Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 02:59:02 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #163 - 16 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Help: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kali/mother art? (jason couture) 2. Re: Kali (ken jo) 3. Re: Kali the mystery term (jay de leon) 4. FMA: Which One?Escrima?Arnis?Kali? (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #162 - 8 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Seminar::::Filipino Fighting Arts (James Nordstrom) 6. Seminar:::Gathering of Warriors (James Nordstrom) 7. Can't see the Kali tree for the Kali forest? (Kristine Strasburger) 8. Question for Manila locals (Kristine Strasburger) 9. Kali - the final word (Jonathan Kessler) 10. Re: Kali/mother art? (Ray) 11. Re: Kali/mother art? (jay de leon) 12. kali training in chicago area (Czar Peralta) 13. About breaking of Cold Steel Bokken (James Judy) 14. Re: Past Ilonggo FMA Masters (bgdebuque) 15. Re: How about "Bastoneros"? (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 09:01:20 -0700 (PDT) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali/mother art? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HAHAHA........Sorry. Rocky, You must have just joined this list. Welcome! They have been discussing Kali for about a week now. Dig through the older digests and you will learn about Kali. Again, welcome to the FMA. http://www.myspace.com/jasoncouture ____________________________________________________________________________________Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 08:12:26 -0700 (PDT) From: ken jo To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net greetings! I am thankful for all the additional information on KALI that I have learned in this digest. I respect the opinions being presented here and in relation to this topic, I would like to know if anybody has information as to which system/style Mr. Yambao and Mr. Mirafuente belonged to or were practicing at that time that they agreed to acknowledge the terminology "KALI" in the book "Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis" which was published in 1957? [-- as to where Mr. Mirafuente got his info - that would be the subject of debates - but it would seem logical to assume that the use of that word has been in existence long before the publishing of the book - as the draft document, i heard, was 20-30 years in the making - we can only surmise that the word KALI was in existence at least in the 1900s or a minimum of 100++ years.. but if we are to be strict, legalistic, and technical about it, then the published word KALI is at least 50 years old this year --] -- matagal ko na po sanang gustong itanong ito noon pa.. ano po ba ang istilo ni manong mirafuente at manong yambao noon at pumayag sila na bigyan pansin ang terminolohiyang "KALI" sa panahong 1957? -- dugay na unta nako ni gusto ipangutana, unsa diay ang istilo nila noy mirafuente ug noy yambao niadto nga nisugot man sila na gamitun ang "KALI" niadtong 1957? maraming salamat po.. PS: - got this from Bakbakan's website - "..Yambao and Rey Galang share a common Pampango heritage. Both share a distinctive mastery of Pampanga's esoteric fighting art, the Sinawali or "Adwang Mutun." - and from various sources: Dan Inosanto [born 24 July 1936] was only 21 years old in 1957 and though exposed to FMA in his early years, at this time he was still studying Judo under Duke Yoshimura - it was Ed Parker of American Kenpo Karate who encouraged him to study FMA sometime 1961-63.. Manong Dan's book on the Filipino Martial Arts was published in 1977 - a full 20 years after Manong Yambao's book was published.. ____________________________________________________________________________________Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 08:17:11 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali the mystery term To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali ? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use ? " What is the logic here? If a Filipino came to America many years ago and used the term Kali (as an FMA term or name), therefore it follows that Kali was being used in the Phil. as an FMA term or name? By the way, some of these Kali name users switched from arnis or eskrima to kali. Could it be they heard of the term Kali while in the U.S. already? Also, people do not just start to use a term that may not have been in use or common use. Some people actually create or baptize their style new names. My favorite examples are ED listmember Badger Jones with "Siling Labuyo Arnis" and Blaise Loong with "Patayin Estilo." I have written about these two gentlemen who happen to be friends or at least acquaintances who do not mind the ribbing, I hope. Again, you may use any name you want, but imbuing that name with mystical, historical, other-worldly connotation without historical basis or at the very least scholarly proof is a different matter. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com Mark Harrell wrote: Rather than engage your strongly worded belief and opinion let me say that we may be on common ground in that although I am not a historian I do not think that Kali is Filipino in origin but that Kali does have Filipino / Spanish / Chinese, Indonesian, etc influence. The art of Kali has not be proven to be of Filipino origin. It seems that there are claims and heated debate but no real proof one way or the other. I also agree with you with regards to the usage of the term KALI itself is not the real issue. The real issue is the claim by SOME groups that Kali is the "mother art" etc... I do not personally subscribe to this story that you and many find so offensive. I have found that many martial arts from different cultures from around the world have a love for legend, fantasy or just made up histories. It must be a universal human trait... It seems that for some reason South East Asia shares the common belief that if something is older that it is somehow more pure, more effective, more authentic etc... The reality is that older does not make it somehow more pure or more effective or more authentic. For example: the wooden club or sword are older than the gun or F18 fighter jet or Atomic bomb but the age of the weapon does not make it better or more pure, etc... The usefulness of the weapon depends on the environement, situation, etc, etc... Successful self defense as you know is a complex combination of actual techniques, strategy and principles as well as the individuals attributes and skills that make something effective or not. As far as the debate over older, mother art, more pure or more authentic that will always remain subjective and for me personally, I do not care. It is quite simply not important to me. Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali ? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use ? What names pre-date the use of the Spanish terms, Escrima and Arnis to describe the native martial arts of the Philippines before the influence of the Spanish ? It seems to me that if anyone had creditable information on the answer to this question that the Kali claims would finally fade into the background as historical truth stood up to the stories, legend and myth of Kali in the Philippines. Peace be with you, Mark ******************************************************** Hello, I dont like to dip my hand to the "Kali" term again, but I think I have to clarigy one thing. We can argue of what Inosanto and other "Kali" usage term and it will not end the issue. The real isssue is not the "Term" amny times is have been point it out. and I will point it out again, which one you dont understand: 1) NO, "Kali" is not the mother arts, like they claimed. 2) NO, Kali is not known Filipino Martial Arts in the Philippines. 3) NO, Kali is not any different than Arnis and Eskrima now. 4) NO, Kali is not in any means far better nor less that Eskrima Fighter, and Arnisadores. Now people which is the part of "NO" you dont understand, the "N" or the "O"?? its still "NO" I mentioned it before "kali" now is accepted term as Filipino Martial Arts, and fine and we cant change that, but the only calimed that we Eskrimadores, Estokadores, and Arnisadores is stand is m this is not the "Mother Arts". Hope its is end here, becaused we are going back and port to some inclusion, and insertion of the words that not mere know to the Filipino. Now, I will get down to my own word again, you want to be called pure, then one way to see if your art is any better or the true "Mother of all Mother of the Filipino Martial Atrs", then put it in action. I will stand to that challenge, and I am a Arnisdor, Eskrimador and Estokador, and I am tired hearing the claimed that this "Kali" is the "Mother Art" that all. I dont have any comment to the skills of Kali practitioner, but I am very much insulted when someone that not even born and raised in the Philippines is arguing this "mother Arts" of all Filipino Martila Arts "Kali". I dont care what your instructor todl you, to us majority of Filipino can easily clraify it that your instructor made a big "Boboo" such a claimed that many of us not agreeing. Kali dont have ground for acceptance to be the Mother Arts, the Purer, the first art and so on. If you are not Filipino and try to push to us to accepted that "Term" or to be accepted by others Arnis and Eskrima believer. Also, even the Filipino whom set the "Term" his intention is to clearly say that his art is the purer, and the rest of the FMA is come from this brand. They are "darn" wrong and i can sure you that, unless they can explain every single theory of Arnis, Style, Eskrima, and Estokada and see the close ties to each other, I would probably the first one to accept that claimed. Hope this will put some clarification of such claimed. Kali-mutan, (forget) about it, "Kali-kisan" (Scale off), "Kali-sin" (Scrape) off, even the blade itself that used in Mindanao called "Kalis" is not show or even traceable to be the mother art of Arnis/Eskrima. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Like the way Microsoft Office Outlook works? You’ll love Windows Live Hotmail. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:32:24 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA: Which One?Escrima?Arnis?Kali? (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #162 - 8 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Rocky, Perhaps you might consider my way of making a decision whenever I am confronted with very difficult choices - I toss a coin. Good Luck. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/24/2007 7:17:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: I was just wondering if one was more advanced then the other, I know Kali is the mother art, should I start off with a more basic art like Eskrima, before venturing into something like Kali??? Confused but ready to learn! Rocky ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:25:00 -0700 (PDT) From: James Nordstrom To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Seminar::::Filipino Fighting Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Doce Pares Eskima*Eskrido*Pangamot Federation presents Grandmaster Cacoy Canete Sunday June 3, 2007 : 10am-4pm Liles˘ Karate 2350 Fruitridge Road Sacramento, CA 95822 (corner of Fruitridge and 24th Street) $50 seminar fee. Equipment needed, sticks, which can be purchased at the event. Contact Master Guy Kinanahan 916.955.2761 for more information. Cheers Jim _____________________________________________________________________________ _______Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 11:25:39 -0700 (PDT) From: James Nordstrom To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Seminar:::Gathering of Warriors Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Presented by Grandmaster E Bautista and NorCal K.S.D.I. Featuring Grandmaster Robert Castro – Eskabo Daan and Master Lito Concepcion – Kombatan. A in depth seminar sharing the knowledge of the Filipino Martial Arts. The opportunity to learn two extraordinary styles from two extraordinary Masters. The chance to learn and understand the Filipino culture behind the Martial Art. Date: Saturday, June 30 2007 Time: Registration 8am-9am First session 9:30am-12:30pm Second session 2pm-6pm **Lunch will be provided Cost: $45 for adults $25 for 17 and under Location: 1350 Amador St. Vallejo, CA 94590 Contact Information: Tasi Alo 707.208.3876 John Santa Catalin 707.373.3643 Cheers Jim _____________________________________________________________________________ _______Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:17:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Kristine Strasburger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Can't see the Kali tree for the Kali forest? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Respectful greetings to all, and thanks for the thought-provoking discussions of late. Maybe I am being simple-minded here, but I just don't understand why people are not accepting of the previously stated (by more than one poster) explanation supposedly stemming from Guros Dan Inosanto and Ben Largusa themselves: That the term Kali as it is applied to the FMA's is simply a combination of two words (Kamot or Kamut and Lihot or Lihok) that give the meaning of "move of the hand". The fact that the word "kali" exists in a number of different languages in various forms and with various meanings would be totally irrelevant and coincidental in this case. It does not seem too far-fetched to me that this is the true source of the term Kali in the FMA's considering the way the FMA's have been taught and passed on before they were affected by modern commercialism, and the need for official names of styles/systems, ranking, titles, etc. I am not Filipino by descent, so I may be making a very limited overgeneralization here (and please excuse me if I am), but it has been my observation in 24 years of involvement in the FMA's that it is not uncommon for a Filipino teacher to "make up" or "create" a term to call something for the benefit of his western student/audience, not because he is trying to appear knowledgeable, but because the western mind craves a method for categorizing and filing information in a different way than the eastern mind does, and so he is trying to meet the needs of his western student. Obviously, there exists names, terms, etc. in the eastern arts, but there just seems to be a different approach to the naming, especially if you try to discern the world-view behind the physical and verbal expressions. (Just for the record, I acknowledge that plenty of people from all races make up terms for what they are teaching. My statement above was made to draw out the differences of the world-views between eastern and western thought, not the practices of races, per se., so no flame-throwing is necessary on this point, please.) As for the whole issue of "Kali" being a mother art, I would venture to say that Guro Inosanto might regret the phrasing he used in his book. Many writers wish they would have written some things differently in hindsight (Mark Wiley even stated so in his revised version of one of his editions), and this may be one of those cases. Guro Inosanto is one of the most highly respected individuals in the FMA, partly because he does not have a divisive personality. It does not seem to be in keeping with his long-standing reputation that he meant to imply Kali was something better or more pure when he used the term "mother art." It is plausible that Guro Inosanto was simply trying to express the differences between kada-anan (old style) and kabaroan (new style) in understandable terms for his English speaking audience. Keep in mind that this was a ground-breaking book on a relatively unknown topic in America at the time of publication, and writers always write with a particular audience in mind. In this case, it would not be unreasonable to say that the old style is the mother of the new style without implying something better or more pure about the old style or mother. Putting your thoughts in writing can be difficult, and it is too easy to mis-interpret the writer's thoughts and intentions when you can't get clarification and feedback. Just my two cents on the issue. It is not a waste of time to discuss and try to clarify this issue, but it certainly could become a waste of time and effort if the simplest explanation closest to the earliest published occurrences of the word Kali in relation to the FMA's is not even given honest consideration and discussion. Ideally we would have an official statement from Guro Inosanto himself (in print other than on the internet, which is too easily falsified, or on film (hint, hint, Crafty)) that would become a source of documentation for the simple creation of the word Kali from the combination of Kamut and Lihok, if that is indeed his understanding of the source of the word. Obviously, Guro Inosanto was not the first person to combine these words to form the term Kali, but he was certainly closer than most of us to sources such as Grandmaster Ilustrisimo at the time the term began to be used more specifically as an official name (for the benefit of the western mind???), and so he should have a pretty good idea whether the simply created descriptive term kali became "elevated" to the status of the official name "Kali' or not. Best Regards, Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com --------------------------------- Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 13:28:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Kristine Strasburger To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Question for Manila locals Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To anyone who lives in Manila, I was wondering if there is any specific term used to refer to the eskrima training that occurs at La Luneta/Rizal Park. I am trying to organize a free exchange of eskrima knowledge in our local city park on a regular basis this summer, similar to how I understand it occurs there at La Luneta, and I thought it would be good to find out if there is any special name for it used by the locals there in Manila. Specifically, if a person wants to tell their friend to meet them at La Luneta where the eskrima training is happening in order to work out, what would they say to their friend in colloquial terms? (Could you also provide the english translation for me?) If any of you on the list are in the area and want to join us for these workouts, we will be meeting every Wednesday and Friday night from about 7:30 to 9:30 p.m., June 8 thru Aug. 31, 2007 at City Park between the Play Fort and the Bandshell, downtown Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Email me privately if you would like. Thanks in advance for your responses. Kristine Strasburger www.HeartlandEskrimaSchool.com --------------------------------- Bored stiff? Loosen up... Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali - the final word Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There has been a *lot* of discussion on this topic. But really, EVERYONE knows that "kali" comes from the Filipinos in Hawaii, and derives from the local way of saying "Merry Christmas" - Mele KALIkimaka Because at Christmas, like in FMA, it is better to give than to receive... Are we done yet? JK --__--__-- Message: 10 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali/mother art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:20:39 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > HAHAHA........Sorry. Rocky, You must have just joined > this list. Welcome! They have been discussing Kali > for about a week now. Dig through the older digests > and you will learn about Kali. Again, welcome to the FMA. Ummm, Rocky is an OLD timer. Got the first set of commercial tapes that Remy Presas put out? When Remy keeps saying, "Rocky, come here". Who do you think that young thin eskrimador is? I give you our old friend Rocky... Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:26:25 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali/mother art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Y'all been punked. Rocky Pasiwk is an arnisador of some note and is an old hand at ED who, with his wicked sense of humor, drops by occasionally just to stir the pot, like in this case. Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com jason couture wrote: HAHAHA........Sorry. Rocky, You must have just joined this list. Welcome! They have been discussing Kali for about a week now. Dig through the older digests and you will learn about Kali. Again, welcome to the FMA. http://www.myspace.com/jasoncouture ____________________________________________________________________________________Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 15:31:59 -0700 From: "Czar Peralta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] kali training in chicago area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have a friend that is moving to Chicago next month. Does anyone know any schools or instructors to train with in the Chicago ares? Salamat, Czar --__--__-- Message: 13 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 16:56:18 -0700 (PDT) From: James Judy To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] About breaking of Cold Steel Bokken Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Does anyone have the link to the Dog Bros vid where they broke the CS Bokken? I believe that the vid was taken indoors... Thanks ____________________________________________________________________________________Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 --__--__-- Message: 14 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:11:57 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Past Ilonggo FMA Masters Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net He used to conduct classes in our neigborhood near Zamora and Melliza Streets at the Iloilo Port Area during the years right before Martial Law (around 1969 to 1971). About twice a week it would be in our house so, as the only young kid in the audience, I would normally be tasked to help clear the chairs from the sala for his practice sessions. He was in his late 50s or early 60s at that time. He would normally teach together with a 60-something Jiujitsu master from Zarraga town named "Usting" who, as I remember, allegedly learned the art from the Japanese occupation forces during WWII. Usting is a real character because he is always barefooted - even when travelling from Zarraga to Iloilo City Proper. Judging by the thickness of the soles of his foot though I wouldn't think he would need any foot wear though... =[:->] > > ++ > Musta Bill !! > Yeah, Ilongo but left loilo long time ago, ~ 1965 to move to Manila. I'll > ask > Mert and/or James if they have any info on "Siong Jalique" and his system. > Lapuz, is about 30 minutes walk from our house in LaPaz.. Be interesting > to > know my kababayan (townmate) and his exploits. > ++= --__--__-- Message: 15 Date: Thu, 24 May 2007 22:24:33 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] How about "Bastoneros"? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Gat Abon! Don't forget our small corner of the Philippines where stickfighters are originally called "Bastoneros".... =[:->] I mentioned it before "kali" now is accepted term as Filipino Martial > Arts, and fine and we cant change that, but the only calimed that we > Eskrimadores, Estokadores, and Arnisadores is stand is m this is not > the "Mother Arts". Hope its is end here, becaused we are going back and > port to some inclusion, and insertion of the words that not mere know > to the Filipino. > > > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet > Garimot Arnis Training Group International > Laguna Arnis Federation International > US Harimaw Buno Federation > Hilot Research center USA > Tel. 954-432-4433 > www.garimot.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest