Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 03:00:39 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #153 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. ptk unarmed-dumpag ? (Paula Eircom) 2. GM Tobosa (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #152 - 6 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 3. Book on FMA history in the Phil (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #152 - 6 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 4. Kali - Indonesian Term (Mark Harrell) 5. Re: Crane Style of Arnis de Mano? (bgdebuque) 6. Re: Inosanto and Kali (bgdebuque) 7. Re: GM Tobosa (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #152 - 6 msgs) (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 11:16:24 +0100 From: "Paula Eircom" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] ptk unarmed-dumpag ? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi, i recently came across this website http://realdefense.org/pekiti_dumpag.html . is it possible to learn this without prior knowledge of pekitit tirsia weapons .its said in pekiti website that the empty hands derives from the blade.Have seen in some other forums that founder GT Gaje is an expert in some silat styles like Kuntao tepki ,lanka empat .Is Dumpag an off shoot of these silat styles. thanks in advance --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:08:35 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] GM Tobosa (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #152 - 6 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I exchanged mails with GM Tobosa back in mid to late 1970s. I still have the photographs he sent me and his letters. Great photos and deep insight into the FMA. I kept the photos and the letters because it is part of FMA history in the US. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/17/2007 6:03:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: After GM Tobosa passed away Teofisto (Toby) Tobosa inherited the system. I believe Teofisto passed in 2000, I'm not sure who became the official "inheritor" (if there is one) of the Tobosa system after that. Some of the people you could check with: Sifu Al Dacascos Maestro Mike Delmar Maestra Josephine "Joey" del Mar Maestro Don Mendoza All of whom were direct students of GM Tobosa. Sifu Al sent me some photos of GM Tobosa & Teofisto Tobosa a while back. A couple were the same ones that are in Wiley's book. Another was an old B&W photo of him with GM Raymond and Teofisto Tobosa back in the early 70's. Great photos. Not much to go on but I hope that helps Guro William Schultz Mongrel Combative Arts Philippine Combative Martial Arts New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 08:52:46 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Book on FMA history in the Phil (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #152 - 6 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bot, Great news! The baton is passed successsfully. Anything I can do to help, you got it. I was thinking of doing a seminar on how to write a book on the FMA. Two months ago, I offered (Master Steve Tappin of Escrima Concepts, England) to do one in England. He asked for some time because he conducts seminars all over Europe and he needs to talk to his group. My profile is in his website escrimaconcepts. I have written a procedure on how to write a book on the FMA. The procedure starts from the conceptual stage (thinking of writing a book) and finishes with looking for a publisher. The procedure includes computer software and hardware requirements. The procedure is based on my experiences in having 10 books published, one (1) scheduled for release in July 2007, and two (2) in 2008. I will send you some things to your email. Some of my new students will be very jealous to know that you have a copy of my Pananandata Rope Fighting book. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/17/2007 6:03:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hi PG Mat; I had thought about it, but I feel it should be a group endeavor. I certainly need help from a lot of people! Your knowledge and experience will help a great deal. Manong Jay? Manong Jorge? Alex Ercia? James Sy? Sali kayo!!! Other guys here? This is our history! BTW, PG, I have two of your books. One of them is an early, locally published copy of Pananandata: Dalawang Yantok. The other one is Pananandata Rope Fighting. The University's Filipiniana collection has a copy of one of your books (sorry I forgot which title - have to go back and look). Bot ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 18:01:06 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The term Kali can be found in the Indonesian dictionary: "An English - Indonesian Dictionary" by John M. Echols and Hassan Shadily Copyright 1975 by Cornell University (second paperback printing in 1985) International Standard Book Number (paperback) 0-8014-9859-7 Library of Congress Catalog Number 72-5638 Printed in the United States of America Page Number 487 Look under the term: RIVER You will find several terms listed for RIVER but one will be the term, KALI. The Indonesian term Kali meaning RIVER makes sense on many levels for those of us who practice Kali. Just look at the chacteristics of a RIVER: --- Based upon natural law --- Formless and shapeless so it can assume any form or shape to serve its purpose --- Seeks the path of least resistance --- Supports, nutures and protects life --- Can take a life --- Moves in straight or curved lines in accordance with what is needed to continue to flow --- The curved Kris sword shape reflects the characteristics of a river and this sword seems to      be a favorite symbol in both Kali and Eskrima arts.  --- All rivers are feed into by multiple streams (meaning many influances contribute to its whole) Etc, etc, etc... You get the idea... I am not a historian or so called expert but I do like the Indonesian term and definition more than many of the other definitions offered. To each their own I guess. Of particular interest to me is the simularity of how Indonesian Pentjak Silat Jurus and Langkahs are taught and expressed which I find to be simular to how some systems of Kali are taught and expressed. I am just sharing some interesting insights or opinions so please refrain from attacking me personally or challenging me to a death match... I am only offering something to think about and perhaps investigate further if you are interested. I am not writing to prove a point or say that this is better than that etc... Peace be with you, Mark Harrell             ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 22:52:26 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Crane Style of Arnis de Mano? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi! Surprisingly, it seems that "Binakaw" sounds very similar to the name of the crane-style Silat - "Bangaw". Was the style fully-developed indigenously in Laguna, or does it partially trace its lineage to other foreign crane styles [eg. Silat Bangaw, Southern White Crane Kung Fu, etc.]? > Message: 3 > From: GatPuno@aol.com > Date: Wed, 16 May 2007 09:52:30 EDT > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Crane Style of Arnis de Mano? > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > In regards of the "Crane Style of Arnis, Eskrima, Estokada". The Crane > style > is one of the famous style of Arnis in Laguna called "Binakaw" is sub > system > that we used, and one of the strongest fighting style in Largo mano style > (Long > Range), that we teach in our brand of Largo Mano. Basically the Binakaw > is > always part of the Siete Colores Arnis de Mano. Many GM called their art > Siete > Pares Arnis, Siete Palo, Siete Stilo, Laban Tulisan,, Pitong Patama, > Pitong > Taga, Numerado Pito at Pito-pito Eskrima. > > In my particular Siete Colores, we follow the original pattern of the 10 > Maestro that I studied with under, with is start with (1) Bantay > Salakay(Guard > and > attack), (2) Kalong Salikop (Carry and Catch), (3) Tukang Binakaw (Crane > Attack), (4) Silong Labuyo (Trapping Wild Rooster), (5) Harang sa Parang > (Block > the fields), (6)Sunong-sunong (shade and shade), and (7) Patutok Pana > (Point > and Thrust). > > Striking in Siete Colores Arnis varies per Maestro, but the Common stikes > is > (1)Buhat Araw (Blow from the sun), (2) Tagang Alanganin (Cutting to the > middle), (3)Aldabis (Upward hook slash), (4)Bartikal (Backhand > down-sideward > slash), > (5) Saboy sabukay (Splash and upward cut), (6) Pugot ulo (head cutting) > and > (7) Saka (digging attacks) or thrust. > > The uniqueness of the style all of the position, like Fighting Stances, > Strikes, and Defensive movement has particular named. To somewhat is easy > for > the > practitioner to remember the meaning and technical usage of each. Easy to > teach and easy to absorb, now the hardest part of the style is to apply, > this > where we "burned" our time, in playful sparring, sparring, and more > sparring, > perfecting each position of attack and defense. The only thing that we > are > different that the others, Siete Colores has not force you to block, the > teaching is force you to avoid instead of block and strike. They consider > that > as a > waste of movements, but I classify that in my particular style now is > defend > to the situation. I used Sumbrada, sometimes known as Payong, Sunong, and > Pandong all of them meaning shades, If the timing off to strike > on-coming > attack is already half way there, I basically taeaches to cover first > before > attacking. But this is my father and I interpreatation. A lots of the > Maestro > is > not allowing you to block at all, they force you to used your skills in > footwork, body mechanic, and bantay kamay (hand guard) and more body > techniques to > avoid getting struck by his strike. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 23:57:35 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Inosanto and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The main reason why it is very hard for modern-day Filipinos to define their national identity is that they often fail or refuse to recognize the fact that modern Filipino culture has actually 4 pillar cultures - Malay, Spanish, American and Chinese: Physical Appearance - primarily Malay but with significant traces of Spanish and Chinese features Religion - primarily Spanish (Catholicism) but also with significant Malay (Islam) and American (Protestantism) presence Education - primarily American Legal System - primarily American but with significant Spanish influence Music - primarily American but with significant traces of Spanish and Malay influence Political System - primarily American but with traces of Malay influence ( e.g. despotism)...........=[:->] Language - primarily Malay and American but with significant traces of Spanish and Chinese influence Cuisine - primarily Spanish but with significant traces of Malay and Chinese influence While it is quite easy to take pride on our American, Spanish, and lately, Chinese heritage, it is not quite easy to take pride on our Malay heritage because present-day Malay culture has not reached the same heights as the Malay empires of old - SriVisaya and Madjapahit. The Islamization of the centers of Malay culture - Java and Sumatra and the Christianization of most of the Philippine Islands also created a religious wedge between the majority of Filipinos on one side and the majority of Indonesians and Malaysians on the other side. The effort of prominent Filipinos like Dan Inosanto to reach back to our Malay heritage is, therefore, a truly admirable endeavor - and should not be wrongly construed as an effort to emphasize the ascendance of Malay-named FMA styles over those which have Hispanized or Americanized names ("FMA" itself is an Americanized term). To those Filipinos who want to "reconnect" to their Malay roots, the best advice I can give, based on my own experience, is to visit the surviving cultural monuments of the Malay empires of old near the city of Jogjakarta in Central Java - Borobodur (Buddhist) and Prambanan (Hindu) temples. As I stood on top of Borobodur in 1996, it immediately dawned on me that there is no way that these could have been built almost 1,200 years ago by "ignorant unclothed savages running around with G-strings"..... =[:->] Here is what Wikipedia says on Borobodur and Prambanan: "It is likely Borobudur was founded around *AD 800* This conforms with the period between AD 760–830, the peak of the *Sailendra dynasty* in Central Java, when it was under the influence of the *Srivijayan Empire*. The construction is estimated to have taken 75 years and was completed in 825, during the reign of Srivijayan Maharaja *Samaratunga. *There is confusion between *Hindu *and *Buddhist* rulers in *Java* around that time. The Sailendras are known as ardent followers of Lord Buddha, although stone inscriptions found at *Sojomerto* suggest they were Hindus. It was during this time that many Hindu and Buddhist monuments were built on the plains and mountain around the Kedu Plain. The Buddhist monuments, including Borobudur, were erected around the same time as the Hindu *Shiva* *Prambanan * temple compound. In AD 732, king *Sanjaya*, the founder of the Sailendra dynasty, commissioned a Hindu Shiva *lingga* sanctuary to be built on the Ukir hill, only 10 km (6.2 miles) east of Borobudur. Sanjaya's immediate successor, *Rakai Panangkaran*, was associated with a Buddhist *Kalasan*temple, as shown in the Kalasan Charterdated AD 778. *Anthropologists* believe that religion in Java has never been a serious conflict. It was possible for a Hindu king to patronize the establishment of a Buddhist monument; or for a Buddhist king to act likewise. The official religion could take place without affecting the continuity of a dynasty and of cultural life. > I have always assumed that this was down to 2 reasons: > 1 - he had to call it something, and maybe felt that he liked kali better. > 2 - a desire to promote Filipino culture - by choosing the only > non-Spanish term. > p170 of tFMA reads: > "Most Filipino youths born in the United States were told Filipinos had no > culture, were ignorant-unclothed savages running around with G-strings and > spears, knew no form of government, lacked laws and were uneducated......." > > Clearly, the balance needs to be redressed and the record set straight. > Where better to start than with linguistics? > > Jon --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 17 May 2007 21:15:43 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GM Tobosa (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #152 - 6 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So will you be writing a book about the history of eskrima in the U.S.? Pananandta@aol.com wrote: I exchanged mails with GM Tobosa back in mid to late 1970s. I still have the photographs he sent me and his letters. Great photos and deep insight into the FMA. I kept the photos and the letters because it is part of FMA history in the US. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/17/2007 6:03:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: After GM Tobosa passed away Teofisto (Toby) Tobosa inherited the system. I believe Teofisto passed in 2000, I'm not sure who became the official "inheritor" (if there is one) of the Tobosa system after that. Some of the people you could check with: Sifu Al Dacascos Maestro Mike Delmar Maestra Josephine "Joey" del Mar Maestro Don Mendoza All of whom were direct students of GM Tobosa. Sifu Al sent me some photos of GM Tobosa & Teofisto Tobosa a while back. A couple were the same ones that are in Wiley's book. Another was an old B&W photo of him with GM Raymond and Teofisto Tobosa back in the early 70's. Great photos. Not much to go on but I hope that helps Guro William Schultz Mongrel Combative Arts Philippine Combative Martial Arts New England Pekiti-Tirsia Pitbulls ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest