Date: Sun, 27 May 2007 02:58:40 -0700 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #166 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Subscribed-Address: fma@martialartsresource.com List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2400 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kalis and more (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. FMA System Names (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 3. FMA and Body Mechanics (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 4. Mga Karunungan Sa Larong Arnis (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 5. Dan Inosanto (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #165 - 3 msgs) (Pananandta@aol.com) 6. Inosanto, Chicago School (gatpuno@aol.com) 7. Re: Chicago training (Kes41355@aol.com) 8. Re: The Ilonggo/Hiligaynon version of KALI (bgdebuque) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 23:59:56 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kalis and more Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > It is common knowledge that Tagalog is the Philippines national language.  > There is the literary Tagalog that was used by Yambao in his book Mga > Karunungan > sa Larong Arnis. There is the everyday Tagalog heavy with modern words that > did  not exist when I was growing up in my village in Central Luzon. And > there > are  Tagalog words that are "local". > > In my village (about 2 hours north of Manila, in the town of Gapan that  > shares a boundary with Bulacan) there are "local" Tagalog words that would > not  be > understood by anybody outside the village. Hence, a person, say, living in  > Cavite (south of Manila) would not know if such a word exists. Therefore,  > because, the Caviteno might not have heard about the word, it does not  > necessarily mean that the word does not exist. By the same token, a  > Caviteno in a > certain barrio (village) may use "local" Tagalog words that I  would not > know > anything about. > > The word "kalis" oftentimes was used interchangeably with "gulok" by my two  > granduncles who raised me. They could not have read about the word because > they  couldn't read. They could not have learned it from their travels > because > they  never travelled outside the village. They could not have heard it > from  > travelling merchants because there was no such thing in my village. My two  > granduncles (who were brothers) were both born in the 1880s. One of them,  > Ingkong > Leon Marcelo taught me the pingga his version of the sibat (spear) which  he > used to fight the Spaniards. > > I am almost sure that among the many different dialects of the Philippines,  > there must also be "local" words not known outside a village. > > PG Marinas, What are you trying to say, "kali" exist somewhere in the Philippines? Well, okay let say it's exist, are you agreeing this is the original art of Arnis and Eskrima, the Mother of your arts and mine? Its true, I mentioned it before, in old Tagalog, we openly call"Kalis" as interchangable with 'TabaK, Gulok, and itak means all Bolo. In one line on our Passion Play, during the time when Longinus was struct of St, Peter "machete" in the line Jesus said, "Isalong mo Pedro and yaong kalis, sa kamay mo. (Peter put down your bolo from your hand). But it is not based upon to recieved and accept that this is the "MotherArt". I mentioned many time, called your art any name you want, but dont call it "mother" because is not. To whom it may concern, This is to make it clear also, that we are not questioning "Inosanto's book", I personally thanks Guro Inosanto for promoting the FMA. Its make it a lot easier for us to teach the arts, becaused it already have paved the way and educated thousand of Martial Arts enthusiast. I am not talking in particular book a nd style of "Kali". Remeber also "Gaje" uses Arnis before cahngin it to "Kali". It does not mean he is the pioneer or the one of the first who teach the FMA in the US. We the young generation Filipino just bow to the old man.. Not if we know is not true what they claiming. I also have big dis-aggreeing to the Master claimed that they faught, or they competed in Tournament and claimed to be the veterans, but the claimed cannot back it-up. Where is the place, who they faguht against, and who won? Seems like everyone now a days is called themselves the so called ""Undefeated" but you know what it make sense, everyone can call themselves "Undefeated" becaused they actually truth, they never faught therefore all of them is "Undefeated". Everytime, I read a book, and they telling me the detailed of his fight, and how he finish and bitten his opponent with such clear, detailed techniccal approach,, I called them good story teller. You know why unless you see yourself on the tape doing it. You cannot really remember what have happen on the day of your fight. I fought many times in street fight, tournament, and for my life. But if you ask me if I remember what happen, I cannot tell you this, probably I can only remember the biginning and the end of the fight, and give me few days, and I would not remember what happen then. Its sads, when a Master can tell you how many time he hit his opponent. Well, if he only hit him once or twice maybe but more than that, i have doubt the story already. Well, that was me.. I dont believed of what they claimed and said. I want to see it if they can back it up.. Walk the Talk, B$$$$t walk. Give me the the day, month, year, where in thePhilippines, of other places you fought, how many witness?. No everyone is claimed they are veterans fighter, but the claimed is only claimed until this is validated by witnesses, and records. Therefore, if you dont have records or witness I suggest keep your secret, secret. Now if you put on my plate, chances are I will eat it, and I guarantee probably not only me who will enjoy eating it on the plate.. Note: Walang lihim na di nabubunyag. (No secret, never get exposed).. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 06:14:00 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA System Names (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc, Pananandata is the correct spelling. It is my family's system and it is a copyrighted name. Since you seem genuinely interested in Filipino words, you might be interested in looking at my 2 books (co-authored with my son) when they get published (by Action Pursuit Group publishers of Inside Kungfu magazine, most likely 2008). One of the two books discusses in detail the origins of the names of the cuts/strikes/thrusts used in the FMA. If you become impatient and would like to see the detailed description of the cuts/strikes/thrusts sooner, drop a line or two to Editor Dave Cater. He might schedule its publication sooner although Dave is one very busy Editor. Dave had just finished working on my book (co-authored with my son) Pananandata The Guide to Balisong Openings. The book illustrates 69 openings. We teach/practice 169 openings. The book is scheduled for release in July 2007 (in about 10 weeks). Why so many openings? I have written an article on the reasons and had submitted it to Dave. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: This list of the names for FMA that I have collected during my journey: Arnis, Eskrima, Escrima, Esgrima, Kali, Pakamut, Pangamot, Panadata, Kalirongan, Didya, Kabaron, Pagkalikali, Sinawalli, Pangtusok, Macabebe, Kaliradman, Pagaradman, Estokada, Estoque, Fraile, Arnas de Mano, Arnis de Mano and Baston. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 06:28:21 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA and Body Mechanics (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Marc, Indeed our grandfathers understood body mechanics. They cut wood and wild edible plants with their bolos from when they were 6 years old. In my case, I did all the above and fished with the bolo from when I was in the 2nd grade. Our grandfathers had lots of practice. Best. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: So they used their wisdom so solve the problems. Our Grandfathers understood body mechanics far better than most give them credit for. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 07:02:52 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Mga Karunungan Sa Larong Arnis (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #164 - 13 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Gatpuno, Your translation of the title is correct. However, taking the word "Larong Arnis" in context, "Knowledge in the Practice of Arnis" is more appropriate. My personal translation is "Skills Involved in the Practice of Arnis". Skills here includes both mental and physical. Sometimes, there are Tagalog words that will need one or more paragraphs of English to translate. Regards. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/25/2007 9:29:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: About the question what "Yambao's art, is clearly said it on the Title "Mga Karunungan ng Larung Arnis" (Knowledge's in Play Arnis). ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 08:04:56 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Dan Inosanto (Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 14 #165 - 3 msgs) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi, I (and two of my students) went to the premises of Unique Publications in 1983 for the photoshoot for my book Arnis Lanada. After the photoshoot, Dan Inosanto picked us up from the hotel which was quite a distance from where he was and took us around the area and Venice Beach. He also took us to his school in Marina Del Rey which at the time was getting renovated. To top that, he took us to dinner. He was driving the van. He also gave all three of us signed copies of his books. (Much later, when I had a number of books published I asked one of my students who was originally from CA to give Dan Inosanto 4 books I had authored.) All I know about Dan Inosanto is that he is a very nice and generous person. Of course, he is well known for his martial arts skills and his dedication to the FMA. Regards. APMarinas Sr. In a message dated 5/26/2007 7:22:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: ""FMA is dead in the philippines" (did Guro Inosanto say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it didnt." My office is about to be redone and my books are packed away, so I am working from memory here, but IIRC what he said was "If what they say is true then FMA is dying in the Philippines". In other words HE didn't say it. I think if you take the time to look you will discover that most if not all of the statements attributed to him are clearly him quoting someone else-- so until one goes and looks it up and brings a specific example to the table the , , , ahem , , , "fair" thing to do is not say that he did. TAC, CD ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 10:55:09 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Inosanto, Chicago School Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Marc Denny, First of all, thank you for the nice gesture DVD. Nicely done and lots of good info. May I asked where did you read this info. On May 1997, I wrote an article in Inside Kung Fu. In title Arnis de Mano Dead in the Philippines? Contrary to what Billy Bryant article "FMA is dead in the Philippines and the new home for Eskrimador is America. But I dont want to jump to the conclusion that you read the same article I wrote, I also mentioned there the fact of the Arnis is well praticed in the Philippines. I also memntioned that you cant expect everyone is practicing Arnis in the Philippines. Even in japan, not everybody practice "Karate" or "Jutisu", not all in "Korea" practiced Tae Kwon Do, it make sense only not all Filipino practice Arnis, Eskrima or Kali for that matter. I have mentioned I have atmost respect for "Guro Inosanto" I have many times show gratitude for his Pioneering the PMA. Its make it easy ofr us to go out there and promote our own version of the FMA. I have not read anyone saying that Guro Inosanto is saying that FMA is Dead in the Philippines. Its so obvious not, becaused the Canetes is well known practicing the arts and other masters. My family is practiced the arts up to now over there, so I assume that Guro Inosanto would say anything on those term. I agree with you with all count, that we are should be more thankfull to him. I have to give that to him. He earned it and he live with it. Thank you for bringgin it up though. If anything I am the first one to contradict that post, or article if I ever read it. To the person looking for Chicago FMA, Search for the BARABAY, Group, promoting Inosato Kali, LAMECO and Garimot Arnis. Email: Guro Mike Eugenio at ekim60618@yahoo.com or visit www.sagasa.com. He also teach in Dragenberg place once in a while. The group is nice and friendly. See Guro Eugene Amante, Guro Dennis Duria, Guro Mike Albandia. Either one of them can help you. Their in the same group. Guro Dennis Duria Teaches also the Herman Suwands Arts. Off-course you can check my brother in the arts. Maha Guro Nate Defensor of Defnsor method, he teaches, Serrad, Pikiti-Tirsia, Silat and more. Here is Mike Eugenio School Elite Martial Arts & Fitness 4003 Golf Road Skokie, IL 60076 773.318.8525 Guro March Denny, again thank you, if you are refering to my article, I am sorry but I dont see anything here I mentioned Guro Inosanto. I have the article on my desk. Hope is not my article.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com Woof All: ""FMA is dead in the philippines" (did Guro Inosanto say this? i read it somewhere) he is only telling what was told to him. he deserve respect as an elder in the FMA community, i dont believe many of us will have as many students as we do today if it wasnt for his work for the FMA arts. at the same time, its not fair to blame him for all the begative stuff we see today. but a lot of it came from him, and its not fair to act like it didnt." My office is about to be redone and my books are packed away, so I am working from memory here, but IIRC what he said was "If what they say is true then FMA is dying in the Philippines". In other words HE didn't say it. I think if you take the time to look you will discover that most if not all of the statements attributed to him are clearly him quoting someone else-- so until one goes and looks it up and brings a specific example to the table the , , , ahem , , , "fair" thing to do is not say that he did. TAC, CD -- __--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 25 May 2007 19:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: rterry@idiom.com (Ray) Subject: [Eskrima] just the blade Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > ... when he says KALI is the mother art he doesn't mean it is the > progenitor but a term that was used to encompass the totality of the art. > Escrima and Arnis are Spanish terms and are often used to just encompass > stick fighting or stick and knife fighting. There is lots more to FMA then > just that part of the art, ... I suspect there may be a few, but I have yet to see an eskrima or arnis school that only teaches the stick, knife and sword. True, the blade is often the first priority, but then it should be, imho. Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com -- __--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Kes41355@aol.com Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 16:21:17 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Chicago training Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, I second Ray's recommendation here. I remember Nate from the old days (1980's) at Degerberg's, lo those many years ago. Nate is very knowledgeable, and has an impressive lineage. Kim Satterfield In a message dated 5/26/2007 7:21:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > I have a friend that is moving to Chicago next month. Does anyone know > any schools or instructors to train with in the Chicago ares? Check out Nate Defensor. http://www.defensormethod.com/ Ray Terry rterry@idiom.com ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 26 May 2007 19:52:02 -0400 From: bgdebuque To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The Ilonggo/Hiligaynon version of KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Interesting... In Ilonggo or Hiligaynon, "Kali" is also "to dig up something" [i.e. it is a VERB].... This, to "dig up Kamote (Visayan Sweet Potato)" in Ilonggo is: "magKALI sang kamote"... To "dig up peanuts" is: "magKALI sang mani"... This is not too far from the "man-made ditch" meaning of "KALI" in the Indonesian and Malaysian language... The only difference is that it is used as a NOUN [i.e. the end product of human digging instead of the act of digging itself]... >Message: 7 >Date: Wed, 23 May 2007 18:33:16 -0700 (PDT) >From: Daniel Arola >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali the mystery term >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Kali(as it is pronounced), in the Ilocano dialect means to "dig". >It's still only a word to me. Not some "proclaimed" word of authority to fuss over. The word is here >now and we use it today. >I use it, because I DIG IT('not because I'm i-loco). >-Daniel --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2007: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest