Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 06:02:03 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #156 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Who's who in FMA history (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #147 - 8 msgs) (james jr. sy) 2. Re: Terms (james jr. sy) 3. Re: GM Presas (james jr. sy) 4. Re: "Play" as used in the Phil (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #147 - 8 msgs) (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Inosanto and Kali (james jr. sy) 6. Re: Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? (james jr. sy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 04:27:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Who's who in FMA history (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #147 - 8 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat and EDers, On a more recent note, here are some more notable martial artists from the provinces (not necessarily FMA): R. Jun Batobalani Shihan (Urdaneta City) - Founder of Dangayan Singkaw Aikido Shinzui Group Philippines. The highest ranking Aikido instructor in the world recognized by Aikikai Hombu (Tokyo, Japan) at 6th dan black belt. Alvin Aguilar (Negros Occidental/Manila) - Premier propagator of Brazilian Jiu-jitsu in the Philippines and founder of the Universal Reality Combat Championship (URCC) champion. The pioneer in promoting Philippine Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) competition. Mark Sangiao (Baguio City) - SEA Games Wushu Sanshou champion and Universal Reality Combat Championship (URCC) champion. Glenn Sumanoy (Dumaguete City) - Universal Reality Combat Championship (URCC) champion. Rene Catalan (Iloilo City) - World Wushu Sanshou champion. Monsour del Rosario (Bacolod City) - 6 times Philippine lightweight Taekwondo champion, once rated in Asia and the world, Philippine cinema action star. John Baylon (Binalbagan) - 7 times SEA Games Judo champion. Ramon S. Franco Shihan (Tacloban City) - Head of Judges Council of the Philippine Karate-do federation (PKF). Manny Pacquiao (General Santos) - World and international Western Boxing champion. ALA Stable (Cebu) - Produces many of the best Western boxers (champions) from the Philippines. Jimrex Jaca (Sibulan) - Philippine super featherweight Western Boxing champion. Former Orient Pacific Boxing Federation (OPBF) super bantamweight champion. Rexon Flores (Cadiz City) - WBO Asia Pacific flyweight champion. Mansueto “Onyok” Velasco (Bago City) - 1996 Atlanta Western Boxing silver medallist. Roel Velasco (Bago City) - Olympics bronze medallist. Mitchell Martinez (Pulupandan) - First Asian women’s Western boxing champion from the Philippines. Joan Tipon (Talisay City) - 23rd SEA Games Western Boxing champion. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: James, Great information. I studied Aikido under Sensei Ambrosio Gavileno and shorin ryu from Sensei Latino Gonzales. I would have mentioned that there must have been a great deal of activity in southern Philippines when I was still in the Philippines. Unfortunately, news from southern Philippines during my time did not get to be printed in national newspapers. Most of the things printed in the news was of the unpleasant kind. Perhaps that was the reason why many FMA practitioners from southern Philippines went to Manila to teach - to get more exposure. We cannot really get a complete list of Filipino martial artists of different discipline unless, we go around the country with pen and paper. This will entail a lot of time and cost. But of course, it can happen, if a univeristy gets a financial grant for somebody to make a dedicated study of the subject. Perhaps, a thesis. In the meantime, we just have to be satisfied with your input, my input, Gatpuno's input, Jay's input and others who had given bits and pieces of very important information on the subject. In the process, we are filling up some very blank pages in FMA history. Thanks. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/14/2007 9:50:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Hi PG Mat and Gat Puno Abon, Up to today Manila is still the center of martial arts growth and development in the Philippines largely due to the fact that it is the capital of the country and it serves as a melting pot of various martial traditions. Brazilian Jiu-jitsu was introduced to the Philippines in 2001 via Manila. At about the same time, Capoeira Grupo Manila (CGM), the first Capoeira group in the Philippines, was already in existence. The national governing bodies for various martial sports recognized by the Philippine Olympic Committee (POC) and the Philippine Sports Commission (PSC) such as the Arnis Philippines (Arpi), Muay Association of the Philippines (MAP), Philippine Amateur Judo Association (PAJA), Philippine Karate-do Federation (PKF), Philippine Pencak Silat Association (Philsilat), Philippine Taekwondo Association (PTA), and Wushu Federation of the Philippines (WFP) are based in the NCR. The major governing bodies for traditional aikido (Aikikai) in the country Aikido Philippines, PAPA, Filipino Federation of aikido – all based in Manila. The Ki Association International of former Philippine Ki no Kenkyukai Chief Instructor Ernesto Talag Sensei and the Tapondo Internatioanl Federation Inc. 9TIFI) of founder/Master Ambrosio “Monching” J. Gavileño are also based in Manila. Nevertheless, many of the pioneers in Philippine martial arts came from the provinces among them: Latino Gonzales Sensei (Jaro, iloilo) - Father of Shorin-ryu Karate in the Philippines. Johnny Carranza Sensei of the Siete Pares Karate Association (Tanjay, Oriental Negros) - Philippine action and karate star. GM Casimiro A. Grandeza Bacolod City)- Father of Karate in Negros. Was teaching Karate in the province as early as the 1960s. Also pioneer of Combat judo and Arnis thru his White Kimono. Became the first Filipino to finish a masters’ course in Korea under the moo Duk Kwan of the late GM Hwang Kee and went on to become the first Filipino grandmaster of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan and the founder/president of the Philippine Moo Duk Kwan Inc.-Korea Tang soo Do Association (PMDKI-KTSDA). Ceferino “Jun” F. Vasquez Sensei (Bacolod City) - Trained intensively in Japan under Nakayama, Masatoshi Sensei, then 9th dan. He brought Sasaki, Kunio Sensei, then 6th dan, to the Philippines as the sole representative of Japan Karate Association (JKA) to the country. Johnny Chuiten (Cebu) - Former president of the Karate Federation of the Philippines (KAFEPHIL), technical consultant of the Chin Wu Athletic Association of the Philippines, and vice president of the Cebu Escrima Association. A prominent figure in Kung Fu, Escrima, and Karate in the early days. Founder of Pronus Supinus. Pancho Villa (Ilog, Negros Occidental) - The first world Wesertn Boxing champion from Asia. Flash Elorde (Cebu) - Great Filipino world Western Boxing champion who also did Balintawak Escrima. Labangon Fencing Club - Pioneer group of escrima in cebu which later evolved into the Doce Pares. Doce Pares - The most established Cebuano FMA organization having been f ounded in 1932 by several Eskrimadores, among them the Saavedras and the Cañetes. GM Remegio “Remy” A. Presas (Hinigaran, negros Occidental) - PE university professor for Judo and Arnis. The first from Negros to write an FMA book. Founder of Presas Style Modern Arnis, the most practiced FMA style in the world. Master Monching Gavileño (Guimaras) - Founde of the first Filipino style of Aikido, Tapondo (a.k.a. Combat Aikido). A Philippine Aikido pioneer. Former member of Aikikai in the Philippines. Founded the Philippine Aikido Sports Association Inc. (PASAI), which was later renamed to the Philippine Combat Aikido Federation (PCAF) in 1992 and then Tapondo International Federation Inc. (TIFI) in 2000 or 2001. Paquit Valencia Sensei (Iloilo City) - One of the first Filipinos to have studied Aikido. Taught Aikido in Guam. Was also an Judo black belt. Passed away with a 4th dan from Aikikai Hombu. Max C. Tian Sensei (Cebu) - Head of Shinshintoitsu Aikido in Cebu. I know I missed out others, particularly in Luzon. I apologize for the shortcoming of the list. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 04:33:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Terms To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Antonio Pigafetta was keen enough to name the weapons of the natives - bows & arrows, kampilan, bsladao, etc. - but it’s interesting to note that there was no mention of Kali. The same was true with other Hispanic records in the Philippines. Chalice is kalis in Ilonggo. It doesn’t have anything to do with FMA. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts (CMAS), Inc. Steven Lefebvre wrote: Hello All, Just got back after a great 2 week vacation to the ongoing threads here and remembered that Tuhon Rafael had posted this way back in 2000, “ We are not sure it is NOT western in origin, it may be based on the Spanish word "caliz..." “ I asked several professors of Spanish history, historical linguists and translators on the origin of the Spanish term "caliz" to mean "sabre" and they never heard of such a thing or they responded thus: "Chaliz o chalis isn't in the two volume dictionary. For sable (sabre) chincharrazo is in the thesaurus list." In addition, one reply even stated that if this term involved the Philippines - it may be ***the other way around!*** Especially for words around the 16th century. The Southern Philippine word "kalis" may have been appropriated BY the Spanish/Portugese to mean a sword. Historically, the Spanish especially the Conquistadores appropriated some words of native tribes and used THEIR terms for that region. "What happens with language is that the conquistadores language has remained the same or changed according to the environment of the native languages. For example, the ote endings on Mexican words is from the Nahuatl and the words are not peninsular Spanish in some cases ejotes for judías verdes (green beans) ot 19th c. "ansí" for "así" now in the 20th c." This is similar to the Americans appropriating the words, "boondocks" and "amok" from the native Filipino root terms. Another reply suggested it may mean "sobre" but they may have misread my inquiry to mean "Chalice". Reflecting on the root term "chalice" as the Greek's interpreted the word from the Aramaic Biblical texts of which the first use of the cup that Jesus drank from. --Rafael-- Sayoc Kali Beyond all this here is a not so new tidbit: If you pick up an english translation of Antonio Pigafetta's Magellan accounts, you will note that in his glossary, Pigafetta calls the native's "fighting style" ... Kampilan. He specifically isolates the terms for "sword" separately from "fighting style" so one could arguably conclude that Pigafetta found the term significant enough to make note of it. Just to mess with the mother art discussion even more... is the mother art named "kampilan" and through the years evolved to mean a type of sword? "Campilanes" is a Spanish interpretation of the native Filipino word, it is not an original word from Spain. More coming! Gumagalang Guro Steve L. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 04:37:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GM Presas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, Mr Jay, GM Roberto "Berting" Presas is very well good Sir. His organization, the Philippine Arnis Hinigaran Association (PAHA), was one of the 10 martial arts organizations who participated in the 1st Himaya-an Festival Martial Arts Expo last April 23, 2007 at the Himamaylan City Gym, Himamaylan City, Negros Occidental (about 1 hour, 45 minutes away from Bacolod City). 5 member organizations of the Intercontinental Federation of Filipino Martial Arts Schools (IFFMAS) were among those who participated. Me and my group, the Conceptual Martial Arts (CMAS), Inc., took an active part in the demonstration of the Original Filipino Tapado Long Stick Fighting Association (OFTLSFA), Inc. under 1st Gen. Inheritor GM Benefredo “Bebing” M. Lobrido and the Kalantiaw Defense Society (KDS) of Grandmaster Dominador “Doming” D. Ferrer. Anyway, GM Presas was assisted by Mr. Dela Cruz and students from at least two schools (kids and teeners). GM Presas invited me for lunch last April 30, 2007 but I didn’t make it. Got work. It was their town’s fiesta and GM Ernesto “Erning” A. Presas was there too with the foreigners who attended his biannual (I think 10th) Kombatan Training Camp in Hinigaran. The Presas brothers are known FMA figures in Hinigaran. When I started going to the town because of work related assignments, I asked around for FMA. I’m planning a book that will document FMA and MA in Negros. Every time, you hear the Presas name :p. Of course, this is not to say that there are no other Arnisadors in Hinigaran, only that the Presas brothers are the most popular and well known. GM Roberto, in previous conversations, never fails to acknowledge his brother GM Remy Presas every time we talk of Modern Arnis. He said, GM Ernesto uses the name Kombatan, but it’s still Presas Style. I might be able to drop by Hinigaran this week or the following week. Would you like to send a message to GM Roberto? James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 04:39:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "Play" as used in the Phil (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #147 - 8 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Agree to that PG Mat, I did Aikido under 5 instructors, 2 of whom were from Luzon. We also use the term “laro” to refer to the practice of Aikido as would acquaintances at Aikido Philippines. In Yasay Sable and other Negrense FMAs, we say “hampangon” (root word hampang “play” + on “to”) when we want to spar. However, I would disagree to the link made by bgdebuque between: Arnis as "laro" as per Florante at Laura and Kol-Kali, Thacholi-Kali and ParichamuttuKali as “play” as per Aby Paul Not because both represent “play” bgdebuque can immediately associate two different martial arts from two different countries and cultures. Besides, this is not how academic proof is presented, don’t you think PG? Anyhow, mahjong for 5 hours, wow! That’s long. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts (CMAS), Inc. Pananandta@aol.com wrote: James, Speaking of play, I played mahjong last night and won 50 cents after 5 hours. Seriously, to "laro" is usually interchangeable with the word "to pratice". It is some kind of generic term. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/14/2007 9:50:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Eskrima (swordplay/fencing), Chinese mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino piko are all “plays” too but they have nothing to do with Kali. From an academic point of view, such reasoning is erroneous and invalid. As PG Mat said, you don’t take words literally. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 04:42:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Inosanto and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Pat, I have the highest respect for GM Inosanto and I admire the same respect you are giving him. Please allow me to rephrase my statement. GM Inosanto respects his teachers by using the terms his teachers used. That is undisputed. Can we say the same for GM Villabrille who learned Escrima from his uncle GM Tatang Ilustrisimo and later used the term Kali? (Please note that the tale of the Blind Kali Princess in Samar had already been disproven by actual on-site investigation by Dr. Ned Nepangue and his associates and well as as by certain members of the Ilustrisimo family. For further details, please see Cebuano Escrima: Beyond the Myth). It is not my intention for you change the use of Kali to Escrima. It’s your personal choice. And I respect whatever choice you make. I’m just sharing facts. We are still brothers in the arts. James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts (CMAS), Inc. iPat wrote: On 5/14/07, james jr. sy wrote: > GM Villabrille learned FMA from his uncle GM Tatang Ilustrisimo. Tatang used the term Escrima. GM Villabrille used Kali. > Hi James, im aware of your point, you'd already noted it as i copy below: You said: May 5 In page 15 of "The Filipino Martial Arts" by Master Daniel "Dan" Inosanto, under the ....... Well, that is just basing on GM Inosanto's book. Beyond that, you would have more knowledge on GM LaCoste's and GM Inosantos's relationship and the old man's actual usage of term. One of the things you learn about Guro inosanto when you spend time around him, is his honest endeavour to never disrespect anyone. Last year, in his seminar in Germany, he listed the arts that contributed to the Inosanto blend knife system. Without checking my notes, lets just say he mentioned 12. he then went on to discuss which ones were more beneficial than others but ended up ticking them all! A wry smile will come on the face of any Inosanto student who will recognise this! With every Instructors course i am on, as well as classes, I am exposed to the history element of the FMA. I understand he got this History element from his father. The academy is called the Inosanto Academy not for him but in respect for his familly who helped him set up his school. he puts LaCoste's name before his own when you look at the tee shirts etc. I could go on, but i dont think you are questioning his honesty. What i do know that he is admament on the subject of the terminology, respectfull always to his elders. i have already mentoned the incident when he asked his mother the meaning of a term that Lacoste used which confused many different dialect speakers till his mother used his fathers dialect - imagine that - LaCoste using his fathers dialect to teach the young Inosanto out of respect for his father. Whether this leads the assumption that LaCoste used the term to Inosanto is theoretical but what we do know is that the term is used out of the deepest respect and eminated from those who came from their homeland, returning there to serve during the 2nd world war. These were proud (P!)filipinos who zealously passed on the traditions and history to their youth. I'm not Filipino. I respect the art and i respect my teachers instruction. I have seen his endeavours to study. Terms like this are not commercially intended, they come from a belief that one should respect the elders. I respect your endeavour to find the paper trail and i look forward to hearing of your research, but i trust with good reason the teachings of my lineage. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 04:58:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If we follow the logic you’re using, that of of linking two or more things from two different cultures just because they contain the same words, then nobody can stop a person from claiming that Kali was originated in Atlantis! Raised eyebrows? Proof: There is a fish genus in the family Chiasmodontidae called KALI and there’s a river in India called KALI. Further proof: KALIskis - Ilonggo for fish scales. Does these words support the theory? Of course no. But it is so easy to connect two or more things from different backgrounds just based on word similarities. Another example? Anybody could just say Kali started in Croatia, Estonia, and Greece because there are places called KALI there. Another would say, “don’t you see, KALI was started in Kalifornia because you have the largest concentration of Filipinos there.” And a kid comes along, “no, you are all wrong. My mom holds the secret to KALI. My mom’s art is the MOTHER art. Then a Bisaya comes along, “KALIbang ra gud ko, saba diha! (I’m having diarrhea, shut up!). How about I’ll Kali (dig) and bury all of you?” :p Bgdebuque, do you see what I mean? It’s so easy to give an explanation but the question is, will the explanation stand an investigative bombardment. I wonder how you would dispute the following, as you’ve discussed them in your last post: Arnes is Spanish, not Tagalog. There is no Kali (the FMA) in Kerala, only Kalaripayattu. Your use of play only started when Aby Paul pointed out to you that the “Kali” in the martial arts-inspired dances you mentioned means “play.” Chinese mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino piko are indeed not martial arts, but “play” as people would know them. Now that is just like saying that IMA and FMA are connected just because they were called “play.” If you agree with both PG Mat’s research on kalisin (which you expressed in a previous post) and Aby Paul’s “play” definition,” where do you really stand? After choosing from one of the above, the next question then is, do you agree with the kamot lihok definition of GM Villabrille/Inosanto? If so how do you fit that to the kalisin and play point of views? Presuming you get to connect all 3, what is your take on the claim that Kali is Muslim? By your mere association of Kali to Kalaripayattu, you have implied that Kali is Hindu. If you dismiss the Muslim angle, then you have just eliminated the Kali and Silat connection, which would prove many claimants to be wrong. Quote: “…there has been too much emphasis on what is written or recorded in evaluating the historical basis of "kali" and the influence of Indian martial arts in the FMA.” How do you prove the historical authenticity of something if you will exclude written records (documents), anecdotal data from RELIABLE sources (oral), and archaeological finds (physical proof)? Definitely not by conjecture/speculation alone or relying on the internet for proof. By far, you have not given any documentary, RELIABLE anecdotal, and physical proof for the HISTORICAL AUTHENTICITY of the term Kali. Your argument on the influence of IMA on Kali on a strictly academic level doesn’t merit consideration due to the following reasons: 1. It’s based on conjecture (look at the words you’re using, full of doubt). 2. You base your references on the internet which are not academically acceptable, unless otherwise they will merely serve as “back up” to historical records written by authorities in the anthropological, historical, archaeological, and related fields. Remember, Wikipedia is an online encyclopedia that can be edited by ANYBODY, including you. Although it requires references, in by itself is not enough to ascertain that the sources given are reliable and/or authentic. One simple question: What does Kali mean? Why so many unclear, vague, speculative, and confusing explanations? A simple question deserves a simple answer. Not a truckload of chopsuey conjecture passed off as history. What is Arnes/Arnis? Harness of the hand. What is Escrima? Fencing. End of story. Quote: “Is it just mere coincidence then that masters in Kalaripayattu are known as "Gurukkal" while those in the FMA, Indonesian MA and Malaysian MA are addressed as "Guru"? Again, conjecture based on amateur attempts as a linguist. Guru (Sankrit) - An address to someone with wisdom/enlightenment. Related to Indian religion. Guro (Tagalog) - Teacher. An academic teacher need not be enlightened. So what if Sarong is also found in India? It doesn’t prove that Kali the FMA or the mother art of all FMA is Indian. But if you do insist, why not remain Kali as Indian, rather than Filipino, Martial Art? Quote: "Historically, after the completion of 'Ankathari' training (literally, "war training"), the student would specialize in a weapon of his choice, to become an expert swordsman or stick fighter." Hhhhmmm... Could these be the hint to the answer to the question on whether pre-Hispanic FMA is primarily blade-based or stick-based?” Another conjecture. Various cultures developed various ways of using weapons, including sticks and blades, independently. Egyptians did have stickfighting but you can’t say it is the same stickfighting the ancient Filipinos did. Your “guess” on the attire of pre-Hispanic FMA stick-fighter (isn’t Kali blade?) is another speculation. You are avoiding my point. Florante at Laura by Francisco Balagtas - 1831 - First record of Arnis. Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis by Placido Yambao - 1957 - First Record of Kali. How do you refute this fact in defense that Kali is the original term for FMA? Simple question, simple answer. Seems to appear, maybe, seem, implies, I guess…are all words that denote doubt and appear in your posts. We don’t need more conjecture to add to the mess. In jurisprudence, those who claim own the burden of proof. When you claim something that is contrary to the common knowledge of the Filipino people as a nation, such as the claim that Kali is the original and purer term and the mother art of all FMA, it is just like you put shit on the head of the millions who inhabit the Philippines. It is a slap to the face of all Filipinos. You might as well call Kali an Indian Martial Art if you keep insisting it is Indian. Yes, Kali is now accepted as a term for FMA. There is nothing wrong in using it. But claiming it as what it is not is what’s not acceptable. I apologize in advance for the strong words I used but I am not only speaking for myself but for all the Filipinos who feel the same. The Filipino people are peace loving but insulting their intellect by rewriting history is another story. bgdebuque wrote: The Kerala "Kali", the Tagalog "Arnes", and the Spanish "Esgrima" are all words which pertain to martial art-related "plays". Unfortunately, I cannot say the same for Chinese Mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino Piko... =[:->] It also seems that there has been too much emphasis on what is written or recorded in evaluating the historical basis of "kali" and the influence of Indian martial arts in the FMA. So I went "knocking" at Wikipedia to determine what consitutes acceptable historical evidence and, here is what I found: "Traditionally, historians have attempted to answer historical questions through the study of written documents, although historical research is not limited merely to these sources. In general, the sources of historical knowledge can be separated into three categories: what is written, what is said, and what is physically preserved, and historians often consult all three.... However, the rise of academic professionalism and the creation of new scientific fields in the 19th and 20th centuries brought a flood of new information that challenged this notion. Archaeology, anthropology and other social sciences provided new information and theories about human history..... Sources that can give light on the past, such as oral tradition, linguistics, and genetics, have become accepted by many mainstream historians." Accordingly, mere superficial comparison of Kalaripayattu with the FMA will generate the following similarities: *Language of Practitioners* Wikipedia says: "*Malayalam* is the language spoken predominantly in the state of Kerala, in southern India. It is one of the 23 official languages of India, spoken by around 37 million people. A native speaker of Malayalam is called a 'Malayali'. The language is closely related to Tamil. However, Malayalam has a script of its own, covering all alphabets of Sanskrit as well as special Dravidian letters." "Languages that have made significant contributions to *Tagalog* are Spanish, Min Nan Chinese, English, Malay, Sanskrit (via Malay), Arabic (via Malay/Spanish), and Northern Philippine languages such as Kapampangan spoken on the island of Luzon.... There are no surviving written samples of Tagalog before the arrival of the Spanish in the 16th century. Some say that all the written texts were burned by the first Spanish priest, claiming that they were demonic. Very little is known about the history of the language. However there is speculation among linguists that the ancestors of the Tagalogs originated, along with their Central Philippine cousins, from northeastern Mindanao or eastern Visayas." ** *"Tausug* is a Visayan language spoken in Sulu province in the Philippines. It is also spoken in Malaysia and Indonesia." Is it just mere coincidence then that masters in Kalaripayattu are known as "Gurukkal" while those in the FMA, Indonesian MA and Malaysian MA are addressed as "Guru"? *Attire of Practitioners* Wikipedia says: "*Sarongs* are widespread in the South Indian state of Kerala, where they are called mundu, as well as in Tamil Nadu, where they are called Sarem, and are usually worn at home. Unlike the brightly coloured Southeast Asian sarongs, the Keralan variety is more often plain white and is worn for ceremonial or religious purposes." "Malay men wear *sarongs* in public only when attending Friday prayers at the mosque, but sarongs remain very common casual wear at home for men and women of all races and religions in Brunei, Indonesia, and Malaysia.... In the Philippines it is also known as a *malong*." *Stick Orientation * Wikipedia on Kalaripayattu: "Historically, after the completion of 'Ankathari' training (literally, "war training"), the student would specialize in a weapon of his choice, to become an expert swordsman or stick fighter." Hhhhmmm... Could these be the hint to the answer to the question on whether pre-Hispanic FMA is primarily blade-based or stick-based? Given the foregoing considerations, what would a pre-Hispanic FMA stick-fighter look like? I guess he would be a short, brown-skinned man, clad in a sarong with a rattan cane stick on his hand addressing his teacher as "Guru". Fast forward him 500 years to today.... and try to comb the entire world for the non-FMA martial arts school whose practitioners would resemble him the closest.... Indonesian and Malaysian Silat would have been possible choices... as long as you ignore the fact that they don't really like to "play" with sticks that much...=[:->] > -- __--__-- > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 03:19:32 -0700 (PDT) > From: "james jr. sy" > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Eskrima (swordplay/fencing), Chinese mahjong, sepak takraw, and Filipino > piko are all "plays" too but they have nothing to do with Kali. From an > academic point of view, such reasoning is erroneous and invalid. As PG Mat > said, you don't take words literally. > > The point in comparing Florante at Laura and Yambao's book is the date i.e. > 1831 and 1957 respectively. How do you refute that without resorting to > conjecture on "play?" Kali is supposed to be the original term but why is > it we have Arnis recorded first? > > And how can Arnis be Kali when Kali is claimed to be the original, purer, > and the mother art? > > Since you said that "it seems to appear to me that "Arnis" is maybe the > Hispanized version of "Kali," and that you believe that Kali came from the > Indian martial art of Kalaripayattu, what particular Hindu influences can > you point out in Arnis? > > PG Mat posted his definition of kalisin "to level off" which doesn't > connect to your "play." > > Seems to appear, maybe, seem, implies…are all words that denote doubt. > > > bgdebuque wrote: Since based on the previous posts > below, the meaning of the Indian word > "Kali" is "play" and Francisco Balagtas in "Florante at Laura" also refers > to Arnis as "laro", which literally also means "play", it seems to appear > to me that "Arnis" is maybe the Hispanized version of "Kali". > > Even the timing of the first recorded appearance of the word "Arnes" > [1831] > seem to support this. If I remember it right, it was also in the 19th > century when the drive to Hispanize all Filipino names started - which > implies that there would also have been similar pressure to Hispanize > other > politically-sensitive native terms, like the one pertaining to the native > fighting arts. > > > > > Message: 5 > > Date: Mon, 7 May 2007 06:33:30 -0700 (PDT) > > From: aby paul > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Indian connection > > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > > Hello, > > > > The 'Kali' which you mentioned in 'Kol-Kali','Thacholi-Kali' means ' > > play'. Kolkali-Stick Play. > > ParichamuttuKali-Sword and Shield play. These all arts are derived for > > kalaripayattu. > > > > The way we say Hindu Godess kali is' Kaali'. > > > > Just my few cents > > Paul _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest