Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 02:58:41 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #162 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. The Filipino Identity (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #158 - 14 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 2. The New www.WEKAFUSA.org - UNIFYING FMA (Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness) 3. Eskrima or Kali (Rocky) 4. Re: Eskrima or Kali (Ray) 5. Kali the mystery term (Mark Harrell) 6. Re: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? (nephalim1@aim.com) 7. Re: Kali the mystery term (Daniel Arola) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 02:24:34 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The Filipino Identity (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #158 - 14 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I do not think Filipinos have a problem with their national identity. For example: I have Spanish, Chinese, and Malayan ancestry. All the Filipinos I have met in the Philippines and in the US are/were quick to acknowledge and proud of their ancestry. However, in my case, it is "foreigners" who have had problems with my identity. When I went to Spain in the mid-1990s, I learned to "Ola" to many Spaniards. They thought I was a Spaniard. When I was still living in New York, in the subways, I have been talked to very often in Chinese (perhaps they can sense my Chinese ancestry), I have been talked too very often in Spanish (perhaps thay can sense my Spanish ancestry), and at one time I was talked to in Indonesian (perhaps they can sense my Malayan ancestry). Other "foreigners" in the subways talk to me in English because they couldn't make out where I am from originally. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/20/2007 4:00:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: The main reason why it is very hard for modern-day Filipinos to define their national identity is that they often fail or refuse to recognize the fact that modern Filipino culture has actually 4 pillar cultures - Malay, Spanish, American and Chinese: ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 12:13:49 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The New www.WEKAFUSA.org - UNIFYING FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >From what I understand WEKAF USA elected a new governing board and had to set up a new web site. It is geared toward the USA member schools and fighters. I'm not sure who runs WEKAF.com but I'm sure it's someone within the WEKAF International group.. Don Edwards www.imafit.com _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Rocky" To: Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 09:24:02 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Eskrima or Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was just wondering if one was more advanced then the other, I know Kali is the mother art, should I start off with a more basic art like Eskrima, before venturing into something like Kali??? Confused but ready to learn! Rocky --__--__-- Message: 4 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Eskrima or Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 08:12:34 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I was just wondering if one was more advanced then the other, I know Kali is > the mother art, should I start off with a more basic art like Eskrima, > before venturing into something like Kali??? > > Confused but ready to learn! In your case I'd say start with the most simple of them all, Arnis... :) Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Mark Harrell" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 19:34:52 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali the mystery term Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rather than engage your strongly worded belief and opinion let me say that we may be on common ground in that although I am not a historian I do not think that Kali is Filipino in origin but that Kali does have Filipino / Spanish / Chinese, Indonesian, etc influence. The art of Kali has not be proven to be of Filipino origin. It seems that there are claims and heated debate but no real proof one way or the other. I also agree with you with regards to the usage of the term KALI itself is not the real issue. The real issue is the claim by SOME groups that Kali is the "mother art" etc...  I do not personally  subscribe to this story that you and many find so offensive. I have found that many martial arts from different cultures from around the world have a love for legend, fantasy or just made up histories. It must be a universal human trait... It seems that for some reason South East Asia shares the common belief that if something is older that it is somehow more pure, more effective, more authentic etc... The reality is that older does not make it somehow more pure or more effective or more authentic. For example: the wooden club or sword are older than the gun or F18 fighter jet or Atomic bomb but the age of the weapon does not make it better or more pure, etc... The usefulness of the weapon depends on the environement, situation, etc, etc... Successful self defense as you know is a complex combination of actual techniques, strategy and principles as well as the individuals attributes and skills that make something effective or not. As far as the debate over older, mother art, more pure or more authentic that will always remain subjective and for me personally, I do not care. It is quite simply not important to me. Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali ? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use ?  What names pre-date the use of the Spanish terms, Escrima and Arnis to describe the native martial arts of the Philippines before the influence of the Spanish ?  It seems to me that if anyone had creditable information on the answer to this question that the Kali claims would finally fade into the background as historical truth stood up to the stories, legend and myth of Kali in the Philippines. Peace be with you, Mark ******************************************************** Hello, I dont like to dip my hand to the "Kali" term again, but I think I have to clarigy one thing. We can argue of what Inosanto and other "Kali" usage term and it will not end the issue. The real isssue is not the "Term" amny times is have been point it out. and I will point it out again, which one you dont understand: 1) NO, "Kali" is not the mother arts, like they claimed. 2) NO, Kali is not known Filipino Martial Arts in the Philippines. 3) NO, Kali is not any different than Arnis and Eskrima now. 4) NO, Kali is not in any means far better nor less that Eskrima Fighter, and Arnisadores. Now people which is the part of "NO" you dont understand, the "N" or the "O"?? its still "NO" I mentioned it before "kali" now is accepted term as Filipino Martial Arts, and fine and we cant change that, but the only calimed that we Eskrimadores, Estokadores, and Arnisadores is stand is m this is not the "Mother Arts". Hope its is end here, becaused we are going back and port to some inclusion, and insertion of the words that not mere know to the Filipino. Now, I will get down to my own word again, you want to be called pure, then one way to see if your art is any better or the true "Mother of all Mother of the Filipino Martial Atrs", then put it in action. I will stand to that challenge, and I am a Arnisdor, Eskrimador and Estokador, and I am tired hearing the claimed that this "Kali" is the "Mother Art" that all. I dont have any comment to the skills of Kali practitioner, but I am very much insulted when someone that not even born and raised in the Philippines is arguing this "mother Arts" of all Filipino Martila Arts "Kali". I dont care what your instructor todl you, to us majority of Filipino can easily clraify it that your instructor made a big "Boboo" such a claimed that many of us not agreeing. Kali dont have ground for acceptance to be the Mother Arts, the Purer, the first art and so on. If you are not Filipino and try to push to us to accepted that "Term" or to be accepted by others Arnis and Eskrima believer. Also, even the Filipino whom set the "Term" his intention is to clearly say that his art is the purer, and the rest of the FMA is come from this brand. They are "darn" wrong and i can sure you that, unless they can explain every single theory of Arnis, Style, Eskrima, and Estokada and see the close ties to each other, I would probably the first one to accept that claimed. Hope this will put some clarification of such claimed. Kali-mutan, (forget) about it, "Kali-kisan" (Scale off), "Kali-sin" (Scrape) off, even the blade itself that used in Mindanao called "Kalis" is not show or even traceable to be the mother art of Arnis/Eskrima. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live Hotmail. --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 17:36:35 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Sultanate of Tondo of Bruneian influence had only been established in less of a generation(paragraphs 2 and 3 of article) by the time the Spaniards came in 1521. Manila had only been established in 1500, according to a friend of mine. Prior to the Bruneian conquest of Lusong Guo, Tondo had been a center of trade which prompted the Sultan of Brunei to "covet" its riches. I have posted the article below with the list of sources...(for those who require written proof) PG Marinas once said,"If you want a written history of the Philippines, look to the other countries for sources". Here is the article below. "INDÛNG KAPAMPÃNGAN Early History: As early as 3000 B.C., the early inhabitants of Pampanga built boats and navigated the rivers and seas. Pampanga’s oldest artifact to date, a large 5000 year old stone tool used for building boats, was found in the municipality of Candaba. An early understanding of navigation helped facilitate the movement of people, goods, technology and ideas, creating therefore, a highly advanced civilisation in Pampanga since ancient times. Pampanga’s territory is located at the heartland of what was once a sovereign trading power in East Asia called LÅ­sóng Guo (Luzón: circa 13th century AD – 1572 AD). LÅ­sóng Guo first appeared in ancient Chinese text when it sent ambassadors to Yuan (1264-1368 AD) Dynasty China in 1330 AD and then again to the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 AD) in 1373 AD and 1407 AD. But LÅ­sóng Guo could have existed as early as the 10th century AD. Its capital Dóngdu ("eastern capital", presently Tondo) already appeared in the Laguna Copper Plate Inscription (LCI), an ancient document written in 922 AD in ancient Javanese that is currently housed in the National Museum . LÅ­sóng Guo grew in importance when the Ming Dynasty put a total ban on all foreign trade in the mid-15th century AD. Despite the ban, Chinese trade goods continued to be smuggled into LÅ­sóng Guo from the port of Guangzhou. Japanese merchants and tea masters like Shimai Shoshitsu, Kamiya Sotan and Ruzon (LÅ­sóng) Sukezaemon established their branches in LÅ­sóng Guo to participate in the illicit but profitable China trade and thus made them legends in their own country. LÅ­sóng Guo's wealth also attracted the attention of neighboring Brunei. Under its energetic ruler Paduka Sri Baginda Maharajah Yang Di Pertuan Bulkiah, Brunei attacked LÅ­sóng Guo before the beginning of the 16th century and forced its rulers to share their illegal yet lucrative trade. Bulkiah called LÅ­sóng Guo by the Sanskrit name Suwarna Bhumi (Land of Gold) and therefore demanded a tribute of gold and porcelain. Bruneian sources recorded that the mastermind of this venture was Bulkiah’s uncle and royal admiral, Pangiran Salalila. To secure Brunei’s interest, Salalila established the port city of Mainílâ ( Manila ) to watch over Dongdu (Tondo) in 1500 AD. LÅ­sóng Guo’s influence in Southeast Asian affairs expanded in the 16th century. Early Portuguese chroniclers had recorded that Luções (as the Portuguese called the people of LÅ­sóng Guo) were involved not just economically but also politically in the affairs of the Sultanate of Malacca, Atjeh, Menangkabau, Burma and Ayuthaya (Thailand). Portuguese merchants and missionaries reached the shores of Guangzhou (in China) and Satsuma (in Japan) for the first time through chartered LÅ­sóng ships. LÅ­sóng pilots were hired to navigate Portuguese ships along the East China Sea. In 1565 AD, Spanish chroniclers noted that the "Chinese merchants" who traveled all over Southeast Asia in the 16th century AD to trade were actually from LÅ­sóng Guo. So were the people of LÅ­sóng Guo, and therefore the early inhabitants of Pampanga, ethnic Chinese? Bruneian sources show that Bulkiah's uncle, Pangiran Salalila, was actually a Chinese by the name of Ong Sum Ping. Various Philippine sources, including the Will of Fernando Malang Balagtas, would indicate that Salalila is actually a member of LÅ­sóng Guo's ancient nobility. He was the brother of the goddess Pánginuán and father of the Lakandúlâ of Dóngdu. So, were they they Chinese then and that their descendants ~ the Kapampangans ~ be considered ethnic Chinese? LÅ­sóng Guo ended her glory after the Spaniards finally conquered it in 1571 AD and incorporated it into their newly formed colony, the Philippines. LÅ­sóng Guo’s richest and most productive portion was carved out to become the Province of Pampanga. Author: Michael Raymon Tayag-Manaloto Pangilinan (Siuálâ ding Meángûbié)" Sources: 1. Dong Xi Yang Gang (Chronicles of the Eastern and Western Oceans during the Ming Dynasty) 1625. 2. The Laguna Copper Plate Inscription [LCI], National Museum Papers, 1992. 3. Gaspar de San Agustin, Conquistas de las Islas Filipinas: 1565-1615, 1698. 4. Tome Pires, Summa Oriental, 1515. 5. Mariano A. Henson, The Province of Pampanga and Its Towns: AD 1300-1965, 1965 6. Yoshikawa Eiji,Taikóki (The History of the Life of Toyotomi Hideyoshi), Tokyo, 1967. 7. Salah Silah Rajah Rajah Brunei (The Geneaology of the Rulers of Brunei) 8. Sha’er Awang Semaun (Exploits of Nahoda Ragam, King of Brunei) -----Original Message----- From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tue, 15 May 2007 15:39:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Tke "Kali" and "Arnis" Connection? The linguistic study of language to trace connections is very complicated, and looks for more than just one or two words in isolation, but rather approaches the whole language (grammar, syntax, etc...) to determine connections with other languages, such as when languages split, etc... They are actually very accurate at doing this. Tagalog is most related to Malay, if you really want to go down this route. Manila at the time of Spanish conquest, was the Muslim Sultanate of Tondo, a colony/offshoot of the N Borneo Sultanate (the Sultans were related). So the connection, at least in regards to these people, is not with Mindanao or Visaya, but rather N Borneo (and if we go by relationship of the royalty at the time) in a long way the Sultanate of Sulu (of course as time goes by the Sultanates in Mindanao cross marry, but we are talking at the time of separation by Spanish conquest). And of course this does not speak to the whole of the people on Luzon, of which there were many distinct tribes at the time with their own traditions and cultures. ________________________________________________________________________ Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam and email virus protection. =0 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:33:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali the mystery term To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Kali(as it is pronounced), in the Ilocano dialect means to "dig". It's still only a word to me. Not some "proclaimed" word of authority to fuss over. The word is here now and we use it today. I use it, because I DIG IT('not because I'm i-loco). -Daniel Mark Harrell wrote: Rather than engage your strongly worded belief and opinion let me say that we may be on common ground in that although I am not a historian I do not think that Kali is Filipino in origin but that Kali does have Filipino / Spanish / Chinese, Indonesian, etc influence. The art of Kali has not be proven to be of Filipino origin. It seems that there are claims and heated debate but no real proof one way or the other. I also agree with you with regards to the usage of the term KALI itself is not the real issue. The real issue is the claim by SOME groups that Kali is the "mother art" etc... I do not personally subscribe to this story that you and many find so offensive. I have found that many martial arts from different cultures from around the world have a love for legend, fantasy or just made up histories. It must be a universal human trait... It seems that for some reason South East Asia shares the common belief that if something is older that it is somehow more pure, more effective, more authentic etc... The reality is that older does not make it somehow more pure or more effective or more authentic. For example: the wooden club or sword are older than the gun or F18 fighter jet or Atomic bomb but the age of the weapon does not make it better or more pure, etc... The usefulness of the weapon depends on the environement, situation, etc, etc... Successful self defense as you know is a complex combination of actual techniques, strategy and principles as well as the individuals attributes and skills that make something effective or not. As far as the debate over older, mother art, more pure or more authentic that will always remain subjective and for me personally, I do not care. It is quite simply not important to me. Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali ? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use ? What names pre-date the use of the Spanish terms, Escrima and Arnis to describe the native martial arts of the Philippines before the influence of the Spanish ? It seems to me that if anyone had creditable information on the answer to this question that the Kali claims would finally fade into the background as historical truth stood up to the stories, legend and myth of Kali in the Philippines. Peace be with you, Mark ******************************************************** Hello, I dont like to dip my hand to the "Kali" term again, but I think I have to clarigy one thing. We can argue of what Inosanto and other "Kali" usage term and it will not end the issue. The real isssue is not the "Term" amny times is have been point it out. and I will point it out again, which one you dont understand: 1) NO, "Kali" is not the mother arts, like they claimed. 2) NO, Kali is not known Filipino Martial Arts in the Philippines. 3) NO, Kali is not any different than Arnis and Eskrima now. 4) NO, Kali is not in any means far better nor less that Eskrima Fighter, and Arnisadores. Now people which is the part of "NO" you dont understand, the "N" or the "O"?? its still "NO" I mentioned it before "kali" now is accepted term as Filipino Martial Arts, and fine and we cant change that, but the only calimed that we Eskrimadores, Estokadores, and Arnisadores is stand is m this is not the "Mother Arts". Hope its is end here, becaused we are going back and port to some inclusion, and insertion of the words that not mere know to the Filipino. Now, I will get down to my own word again, you want to be called pure, then one way to see if your art is any better or the true "Mother of all Mother of the Filipino Martial Atrs", then put it in action. I will stand to that challenge, and I am a Arnisdor, Eskrimador and Estokador, and I am tired hearing the claimed that this "Kali" is the "Mother Art" that all. I dont have any comment to the skills of Kali practitioner, but I am very much insulted when someone that not even born and raised in the Philippines is arguing this "mother Arts" of all Filipino Martila Arts "Kali". I dont care what your instructor todl you, to us majority of Filipino can easily clraify it that your instructor made a big "Boboo" such a claimed that many of us not agreeing. Kali dont have ground for acceptance to be the Mother Arts, the Purer, the first art and so on. If you are not Filipino and try to push to us to accepted that "Term" or to be accepted by others Arnis and Eskrima believer. Also, even the Filipino whom set the "Term" his intention is to clearly say that his art is the purer, and the rest of the FMA is come from this brand. They are "darn" wrong and i can sure you that, unless they can explain every single theory of Arnis, Style, Eskrima, and Estokada and see the close ties to each other, I would probably the first one to accept that claimed. Hope this will put some clarification of such claimed. Kali-mutan, (forget) about it, "Kali-kisan" (Scale off), "Kali-sin" (Scrape) off, even the blade itself that used in Mindanao called "Kalis" is not show or even traceable to be the mother art of Arnis/Eskrima. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live Hotmail. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas --------------------------------- Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest