Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 16:54:12 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kali or Eskrima (Rocky) 2. Kali-linis/Arnis. (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re: Kali or Eskrima (jay de leon) 4. Thoughts from a Scholarly study of the FMA (Lawrence, Marc J.) 5. Rocky (jason couture) 6. Ron Balicki in NJ June 2nd and 3rd (Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness) 7. Subject: [Eskrima] kali training in chicago area (Gordon Walker) 8. Re: ms. kristina (maurice gatdula) 9. Bastonero (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #163 - 16 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 10. Kali and other Tagalog words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #163 - 16 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 11. Re: Thoughts from a Scholarly study of the FMA (jay de leon) 12. Re: Re: ms. kristina (the red baron) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Rocky" To: Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:49:46 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali or Eskrima Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Jay Wrote: >Y'all been punked. Rocky Pasiwk is an arnisador of some note > and is an old hand at ED who, with his wicked sense of humor, >drops by occasionally just to stir the pot, like in this case. >Jay de Leon Yea I figured its been 15 minutes or so since the old Kali, Eskrima, Arnis thread had been talked about! Does any of it really matter? I call it Filipino Martial arts, in this way I honor all the great masters and people of the Philippines, cause they all play a part in one way or another......Example.....Lets say Gm Momoy Cannete' fought/sparred with someone of a different style weather it was friendly or not, and maybe that person did a move that gave GM Momoy a bit of trouble.......Then as a true martial artist does GM Momoy would go back and figure out a defense for it...this scenario happened to GM Presas, GM Ba'con, GM Gaji, Gm Abon, GM Illistoma (sp) GM Tobada and so on, and of course they all passed on what they learned to their students, so we all benefited from it! So its all Filipino Martial arts to me, I could care less about the generic terms of Kali, Arnis, Eskrima, they are as Generic as Fung Fu and Karate!! I honor the instructor or family by attaching what ever Generic term they wish to their version of the art.....Example Balintawak ( Eskrima ) cause this is what Gm Ba'con called it, Villabra's (sp) (Kali) because that is what the called it and so on!!!! If I was to take Eskrima from Master Ray Terry it would probably be something like Old Fart ( Eskrima).......Man I still crack myself up!!!! Rocky --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:57:46 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali-linis/Arnis. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI, In some places yes. But I grow up, "Quoting" Bastonero is the so called "Chief" inside the Jail House, or Correctional. Now in the Modern time, the Bastonero is used to the term of the "Baranngay" Police, a volunteer "Bastonero". In regards of the "Term" as Kristine mentioned. Most of us understand that whatever you called your arts is fine. We are just not agreeing to such claimed. That is the "mother Art". Other than that, no comment what you call your arts. Implication of such term to be the mother, why very slim to get some info, prior of the big boom of FMA. About the question what "Yambao's art, is clearly said it on the Title "Mga Karunungan ng Larung Arnis" (Knowledge's in Play Arnis). Well, we are only trying hard "Kali-linis" ( to keep cleaning) the misconception that have been promote of FMA. I have an High-respect to Guro Inosanto, and no questioning his skill and qualification. But the "Term" is not only used by him, and sadly, seems like a lot of self claimed Grandmaster follow to calim their arts is the "Kali" the Mother arts since thir movement is adopted from Arnis, Eskrima and Estokada. Besides a lot of them, never experienced how to get "Hit" or avoid to get "Hit" by non-giving pratitioner of the arts. Again, I will repeat my self "NO" for the mother arts claim. You are right, a lot of this "master" made up name to the techniques and their arts, to make sure that they give something to the Western FMA. Did you see if this so called Grandmaster dont even get it right the "name" of each strike, stances, defense. etc . We the Eskrimadores of Luzon, even we dont know each other we shared the same name of major strike of our Style. Like Yambao's book, he name each strike, and even their differences still the major name still intact to the their style. (example: Buhat Araw, Tagang Alanganin, Saboy, Bartikal to name a few.) I also read the few claimed that the Filipino Martial Arts is "NO" particular 'Stances". This shows that the footwork alone is not understood. Becaused footwork is served as the Stances, then it evolve the naming of different Fighting stances used in Eskrima and Arnis. Stances is shows the particular style of one system, Like in Serrada, their most "uniques" stances is the "Sumbrada stance" or "Kalong Stance" (Craddle Stnce) in our style, the stick is cross position to the left hand.. In Balintawak, the stances is the "Buhat Araw" or to us is "Amba Stance" (Ready Stance) placing the weapon in "cock positon" like he is ready to straight punch, Weapon is pulled to the right shoulder stick slightly leaning backward. The Modern Arnis used many stances too, even though is not name in particular it was explained clearly taught to the student. > > Hi Gat Abon! > > Don't forget our small corner of the Philippines where stickfighters are > originally called "Bastoneros"....  =[:->] > > Thanks, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 07:36:03 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali or Eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well, I didn't say Rocky was diplomatic or humble, or that he could spell. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com Rocky wrote: Jay Wrote: >Y'all been punked. Rocky Pasiwk is an arnisador of some note > and is an old hand at ED who, with his wicked sense of humor, >drops by occasionally just to stir the pot, like in this case. >Jay de Leon Yea I figured its been 15 minutes or so since the old Kali, Eskrima, Arnis thread had been talked about! Does any of it really matter? I call it Filipino Martial arts, in this way I honor all the great masters and people of the Philippines, cause they all play a part in one way or another......Example.....Lets say Gm Momoy Cannete' fought/sparred with someone of a different style weather it was friendly or not, and maybe that person did a move that gave GM Momoy a bit of trouble.......Then as a true martial artist does GM Momoy would go back and figure out a defense for it...this scenario happened to GM Presas, GM Ba'con, GM Gaji, Gm Abon, GM Illistoma (sp) GM Tobada and so on, and of course they all passed on what they learned to their students, so we all benefited from it! So its all Filipino Martial arts to me, I could care less about the generic terms of Kali, Arnis, Eskrima, they are as Generic as Fung Fu and Karate!! I honor the instructor or family by attaching what ever Generic term they wish to their version of the art.....Example Balintawak ( Eskrima ) cause this is what Gm Ba'con called it, Villabra's (sp) (Kali) because that is what the called it and so on!!!! If I was to take Eskrima from Master Ray Terry it would probably be something like Old Fart ( Eskrima).......Man I still crack myself up!!!! Rocky _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 08:36:27 -0700 From: "Lawrence, Marc J." To: Cc: Subject: [Eskrima] Thoughts from a Scholarly study of the FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To All, I have found the heated debate on terminology very interesting. This sparked me share my thoughts on the subject of the Original art and its name. I am married to Filipina of Visayan /Ilocano heritage. My family refers to me as Filipino by marriage. I have been very fortunate to have the art and its history shared me with so I could teach my children. This has led me on journey of learning so that I could share with my children so they would be proud to of be Pinoy. I have collected my own information over the years by listening to my Older Brothers, Uncles and Grandfathers. They incouraged me to read and study and listed to the old stories. This list of the names for FMA that I have collected during my journey: Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Esgrima, Kali, Pakamut, Pangamot, Panadata, Kalirongan, Didya, Kabaron, Pagkalikali, Sinawalli, Pangtusok, Macabebe, Kaliradman, Pagaradman, Estokada, Estoque, Fraile, Arnas de Mano, Arnis de Mano and Baston. All of these contain stick fighting as part of their art. (Ten of these are of Spanish language origin) Based upon the society that existed in 14 century in the Philippines Islands, there were no standing armies in the family based villages. ( the family based village concept continues with the Filipino families today) Because of constant threats of raiders from other people like the Chinese and raiding Malay, a defense system had to be developed. They had the ability to make swords-Bolos, hand cannon-Lantakas, sling arrows-Panas, shield-Tagong and great other ingenious weapons but this took time and precious resources. There were local coastal trading ships for larger areas these were armed with Lantakas. The use and manufacture of gunpowder existed. Some areas even made armor. There was a written language in use before the Spanish arrived. This need for defense created the need for a village art not martial/military art where a certain number people were expendable in a military based arts like those of the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. Being that everyone was of value because they were family, a fighting system using simple natural motion had to be created. The Datu with his best fighters had little time to take a village of farmers, craftsmen, hunters and fisherman and make them into fighting force. They had little time to train their force simply because the amount of time needed to grow/gather food and make the needed materials/ supplies. This meant that they had to teach in pieces so the first thing taught was how to fight in long range first as this was the safest when fighting. They then would teach how to fight at medium range, this had moderate risk when fighting. Then they would teach close range, this had high risk when fighting. So they used their wisdom so solve the problems. Our Grandfathers understood body mechanics far better than most give them credit for. They understood the use of natural materials far better than most give them credit for. This is the picture that I have formed of what the art must have looked like when Datu Lapu-Lapu fought Magellan and his men on April 7th 1521 is this: simple quick linear movements in using forehand and back hand strikes, in patterns used to take advantage opening, there were three ranges long-lagyo, medium-tunga-tunga and close-dugol. The motions used were ones that could be used with long sword-Kampilan, short sword-Bolo, sharpen fire harden hardwood stick or even at adjusted range a knife-Baraw. These same basic motions for close quarters combat-Layog o Bugno. Instead of stick for the empty hand fighting, the arm and the foot were referred and used in the same manner as the tip, blade edge and butt strikes of the stick. I strongly suspect after each contact with a new raider that the art changed to defeat the new threat and took the best of what they had learned from their experiences. This is what we see today with more complex movements blade arts of FMA. FMA has continued to develop as different fighting systems met here in the US and blended. Still as one studies the motions used you can still see our Grandfathers original teachings. These are some my scholarly thoughts in the study of FMA... Thank you for sharing all of your thoughts. I found that my older brothers- Ray Terry, Al Marinas Sr, Jay Deleon and Gat Puno Abon Garimot Baet thoughts very enlightening. Maraming Salamat Po, Marc Lawrence South Bay, CA. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 09:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: jason couture To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Rocky Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ha! Well I guess He got me ;-). Trouble is, there is more than one "Rocky" out there. Believe it or not.....I work with a guy named Rocky. Oh well. At any rate, it was a good get. Can we beat this "Kali" thing with a stick anymore? http://www.myspace.com/jasoncouture ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 16:43:06 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Ron Balicki in NJ June 2nd and 3rd Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ron Balicki will be at Integrated Martial Arts in Livingston NJ June 2nd and 3rd. Covered will be JKD, Shooto, FMA, and Silat. Contact IMAF at 973 422-1500 or email them at imafnj@gmail.com. Location - 18 Microlab Road, Livingston, NJ 07039 Hope to see some of you there, Don www.imafit.com _________________________________________________________________ PC Magazine’s 2007 editors’ choice for best Web mail—award-winning Windows Live Hotmail. http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 11:15:19 -0600 From: "Gordon Walker" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Subject: [Eskrima] kali training in chicago area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi, i have done some research on this one and found 1 defensor method 2 sayoc kali apprentice instructor who is listed on the sayoc website 3 degerberg school does some filipino martial arts under dan inosanto, or ron balicki, i think. 4 north shore academy 5 a muay thai, bjj, jkd, fma school south of chicago, to which I lost the link... Google some of these terms above and you should find something. Regards, Gordon --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 10:37:32 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: ms. kristina Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net nice website. no, i dont think mr inosanto meant to do any harm when he wrote the book. he was just passing on information that was given to him. the arnis/eskrima that was around back then were taught by men who left the philippines when they were very young, so he was getting a part of the picture of the FMA from them. so when he made the statement "FMA is dead in the philippines" (did he say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it didnt. ask any young filipino in those days, this book was our first reading of the philippine arts. many of us, me too, believed everyting in it. but today is 2007, not 1976. 30 years passed by, there is too much information out there for the same myth to be repeated, even if you do not "have the money to go to the philippines". and here, is the problem. see, instead of saying, okay i didnt know then, but now i know...we see the behavior of a child. which is, do not admit wrongness, but make explanations. see, i didnt spill the milk, it spilled by itself. i didnt make up the story of Kali - even though it is not a mother art - but it use to be / combination of kamay and lihok (doesnt make sense, really / only in the most remote places, it's still there! / leo gaje uses it / philippine has 80 languages. see, there is no trying to "set the record straight". my problem is deeper with this word. where you find it, you will find teachers who do most of the learning part time. they combine kali, with silat, wing chun, ba gua/xing yi, jujitsu, and biting (culinary arts) to form COMPLETE FMA, with fancy names and everything. and by the way, 10 seminars and a camp, and you too can be a teacher. no dedication to training? then buy my tapes. see, kali, arnis and eskrima are the new mcdojo, and we dont see it yet. yeah, its none of my business what somebody else does in his own backyard, but it painted the picture of what we all do. kali is a name dont fuss over it, people like to say. let me keep spreading my BS and ignore it. easy to do when you dont love the arts. just like changing a name. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 16:22:20 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Bastonero (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #163 - 16 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bastonero has a differrent connotation in Tagalog. In the Tagalog areas north of Manila, the meaning translates to "jail keepers" who use their bastons to keep prisoners under control. I am not sure if it has the same connotation in the Tagalog areas south of Manila (such as Laguna, Cavite, Batangas, etc.). APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/25/2007 7:17:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Don't forget our small corner of the Philippines where stickfighters are originally called "Bastoneros".... =[:->] ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 17:10:00 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali and other Tagalog words (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #163 - 16 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It is common knowledge that Tagalog is the Philippines national language. There is the literary Tagalog that was used by Yambao in his book Mga Karunungan sa Larong Arnis. There is the everyday Tagalog heavy with modern words that did not exist when I was growing up in my village in Central Luzon. And there are Tagalog words that are "local". In my village (about 2 hours north of Manila, in the town of Gapan that shares a boundary with Bulacan) there are "local" Tagalog words that would not be understood by anybody outside the village. Hence, a person, say, living in Cavite (south of Manila) would not know if such a word exists. Therefore, because, the Caviteno might not have heard about the word, it does not necessarily mean that the word does not exist. By the same token, a Caviteno in a certain barrio (village) may use "local" Tagalog words that I would not know anything about. The word "kalis" oftentimes was used interchangeably with "gulok" by my two granduncles who raised me. They could not have read about the word because they couldn't read. They could not have learned it from their travels because they never travelled outside the village. They could not have heard it from travelling merchants because there was no such thing in my village. My two granduncles (who were brothers) were both born in the 1880s. One of them, Ingkong Leon Marcelo taught me the pingga his version of the sibat (spear) which he used to fight the Spaniards. I am almost sure that among the many different dialects of the Philippines, there must also be "local" words not known outside a village. WWII American and Filipino POWs (in the Death March) passed my town on their way to Cabanatuan (now a city, their final area of confinement). My town is less than 1/2 hours away from Cabanatuan. American tanks that liberated my village came from up north. APMarinas Sr. (originally from Pambuan, Gapan, Nueva Ecija in Central Luzon, the Philippines) In a message dated 5/25/2007 7:17:32 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: "Does anyone know why some of the older generation of Filipinos who came to America many years ago used the term Kali ? Why would someone start to use a term that may not have been in use or in common use ? " What is the logic here? If a Filipino came to America many years ago and used the term Kali (as an FMA term or name), therefore it follows that Kali was being used in the Phil. as an FMA term or name? By the way, some of these Kali name users switched from arnis or eskrima to kali. Could it be they heard of the term Kali while in the U.S. already? ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 14:58:33 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Thoughts from a Scholarly study of the FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good post, Marc. Marc's young son is getting the best FMA education as a student of Doce Pares Master Felix Roiles. Keep in mind that during the periods you describe, circa 1521, no FMA names (as we know them) existed for any martial systems that may have been taught on some structured basis. My friend Ramon Rubia, a San Miguel Eskrima guro and a very knowledgeable and active researcher of Cebuano/Visayan eskrima, recounted to me recently that when he would ask an old timer the name of the style they practiced, most of the time they would shrug their shoulders and say something generic (in their dialect) equivalent to "fighting" or "stabbing" or some general term. Later on, they would identify an FMA style by the practitioners or their hometown or area--like Saavedra style or Moalboal fighting. I believe Ramon is working on a book that will be the culmination of many years of hands-on FMA research in Cebu and other towns in the Visayas. That is the kind of scholarly research (similar to those of James Sy and Macachor and Nepangue) that we need instead of us armchair experts jawing at each other. Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com "Lawrence, Marc J." wrote: To All, I have found the heated debate on terminology very interesting. This sparked me share my thoughts on the subject of the Original art and its name. I am married to Filipina of Visayan /Ilocano heritage. My family refers to me as Filipino by marriage. I have been very fortunate to have the art and its history shared me with so I could teach my children. This has led me on journey of learning so that I could share with my children so they would be proud to of be Pinoy. I have collected my own information over the years by listening to my Older Brothers, Uncles and Grandfathers. They incouraged me to read and study and listed to the old stories. This list of the names for FMA that I have collected during my journey: Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Esgrima, Kali, Pakamut, Pangamot, Panadata, Kalirongan, Didya, Kabaron, Pagkalikali, Sinawalli, Pangtusok, Macabebe, Kaliradman, Pagaradman, Estokada, Estoque, Fraile, Arnas de Mano, Arnis de Mano and Baston. All of these contain stick fighting as part of their art. (Ten of these are of Spanish language origin) Based upon the society that existed in 14 century in the Philippines Islands, there were no standing armies in the family based villages. ( the family based village concept continues with the Filipino families today) Because of constant threats of raiders from other people like the Chinese and raiding Malay, a defense system had to be developed. They had the ability to make swords-Bolos, hand cannon-Lantakas, sling arrows-Panas, shield-Tagong and great other ingenious weapons but this took time and precious resources. There were local coastal trading ships for larger areas these were armed with Lantakas. The use and manufacture of gunpowder existed. Some areas even made armor. There was a written language in use before the Spanish arrived. This need for defense created the need for a village art not martial/military art where a certain number people were expendable in a military based arts like those of the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans. Being that everyone was of value because they were family, a fighting system using simple natural motion had to be created. The Datu with his best fighters had little time to take a village of farmers, craftsmen, hunters and fisherman and make them into fighting force. They had little time to train their force simply because the amount of time needed to grow/gather food and make the needed materials/ supplies. This meant that they had to teach in pieces so the first thing taught was how to fight in long range first as this was the safest when fighting. They then would teach how to fight at medium range, this had moderate risk when fighting. Then they would teach close range, this had high risk when fighting. So they used their wisdom so solve the problems. Our Grandfathers understood body mechanics far better than most give them credit for. They understood the use of natural materials far better than most give them credit for. This is the picture that I have formed of what the art must have looked like when Datu Lapu-Lapu fought Magellan and his men on April 7th 1521 is this: simple quick linear movements in using forehand and back hand strikes, in patterns used to take advantage opening, there were three ranges long-lagyo, medium-tunga-tunga and close-dugol. The motions used were ones that could be used with long sword-Kampilan, short sword-Bolo, sharpen fire harden hardwood stick or even at adjusted range a knife-Baraw. These same basic motions for close quarters combat-Layog o Bugno. Instead of stick for the empty hand fighting, the arm and the foot were referred and used in the same manner as the tip, blade edge and butt strikes of the stick. I strongly suspect after each contact with a new raider that the art changed to defeat the new threat and took the best of what they had learned from their experiences. This is what we see today with more complex movements blade arts of FMA. FMA has continued to develop as different fighting systems met here in the US and blended. Still as one studies the motions used you can still see our Grandfathers original teachings. These are some my scholarly thoughts in the study of FMA... Thank you for sharing all of your thoughts. I found that my older brothers- Ray Terry, Al Marinas Sr, Jay Deleon and Gat Puno Abon Garimot Baet thoughts very enlightening. Maraming Salamat Po, Marc Lawrence South Bay, CA. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 12 Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 18:01:30 -0700 From: "the red baron" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: ms. kristina Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI all, I have been reading this conversation for a while and can't help put ask a question of some of the more experienced and knowledgeable individuals who are out there. I am still very knew to the whole FMA community but it seems to me the problem of this title comes out of misinterpretation. I may have to go back and reread Guro Inosantos book but coming out of a school derived from his and having heard him speak on FMA at a seminar the impression i got was that when he says KALI is the mother art he doesn't mean it is the progenitor but a term that was used to encompass the totality of the art. Escrima and Arnis are Spanish terms and are often used to just encompass stick fighting or stick and knife fighting. There is lots more to FMA then just that part of the art, and many things have different names, Pantukan for instance is the name of Filipino boxing my school teaches but i understand it to be a part of KALI. The foot work and much of the conceptual nature of it is identical. When he uses the term Kali my impression was that it was supposed to be another easier term for all FMA. Not a specific system or style, that is thought to be more pure and original. Not being of Filipino ancestry or being an authority i am probably wrong on this. But it seems to make sense that with so many languages, dialects, and being a huge cultural melting pot it is hard for outsiders to know that many people have different names for similar if not identical systems. The same is true for American use of FMA where many masters are quick to rename a system and teach it as something new and different. It is intresting to note that Inosanto lists 43 systems in his book and these were only a small sampling of the different systems in use at the time it was written. If you tried to list the systems and schools today just in America you would easily surpass 43 and not have even started to get a good sample. I think it also important to note that Guro Inosanto uses all three terms to describe the art both in his book and in his teaching, thus much of the confusion comes not from his teaching but from people who misinterpret his words. These same people would argue about the correct and better system regardless of if they thought it was called I'm an idiot, these are individuals who need to be reminded that there is no superior martial art only superior martial artists. Many of these people are also the same people who go to a couple of seminars and try to front like there masters with there own systems. In closing i think those people who are upset over the use of this term should be more up set with what Maurice so eloquently called the Mcdojo system (I'm so using that term from now on). Maybe i am wrong please let me know if any one disagrees with my interpretation of Guro Inosantos meaning, as he is still alive some one who knows him far better then I, who only just met him at one seminar, or maybe the man himself can comment on this and clarify it for all of us. CV, PS Friends don't let friends patronize McDonald's or Mcdojos. On 5/25/07, maurice gatdula wrote: > > nice website. > > no, i dont think mr inosanto meant to do any harm when he wrote the > book. he was just passing on information that was given to him. the > arnis/eskrima that was around back then were taught by men who left the > philippines when they were very young, so he was getting a part of the > picture of the FMA from them. so when he made the statement "FMA is dead in > the philippines" (did he say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling > what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i > dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it > wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame > him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, > and its not fair to act like it didnt. > > ask any young filipino in those days, this book was our first reading of > the philippine arts. many of us, me too, believed everyting in it. > > but today is 2007, not 1976. 30 years passed by, there is too much > information out there for the same myth to be repeated, even if you do not > "have the money to go to the philippines". and here, is the problem. see, > instead of saying, okay i didnt know then, but now i know...we see the > behavior of a child. which is, do not admit wrongness, but make > explanations. see, i didnt spill the milk, it spilled by itself. i didnt > make up the story of Kali - even though it is not a mother art - but it use > to be / combination of kamay and lihok (doesnt make sense, really / only in > the most remote places, it's still there! / leo gaje uses it / philippine > has 80 languages. see, there is no trying to "set the record straight". > > my problem is deeper with this word. where you find it, you will find > teachers who do most of the learning part time. they combine kali, with > silat, wing chun, ba gua/xing yi, jujitsu, and biting (culinary arts) to > form COMPLETE FMA, with fancy names and everything. and by the way, 10 > seminars and a camp, and you too can be a teacher. no dedication to > training? then buy my tapes. see, kali, arnis and eskrima are the new > mcdojo, and we dont see it yet. yeah, its none of my business what somebody > else does in his own backyard, but it painted the picture of what we all do. > kali is a name dont fuss over it, people like to say. let me keep spreading > my BS and ignore it. > > easy to do when you dont love the arts. just like changing a name. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2400 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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