Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 11:41:04 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #158 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Inosanto and Kali (james jr. sy) 2. Re: Book on FMA history in the Phil (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #153 - 9 msgs) (Felipe Jocano) 3. Re: Kali - Indonesian Term (james jr. sy) 4. Re: German FMA festival & Sonny Umpad (Arndt Mallepree) 5. Re: Kali - Indonesian Term (Arndt Mallepree) 6. Throwing Axe (Ollie Batts) 7. Eskrima digest, (Toma Rosenzweig) 8. Re: Inosanto and Kali (iPat) 9. Re: Sunny Umpad FMA Festival (hanosh@inayaneskrima.com) 10. FMA History (Jorge Penafiel) 11. Re: GM Presas (jay de leon) 12. Re: Making your own training knives (Kes41355@aol.com) 13. Re: Another does of KALI (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 05:22:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Inosanto and Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Philippines indeed just have too many problems. What’s worse there are those who claim that FMA is dead in the Philippines. Does that mean that what all the Filipino FMAers are doing including the WEKAF, Doce Pares, Balintawak, Bakbakan, Arnis Philippines, PIGSAI, IMAFP, IPMAF, IFFMAS, Original Filipino Tapado, Pekiti Tirsia, Garimot Arnis, Dumog, Bultong, Yaw Yan, Sikaran, Silat, Kuntao/Kuntaw, etc. is dead? Funny world. JAMES jay de leon wrote: Is that the same king Sanjaya who was resurrected and ruled over American Idol for a brief time? Seriously, how do the temples of Borobodur compare with the temples of Angkor Wat in Cambodia? National identity for the Philippines is a complex issue that is at the root of many deep-seated problems, including graft and corruption, lack of economic progress, etc. Some writers even claim that the Philippines at this time has not even reached the status of a "nation." But this discussion is for another forum. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com bgdebuque wrote: The main reason why it is very hard for modern-day Filipinos to define their national identity is that they often fail or refuse to recognize the fact that modern Filipino culture has actually 4 pillar cultures - Malay, Spanish, American and Chinese: Physical Appearance - primarily Malay but with significant traces of Spanish and Chinese features Religion - primarily Spanish (Catholicism) but also with significant Malay (Islam) and American (Protestantism) presence Education - primarily American Legal System - primarily American but with significant Spanish influence Music - primarily American but with significant traces of Spanish and Malay influence Political System - primarily American but with traces of Malay influence ( e.g. despotism)...........=[:->] Language - primarily Malay and American but with significant traces of Spanish and Chinese influence Cuisine - primarily Spanish but with significant traces of Malay and Chinese influence While it is quite easy to take pride on our American, Spanish, and lately, Chinese heritage, it is not quite easy to take pride on our Malay heritage because present-day Malay culture has not reached the same heights as the Malay empires of old - SriVisaya and Madjapahit. The Islamization of the centers of Malay culture - Java and Sumatra and the Christianization of most of the Philippine Islands also created a religious wedge between the majority of Filipinos on one side and the majority of Indonesians and Malaysians on the other side. The effort of prominent Filipinos like Dan Inosanto to reach back to our Malay heritage is, therefore, a truly admirable endeavor - and should not be wrongly construed as an effort to emphasize the ascendance of Malay-named FMA styles over those which have Hispanized or Americanized names ("FMA" itself is an Americanized term). To those Filipinos who want to "reconnect" to their Malay roots, the best advice I can give, based on my own experience, is to visit the surviving cultural monuments of the Malay empires of old near the city of Jogjakarta in Central Java - Borobodur (Buddhist) and Prambanan (Hindu) temples. As I stood on top of Borobodur in 1996, it immediately dawned on me that there is no way that these could have been built almost 1,200 years ago by "ignorant unclothed savages running around with G-strings"..... =[:->] Here is what Wikipedia says on Borobodur and Prambanan: "It is likely Borobudur was founded around *AD 800* This conforms with the period between AD 760–830, the peak of the *Sailendra dynasty* in Central Java, when it was under the influence of the *Srivijayan Empire*. The construction is estimated to have taken 75 years and was completed in 825, during the reign of Srivijayan Maharaja *Samaratunga. *There is confusion between *Hindu *and *Buddhist* rulers in *Java* around that time. The Sailendras are known as ardent followers of Lord Buddha, although stone inscriptions found at *Sojomerto* suggest they were Hindus. It was during this time that many Hindu and Buddhist monuments were built on the plains and mountain around the Kedu Plain. The Buddhist monuments, including Borobudur, were erected around the same time as the Hindu *Shiva* *Prambanan * temple compound. In AD 732, king *Sanjaya*, the founder of the Sailendra dynasty, commissioned a Hindu Shiva *lingga* sanctuary to be built on the Ukir hill, only 10 km (6.2 miles) east of Borobudur. Sanjaya's immediate successor, *Rakai Panangkaran*, was associated with a Buddhist *Kalasan*temple, as shown in the Kalasan Charter>dated AD 778. *Anthropologists* believe that religion in Java has never been a serious conflict. It was possible for a Hindu king to patronize the establishment of a Buddhist monument; or for a Buddhist king to act likewise. The official religion could take place without affecting the continuity of a dynasty and of cultural life. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 05:25:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Book on FMA history in the Phil (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #153 - 9 msgs) To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi PG Mat, Definitely, Ray deserves acknowledgement for all that he's done for us. Where else would I have met you, James, Manong Jay, Manong Jorge, etc., even if electronically? Here's to the day I get to meet you all in person :-) Bot --- Pananandta@aol.com wrote: > Bot, > > When you write the acknowledgment of the book, I am > sure you will not forget > Ray Terry. > > Thanks Ray. > > APMarinas Sr. > > > > ************************************** See what's > free at http://www.aol.com. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > ____________________________________________________________________________________Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 05:35:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sure, Kali means everything. Better go check Europe, there's also Kali there or maybe the Arctic. :) The more you add to the Kali confusion, the easier it is to prove that it is not what it is claimed to be. Good luck on the witchhunt bgdebuque wrote: In terms of day-to-day use, Indonesians use "kali" to refer to a big manmade ditch. A smaller manmade ditch will normally be referred to as a "parit". The preferred term for a river is "sungai". There is another meaning for "kali" which might be more appropriate for the martial arts - number of repetitions. Thus "sekali" would be "1 repetition" or "once". "Dua kali" would be "2 repetitions" or "2 times". "Tiga kali" would be "3 repetitions" or "3 times". "Beberapa kali" would be "many times". "Berkali-kali" would be "continuously". Still, there is another meaning for "kali". In Indonesian math lingo, "kali" means "times" or "multiplied by". Thus, "satu kali dua" would mean "one times two" or "one multiplied by two" or simply "1 x 2". -- __--__-- <"An English - Indonesian Dictionary" by John M. Echols and Hassan Shadily --- Based upon natural law --- Formless and shapeless so it can assume any form or shape to serve its purpose --- Seeks the path of least resistance --- Supports, nutures and protectslife --- Can take a life --- Moves in straight or curved lines in accordance withwhat is needed to continue to flow --- The curved Kris swordshape reflects the characteristics of a river and this sword seemsto bea favorite symbol in both Kali and Eskrima arts. --- All rivers are feed into by multiple streams (meaning many influances contribute to its whole) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- Finding fabulous fares is fun. Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Arndt Mallepree" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] German FMA festival & Sonny Umpad Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 17:09:02 +0200 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There are DVD available from Abanico.de ! Its the production of Datu Dieter Knüttel! See on his homepage whom is featured. Stay save Arndt Mallepree "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own!" Bruce Lee www.ifcm.de ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Broster" To: "Eskrima Digest" Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2007 11:44 PM Subject: [Eskrima] German FMA festival & Sonny Umpad > Hi, > > I was just watching tjhe Dog Brothers' new "Grandfathers Speak 2 - Sonny > Umpad" (well worth checking out by the way). > > In it there is a little footage of Sonny teaching at the FMA festival in > Germany a few years ago. > > Does anyone know if there is any video or DVD of the event available, and > if so who is featured? Is Sonny on it? And where is it available from? > > Many thanks. > > Jon > > > "There's nothing more dangerous than a blunt knife" > > http://www.pecahan.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Arndt Mallepree" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 17:15:33 +0200 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net According to my Guro Dan Inosanto the word Kali is a combination of the words Kamot Lihot - move of the hand. (Please excuse if wrong spelled!) That is what he personally told me! In my personal oppinion the art is not described by a name or simple word. More by movement and action. But every individual has his own look on things and that should be respected. Stay save and train save Arndt Mallepree "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is specifically your own!" Bruce Lee www.ifcm.de ----- Original Message ----- From: "james jr. sy" To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali - Indonesian Term > Sure, Kali means everything. Better go check Europe, there's also Kali > there or maybe the Arctic. :) > > The more you add to the Kali confusion, the easier it is to prove that it > is not what it is claimed to be. > > Good luck on the witchhunt > > > bgdebuque wrote: > In terms of day-to-day use, Indonesians use "kali" to refer to a big > manmade > ditch. A smaller manmade ditch will normally be referred to as a "parit". > The preferred term for a river is "sungai". > > There is another meaning for "kali" which might be more appropriate for > the > martial arts - number of repetitions. > > Thus "sekali" would be "1 repetition" or "once". "Dua kali" would be "2 > repetitions" or "2 times". "Tiga kali" would be "3 repetitions" or "3 > times". > > "Beberapa kali" would be "many times". "Berkali-kali" would be > "continuously". > > Still, there is another meaning for "kali". In Indonesian math lingo, > "kali" means "times" or "multiplied by". Thus, "satu kali dua" > would mean "one times two" or "one multiplied by two" or simply "1 x 2". > > > -- __--__-- > > > > > <"An English - Indonesian Dictionary" by John M. Echols and Hassan Shadily > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- Based upon natural law > > --- Formless and shapeless so it can assume any form or shape to serve > its purpose > > --- Seeks the path of least resistance > > --- Supports, nutures and protectslife > > --- Can take a life > > --- Moves in straight or curved lines in accordance withwhat is needed > to continue to flow > > --- The curved Kris swordshape reflects the characteristics of a river > and this sword seemsto bea favorite symbol in both Kali and > Eskrima arts. > > --- All rivers are feed into by multiple streams (meaning many influances > contribute to its whole) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > > > --------------------------------- > Finding fabulous fares is fun. > Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and > hotel bargains. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 16:22:34 +0100 From: Ollie Batts To: Subject: [Eskrima] Throwing Axe Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net These people make damn fine axes, including a throwing axe: http://www.gransfors.com/htm_eng/index.html Pugil "There was no good one-headed metallic ax in the market when I was writing my 2nd manuscript on knife throwing. Hence, I decided to design my throwing ax. Trouble was I did not know how to make one. So I asked one of my friends to make one for me. He did - after 8 months. That did it. I decided to make the "dang things". I couldn't wait another 8 months for one of my designs to get fabricated. - APMarinas Sr." --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Toma Rosenzweig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 08:43:44 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima digest, Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Brandon has sent me some awesome photos and good! prices on his wooden weapons they are GREAT!! I can't wait to get some of his work which appears to very well done if you get a chance please check them out !!! From: Toma the Old One Main e-Mail: tomawallaikido@earthlink.net Great Aikido, and now Modern Arnis ask for info on these classes Knife Disarms, Aikido, Arnis, Pocket Stick Seminars in So CA anytime, most anywhere > Due to my inability to find what I considered to be suitable (read durable > AND artistic) practice knives I have launched a cottage industry of making the > dang things. If anyone is interested or just wants to send me hate mail for > putting the word out here my e-mail is cutsandbruises_99@yahoo.com . I'm > currently struggling to get my caveman brain to grasp the concept of a web page, > so bear with me. I'll send pics and info ito any that are interested. > Thanks all > Brandon --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 16:55:49 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Inosanto and Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi James, my comments are in the same vein as yours, its an excellent discussion with many new thoughts being brought to the table. On 5/20/07, james jr. sy wrote: > Hi Pat,........> It is not my intention for you change the use of Kali to Escrima. It's your personal choice. And I respect whatever choice you make. I'm just sharing facts. We are still brothers in the arts. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 12:33:18 -0400 (EDT) From: hanosh@inayaneskrima.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sunny Umpad FMA Festival Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Both the Seminar and Gala DVD's are currently available from Amazon.com if you are so inclined to order from there. All participants from the FMA Festival are included. You can also purchase online at www.abanico.de. Best Regards, Cory Hanosh Inayan Masirib Guro Inayan Systems International www.inayaneskrima.com Message: 2 From: "Bill Lowery" To: Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:15:43 +0100 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Sunny Umpad FMA Festival Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Jon, 2nd FMA-Festival "The Seminar" Abanico DVD ISBN 3-89540-808-5. I got both that and "The Gala" DVD from Dieter a couple of years ago, so I'd wait for him to come onto the digest to get the correct prices. Bill --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Jorge Penafiel" To: Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 13:34:49 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] FMA History Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Felipe Jocano wrote: > Hi PG Mat; > > I had thought about it, but I feel it should be a > group endeavor. I certainly need help from a lot of > people! Your knowledge and experience will help a > great deal. Manong Jay? Manong Jorge? Alex Ercia? > James Sy? Sali kayo!!! Other guys here? This is our > history! ========= Hiyaahh Bot,,,sali sa rambolan but don't what I could contribute though!! Physical Education was my favorite subject in school, kamote sa history - too many names, dates, and events to put to my brain memory file then even up to this day. Overloaded and low battery for whatever brain cells I still have functioning,,,,hehehe. Really though, there is one more person "Mert Altares" worthy for sure that can contribute much on this endeavor. A good friend, works with the Deans Office of King Fahd U. of Petroleum in Dharan, SA. He is from Antique but now resides in Taralc city, an avid historrian, writer, and also an MA officionado. He boggles my kahonas with his history knowledge of FMA. Same goes with ED brothers (Ray, Jay, A. Ercia, Abon Baet, James Sy, AP Marinas Sr., etc. who are puts time and effort to say/write interesting and new FMA knowledge by far to me. Many thanks!! Mert will be glad to lend a hand with my insistence and twist of his arm ( torsi in Ilongo). Regards to UP Dileman and friends there. Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 10:11:01 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] GM Presas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James: First, thanks for the info and update, Glad to hear that GM Berting is well and still active in arnis. At the end of the 3rd FMA Festival in Manila last year, some participants flew to Hinigaran to pay their respects to the Presases, both living and dead. I am not sure if they were able to contact GM Berting, but I was not able to make the trip due to a previous commitment. Yes, please send a message. He and I belong to a common organization, the International Modern Arnis Federation of the Phil (IMAFP) but he would not know me from Adam. Just say a Modern Arnis guro in the U,S, who knew and loved Remy sends his regards and respect, and to let him know that he (GM Roberto) is admired, loved and respected by many arnisadors here in the United States. As a final favor, I do not even have a current picture of GM Berting. If you can take one and email me that picture or pictures, I will publish it in my websites and be forever grateful to you. Maraming salamat po. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com "james jr. sy" wrote: Hello, Mr Jay, GM Roberto "Berting" Presas is very well good Sir. His organization, the Philippine Arnis Hinigaran Association (PAHA), was one of the 10 martial arts organizations who participated in the 1st Himaya-an Festival Martial Arts Expo last April 23, 2007 at the Himamaylan City Gym, Himamaylan City, Negros Occidental (about 1 hour, 45 minutes away from Bacolod City). 5 member organizations of the Intercontinental Federation of Filipino Martial Arts Schools (IFFMAS) were among those who participated. Me and my group, the Conceptual Martial Arts (CMAS), Inc., took an active part in the demonstration of the Original Filipino Tapado Long Stick Fighting Association (OFTLSFA), Inc. under 1st Gen. Inheritor GM Benefredo “Bebing” M. Lobrido and the Kalantiaw Defense Society (KDS) of Grandmaster Dominador “Doming” D. Ferrer. Anyway, GM Presas was assisted by Mr. Dela Cruz and students from at least two schools (kids and teeners). GM Presas invited me for lunch last April 30, 2007 but I didn’t make it. Got work. It was their town’s fiesta and GM Ernesto “Erning” A. Presas was there too with the foreigners who attended his biannual (I think 10th) Kombatan Training Camp in Hinigaran. The Presas brothers are known FMA figures in Hinigaran. When I started going to the town because of work related assignments, I asked around for FMA. I’m planning a book that will document FMA and MA in Negros. Every time, you hear the Presas name :p. Of course, this is not to say that there are no other Arnisadors in Hinigaran, only that the Presas brothers are the most popular and well known. GM Roberto, in previous conversations, never fails to acknowledge his brother GM Remy Presas every time we talk of Modern Arnis. He said, GM Ernesto uses the name Kombatan, but it’s still Presas Style. I might be able to drop by Hinigaran this week or the following week. Would you like to send a message to GM Roberto? James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts (CMAS), Inc. --------------------------------- Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 14:53:04 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Making your own training knives Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, Speaking of hand making training knives, I have a student who is a very good woodworker, and makes exceptional, finely crafted wooden training weapons. He makes his stuff out of hickory and a South American wood called Purple Heart, which is incredibly durable (we haven't been able to dent it yet, let alone break one) while remaining pleasantly lightweight, and is a beautifully grained wood as well. I have a Serrada baston and a couple of training daggers, and I absolutely love them and recommend them to anyone who is looking for a tough hardwood weapon that you can actually practice with. In the very near future, Brandon is going to try reproducing the weapons in aluminum as well as the hickory and Purple Heart weapons he is currently working with. If anyone is interested, write to me for pictures and a price list. Kim Satterfield Midwest School of Eskrima ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Sun, 20 May 2007 15:32:22 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Another does of KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If that Anybody can also show that, sometime in their history, Croatians, Estonians and Greeks were short brown-skinned men, spoke a Sanskrit-based language, wore Sarongs, have a stick-based martial art style, and were believers in Buddhism and/or Hinduism, then I will have no choice but to agree with that Anybody.... =[:->] > > Another example? Anybody could just say Kali started in Croatia, Estonia, > and Greece because there are places called KALI there. Why not Cali, Colombia? California just buys from them... =[:->] Another would say, "don't you see, KALI was started in Kalifornia because > you have the largest concentration of Filipinos there." "Arnes" is already Tagalog. "Harnes" is I think is the original Spanish word. In the same way that the Ilonggo word "Yudipuga" is no longer Spanish... =[:->] wonder how you would dispute the following, as you've discussed them in your > last post: > > Arnes is Spanish, not Tagalog. I have never said that there was. The whole premise of my argument is that if Shaolin Kung Fu probably came from Kalaripayattu according to Discovery Channel, it is highly probable that the FMA could have come from the same source because there exists cultural threads which links present-day Filipino culture with the culture of present-day residents of Kerala in India. Of course, subliminally, I was trying to insinuate that the roots of the FMA is just as old as Shaolin Kung Fu.... =[:->] There is no Kali (the FMA) in Kerala, only Kalaripayattu. I accepted Aby Paul's explanation because it made sense in the context of the cultural threads I am trying to point out. BTW "Kali" in Indonesian also means "repetition". If the term "laro" in Florante at Laura pertains to "practice", the basis of any form of "practice" is the "repetition" of movements. Your use of play only started when Aby Paul pointed out to you that the > "Kali" in the martial arts-inspired dances you mentioned means "play." We cannot eliminate the Malay MA Silat Connection. As I have indicated in my previous post, the Southeast Asian progression of Indian-based MA could have been Indian MA - Malay MA - Filipino MA. If we accept Kerala as the origin of the Indian MA then, originally, it is either Hindu and/or Buddhist. When it arrived in Indonesia, it is still Hindu and/or Buddhist. It became Muslim in Indonesia and Malaysia when its practitioners there converted to Islam. It became Christian in Central and Northern Philippines when its practitioners there converted to Christianity. It is still Hindu in Bali until now. >Presuming you get to connect all 3, what is your take on the claim that Kali is Muslim? By >your mere association of Kali to Kalaripayattu, you have implied that Kali is Hindu. >If you dismiss the Muslim angle, then you have just eliminated the Kali and Silat connection, >which would prove many claimants to be wrong. In Indonesian, "Kali" means "repetition". Let's say you want somebody to execute Strike "No. 3! 3 Times!". You would say that in Indonesian as "Nomor Tiga! Tiga KALI!" In any form of martial arts practice conducted in the Indonesian language, therefore, you will always hear the word "KALI" continuously. Or, just incase you can speak Indonesian: "Pasti Mas kamu akan mendengar kata "KALI" berKALI-KALI!" I hope that answers your questions.... =[:->] >One simple question: What does Kali mean? >Why so many unclear, vague, speculative, and confusing explanations? >A simple question deserves a simple answer. Not a truckload of chopsuey conjecture passed off >as history. >What is Arnes/Arnis? Harness of the hand. >What is Escrima? Fencing. End of story. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest