at least in regards to these people, is not with Mindanao or Visaya, but rather N Borneo (and if we go by relationship of the royalty at the time) in a long way the Sultanate of Sulu (of course as time goes by the Sultanates in Mindanao cross marry, but we are talking at the time of separation by Spanish conquest). And of course this does not speak to the whole of the people on Luzon, of which there were many distinct tribes at the time with their own traditions and cultures. However of course how separate was that separation is dependent on time period. Sultan Kudarat appealed to his Visayan brothers to re-join him in support of their common roots against the Spanish. Part of the reason the Sultan of Tondo was executed was that the Spanish felt he was colluding with the Sultan of Brunei, for which they also launched retalliatory attacks against the Sultanate of Brunei (if my memory isnt playing tricks on me). Anyways, historians weigh the evidence as to credibility. In general, period evidence (e.g. from the time you are studying) is always considered the best, and the closer you can get to the event that you are studying the better (e.g. an eye-witness vs a third person account). This is why there tends to be so much emphasis on period writing, as it tends to be the closest to the time period of which we are studying, and the least removed. Of course native accounts are just as valid (or more so depending on what you really are trying to find), but even with written accounts you look to see how you can verify evidence against other evidence (e.g. you dont find one manuscript and end your inquiry you compare it to as many other sources as you can find). There are alot of new thoughts into other ways of finding silent histories, including oral traditions, but this is more than simply taking anyone off the street and trusting the face value of what they say. As with all other evidence, it must be verified against other evidence. Furthermore, it also depends on how much of a traditionalist your historian is. Older historians will sometimes only look at the written record for direct evidence, more newly trained historians may look at other things. The field is hardly unamynous, however alot of the older historians still dominate key faculty positions. Anyways, Wikipedia is hardly dispositve on the subject, and would not be an acceptable reference in any academic circle. There are a number of good books, that are written by well respected historians from which you can get answers. William Henry Scott's work has been mentioned. As I noted elsewhere to you, spending some time in the library would answer alot of your questions. >Message: 3 >Date: Tue, 15 May 2007 00:59:08 -0400 >From: bgdebuque >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > >The Kerala "Kali", the Tagalog "Arnes", and the Spanish "Esgrima" are >all words which pertain to martial art-related "plays". Unfortunately, I >cannot say the same for Chinese Mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino Piko... >=[:->] > >It also seems that there has been too much emphasis on what is written or >recorded in evaluating the historical basis of "kali" and the influence of >Indian martial arts in the FMA. So I went "knocking" at Wikipedia to >determine what consitutes acceptable historical evidence and, here is what I >found: > > >"Traditionally, historians have attempted to answer historical questions >through the study of written documents, although historical research is not >limited merely to these sources. In general, the sources of historical >knowledge can be separated into three categories: what is written, what is >said, and what is physically preserved, and historians often consult all >three.... However, the rise of academic professionalism and the creation of >new scientific fields in the 19th and 20th centuries brought a flood of new >information that challenged this notion. Archaeology, anthropology and >other social sciences provided new information and theories about human >history..... Sources that can give light on the past, such as oral >tradition, linguistics, and genetics, have become accepted by many >mainstream historians." >Accordingly, mere superficial comparison of Kalaripayattu with the FMA will >generate the following similarities: > >*Language of Practitioners* > >Wikipedia says: > >"*Malayalam* is the language spoken predominantly in the state of Kerala, in >southern India. It is one of the 23 official languages of India, spoken by >around 37 million people. A native speaker of Malayalam is called a >'Malayali'. The language is closely related to Tamil. However, Malayalam >has a script of its own, covering all alphabets of Sanskrit as well as >special Dravidian letters." > >"Languages that have made significant contributions to *Tagalog* are >Spanish, Min Nan Chinese, English, Malay, Sanskrit (via Malay), Arabic (via >Malay/Spanish), and Northern Philippine languages such as Kapampangan spoken >on the island of Luzon.... There are no surviving written samples of Tagalog >before the arrival of the Spanish in the 16th century. Some say that all >the written texts were burned by the first Spanish priest, claiming that >they were demonic. Very little is known about the history of the language. >However there is speculation among linguists that the ancestors of the >Tagalogs originated, along with their Central Philippine cousins, from >northeastern Mindanao or eastern Visayas." >** >*"Tausug* is a Visayan language spoken in Sulu province in the Philippines. >It is also spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia." > >Is it just mere coincidence then that masters in Kalaripayattu are known as >"Gurukkal" while those in the FMA, Indonesian MA and Malaysian MA are >addressed as "Guru"? > >*Attire of Practitioners* > >Wikipedia says: > >"*Sarongs* are widespread in the South Indian state of Kerala, where they >are called mundu, as well as in Tamil Nadu, where they are called Sarem, and >are usually worn at home. Unlike the brightly coloured Southeast Asian >sarongs, the Keralan variety is more often plain white and is worn for >ceremonial or religious purposes." > >"Malay men wear *sarongs* in public only when attending Friday prayers at >the mosque, but sarongs remain very common casual wear at home for men and >women of all races and religions in Brunei, Indonesia, and Malaysia.... In >the Philippines it is also known as a *malong*." > >*Stick Orientation * > >Wikipedia on Kalaripayattu: > >"Historically, after the completion of 'Ankathari' training (literally, "war >training"), the student would specialize in a weapon of his choice, to >become an expert swordsman or stick fighter." > >Hhhhmmm... Could these be the hint to the answer to the question on >whether pre-Hispanic FMA is primarily blade-based or stick-based? > >Given the foregoing considerations, what would a pre-Hispanic FMA >stick-fighter look like? > >I guess he would be a short, brown-skinned man, clad in a sarong with a >rattan cane stick on his hand addressing his teacher as "Guru". > >Fast forward him 500 years to today.... and try to comb the entire world >for the non-FMA martial arts school whose practitioners would resemble him >the closest.... Indonesian and Malaysian Silat would have been possible >choices... as long as you ignore the fact that they don't really like to >"play" with sticks that much...=[:->] --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest